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20 Years of Search: Insider Tactics and the Evolution of PPC with Brad Geddes — Transcript

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0:08Brad, [music] uh welcome to this
0:10fantastic chat where we we're
0:11celebrating Search Engine Land um
0:13turning 20.
0:15Excellent. Thanks for having me. It's uh
0:17it's been quite a ride over the years.
0:19It has. It has. And you honestly one of
0:22those folks that you know, with the
0:24different other folks that I've chatted
0:26to, they mentioned you as being one of
0:28the first to also really make an impact
0:31on their career kind of thing. I mean,
0:33you you must have been like
0:36I like how how much do you remember
0:38about as to that beginning stage 20
0:40years ago? What was the industry like?
0:42Were you already in it or were you also
0:44just about starting? No, so I started
0:47SEO in '96,
0:50'97, and I started paid search in '98.
0:54So, I I'd been involved in this quite a
0:57while before Search Engine Land ever
0:58launched. Yeah. Yeah. So, did is does it
1:01feel like there was a before and after
1:04of like Search Engine Land or or even
1:06the time of Search Engine Land compared
1:08to when you started and after Search
1:10Engine Land and like other publications
1:12really started making their mark?
1:14You know what? Yes, but a lot of it had
1:16to do actually with Larry Page as CEO
1:19cuz he started as CEO
1:21and Google was actually terrible at
1:24support. They weren't good at
1:25communications so forth, right? And then
1:27Eric Schmidt took over
1:29roughly when Search Engine Land
1:31launched. I don't remember exactly the
1:33years he started. And Google became much
1:36more open company. They actually became
1:37more people-focused company. Tim
1:39Armstrong took over sales. And Search
1:42Engine Land sort of started when Google
1:45was being a lot more open with resources
1:48and dev days and so forth. I think that
1:49made a big difference.
1:51Um you know, previous to Search Engine
1:53Land
1:54a lot of the news was news. It wasn't
1:59actionable in tactics. And I think, you
2:02know, Search Engine Land
2:04and a few others, right, went down that
2:05route of let's just not report news, but
2:08let's also give more best practices cuz
2:11at that point in time
2:13most of those conversations were in
2:15places where it was more foreign-based
2:17system of chatting as opposed to as
2:19social didn't really exist yet. We had
2:20MySpace at best.
2:22Um right, it MySpace.
2:25Oh gosh.
2:26Right, and so I think that, you know,
2:28let's blend these two together was a big
2:29thing Search Engine Land did well. Yeah,
2:32amazing, amazing.
2:34Um
2:34and in terms of like your career, where
2:37you were at in terms of working in SEO
2:39and PPC,
2:41um was that what what did you like come
2:44out of college and you were like, "Yep,
2:45SEO PPC SEO is the one for you." Or was
2:48it was it a bit of like a tangent off to
2:51something else?
2:52>> Oh, you guys are all babies, right? I'm
2:54older than most of you in this industry
2:55still. So, like, you know, I was in um a
2:59completely different industry for years
3:01and it was and I just got burnt out. I
3:04was like, "Okay, I can't do this
3:05anymore." and I just quit. Um I had
3:08already learned website design for fun.
3:10Just, you know, and I'm like, and I saw
3:12affiliate marketing and went, "Well, how
3:14hard can this be to do affiliate
3:15marketing, right?" This is back in the
3:16'90s, so life was much easier then. And
3:19so I really started my career
3:22as an at-home affiliate.
3:24And I was, you know, one of eBay's and
3:26Amazon's top affiliates for years and so
3:28forth. And so,
3:30you know, to me paid search originally
3:31was just more real estate control on the
3:34website. I'm sorry, on the search
3:36result. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
3:38wow. Okay. And like, when
3:41from the beginning was there a bit of a
3:45wow, this is an amazing thing no one has
3:48seen before or did that happen later for
3:51you? Like, at so what point were you
3:53like, holy heck, this is like this this
3:55is the future. This is like amazing for
3:57anyone that has a product and want
3:59visibility from people from all over the
4:01world? So, I I that that really comes in
4:04'98. Bill Grossmann launched um at the
4:07time goto.com, which became Overture
4:09Yahoo Search Marketing. And it's really
4:11the the start of paid search as a
4:13pay-per-click system. Yeah. And to be
4:16able to put values on clicks as opposed
4:20to impressions was a huge turning point.
4:23So, I think a lot of it stems from, you
4:25know, Bill Grossmann. And not a people
4:26who know who he is
4:28in what he did to the industry in making
4:31a new pricing model essentially. Yeah.
4:33Yeah, absolutely. And like how at what
4:37point for you did you feel Google was
4:39making their mark as being
4:42the leader in this field?
4:45You know what? It probably wasn't until
4:46like '06 or '07 cuz when Google first
4:49launched, everyone knew Overture and
4:51FindWhat and so forth. And most people
4:53hated Google when they launched cuz
4:55Google had this notion of ad groups. It
4:57was more complicated. It was more
4:59time-consuming.
5:01Cuz you know, if we if we look back at
5:04that era,
5:05marketing for small businesses was 1 to
5:083 hours per year with the Yellow Page
5:10rep. If you're a mid-sized, it was,
5:13okay, let's add 1 to 3 hours a month
5:16with our newspaper rep. Right? And if
5:18you're a giant, you had a CMR to manage
5:19stuff. And so, you know, when Google and
5:22Overture and stuff come along and
5:23they're like, no, no, this hour per year
5:25thing doesn't work. This is per week.
5:28Right? There's a lot of pushback in What
5:30do you mean we don't have to be
5:31full-time marketers in our careers,
5:34right? That was not a thing for many
5:36people. Right. And so, you know, a lot
5:38of that pushback and and so forth was
5:40actually a time commitment
5:43when conversion tracking was mostly
5:46unused and it was used only by
5:48sophisticated people. It was third-party
5:51tools until Google launched their own
5:53system
5:54gosh, '05, '06 or something. They
5:56launched their own. Um and and so,
5:59you know, it it was a big change and
6:02people weren't a big fan of Google. Um
6:05and
6:06it was really their user-centric
6:09approach to search which got their
6:13eyeballs and advertisers were more drug
6:16along and this is where the eyeballs
6:17live as opposed to adopting it because
6:20of users. So, you know, Google and
6:23search did change the game, but it
6:25wasn't cuz their ad system. You know,
6:28the ad system developed because
6:29advertisers went there because their
6:30search was so good. I mean, that was the
6:32whole, you know, link system and you
6:34know, let's use citations as opposed to,
6:36you know, all the other ranking factors
6:38before that.
6:39No, absolutely. So,
6:42it it it's so so strange how marketers
6:44can be like a bit we get stuck with with
6:48doing something a certain way instead of
6:49we say this so many times, go where your
6:52customers are. We we heard that that's
6:54like the basic 101. And then it's like
6:57even though, you know, there's proof of
6:59like, yeah, that's where your customers
7:00are. They're like, oh, like, do you do
7:03you find that strange? Like as an
7:04advertiser, how has that How have you
7:06been able to evolve with different
7:09changes like in your in your long span
7:11in in this career?
7:12>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, step one was
7:17because results are measurable, you can
7:20now put a financial impact on hiring
7:24someone to do online only, digital only,
7:27right? Before, you'd measure phone calls
7:30through a yellow page company or
7:31something, right? But And and so, step
7:33one was really just how that how we
7:36accepted time and what that meant. Yeah.
7:39>> Um you know, that that's a a first step.
7:41And then, when you sort of look at
7:43evolution of of paid search in Google,
7:47it comes into people being
7:49marrying creatives and analytics, cuz
7:51you used to have here's our creative
7:53team,
7:54we may have an analytics team, we
7:56probably don't. Mhm.
7:58>> And then, you know, a discipline like
8:00paid search says,
8:02"Be analytical and be creative in the
8:04same brain." Which most people aren't,
8:06right? They're left or right-brained.
8:08And and so, a lot of it is just
8:10accepting that there is a different
8:13amount of time, but we can quantify it
8:15and how you merge your brain together
8:18almost in in accepting this industry.
8:20Yeah, I know, absolutely. And like, how
8:22much are you still like in the
8:25platforms, you know, knowing how things
8:28work and like how has that How has that
8:30like the UI in terms of how advertisers
8:33have to really be technical with um
8:36Google's platform? Like how has that
8:37changed? Yeah, so I'm still in the UI
8:40quite often. Um now, we're a tool
8:42provider, right? So,
8:44I would prefer to do things in the API,
8:46but sometimes we have to check what
8:48Google thinks via the the UI and so
8:50forth. Sure. Um
8:52UI is very slow to work with. And we all
8:55know the errors of like, you know,
8:57"Refresh this page." Or "We couldn't get
8:59this." Or, you know, "Your download will
9:01happen in 10 minutes." And then you got
9:02to re- run that five times. Yeah. So,
9:06the platforms, because they probably
9:08have more data or more users, they're
9:10slower than they used to be. Mhm. Um and
9:13it's amazing to think
9:14the platforms were faster in 2025
9:18than they are sorry, 2005
9:21Okay.
9:21>> are in 2026.
9:23Right? You know what I mean? Yeah, you
9:25were so it was so much quicker and
9:27there's a lot more settings now. Yeah.
9:29>> So, you almost need a degree to navigate
9:31where does this setting exist, right?
9:34Yes. I think with it does remind me of
9:36like a post Jill Saskin girls like
9:38literally posted today about how you
9:40need to click campaign three times
9:42before you get to campaign and it's like
9:44how you get there and that's exactly
9:46what you're trying to say as to even
9:47though we are technically further in the
9:49technology, there are things that are
9:50still slower to do because of the new
9:53infrastructure of like how Google wants
9:55to make it.
9:57But also so like bringing things to you
9:59know the celebrant search engine land,
10:01what you know what was the search
10:03industry like when search engine land
10:05launched in your opinion?
10:07>> search engine land launched
10:09it had been more so that was 06, right?
10:12It had been more adopted to mainstream
10:15which meant
10:16you had a whole lot of people living in
10:18basements originally in jeans and
10:20t-shirts like I'm dressed today
10:22um you're managing stuff
10:24and it started to put on suits
10:27and get money thrown at it. Okay. So
10:31this is when a party was a private yacht
10:36rented by Yahoo or they rented all of
10:39Great America or Google dances and
10:43there was a lot of still you know VC
10:46money, Google went public in 04 I
10:48believe. Um and so there was so much
10:51money flowing around it that didn't
10:53always have to be
10:55accounted for because it was so growth
10:58mindset. Yeah. That
11:01it was you know
11:02oversized salaries and oversized parties
11:05a lot of it. And it it was getting
11:09basics right from a a practical
11:11standpoint cuz a lot of people were
11:13scaling and if you can't scale the
11:15basics right then you just run into more
11:17and more problems everywhere right as
11:19you do things. Yeah. Yeah, no
11:21absolutely. And like what were some of
11:24the you feel the biggest misconceptions
11:27back in about 2006 2008 about
11:30as to how paid search worked.
11:34Gosh, um
11:36so the misconceptions
11:38were often
11:40around not really understanding
11:44business processes
11:47how conversions flowed, what was an
11:50actual CPM. And Google launched
11:52conversion optimizer in I believe it was
11:55'08, which was their first foray into
11:57CPA bidding. You had to have 100
11:59conversions per month per campaign to
12:02even try it, right? Minimum numbers. And
12:05and a lot of people didn't even know
12:06what their CPA should be, let alone, you
12:10know, how you do bidding, right? Bidding
12:11was just a lot of Excel math. Yeah.
12:13>> And so what paid search forced a lot of
12:17companies to do
12:19was understand
12:21values of events.
12:23Um what is a call actually worth? What
12:26is this stuff? And so, you know, paid
12:29search almost went back to business
12:30basics, cuz again, it's not like I
12:32bought a yellow page ad, I got 1,000
12:33phone calls, and hey, I'm still in
12:35business.
12:36It's now I got to pay for that click. I
12:37got to pay for that call. What's it
12:40worth to me? And I I think paid search
12:43brought business metrics along quite a
12:46ways in what small and mid-size business
12:49owners under
12:51had to realize they needed to
12:52understand. Um cuz a lot of
12:54misconceptions were around
12:56you know,
12:57the actual value um of what was
13:00happening and and how to really
13:02understand the actual value of stuff.
13:05Absolutely. Okay. And do you feel like
13:08the like Search Engine Land articles at
13:10that time kind of broached those kind of
13:13topics? Absolutely.
13:16Right? I mean, like when, you know,
13:18Google bought Urchin, turned it into
13:19Google Analytics, right? I mean, that's
13:21Search Engine Land. Um Danny Sullivan
13:23was the still primary writers back in
13:25the time. Danny was, you know,
13:27right? Chris Sherman, Danny Sullivan,
13:29and we got to give nods to the greats
13:31who really pushed Search Engine Land you
13:33know, along.
13:34Um And they were, you know, often
13:37focused on the big changes at Google
13:41that affected your life. You know, Danny
13:43did a lot with updates, right? Organic
13:46updates and what did that mean to you as
13:49opposed to here's what Google's doing
13:51now.
13:52And then what do we need to do to adapt
13:55to that? And that's where Search Engine
13:56Land brought a lot of good, you know,
13:58that tactical information back into
13:59foray of marrying with the news.
14:02And like just trying to go you know, my
14:04next question was very relative to the
14:07you know, relevant to you know, what you
14:08just said in terms of like what do you
14:10feel like Search Engine Land was doing
14:11well that others weren't doing? Was it
14:13just like basically I just what you've
14:14just said or is there like anything else
14:16specific that I think they had better
14:18relationships with platforms than others
14:22did. And that allowed a bit more
14:25exclusivity in what they were getting. I
14:28mean, when you look at
14:30on the organic side, there were really I
14:32mean, two people who had really tight
14:34relationships on the organic side. You
14:36had, you know, Brett Tabke at
14:38WebmasterWorld and Danny Sullivan at
14:40Search Engine Land. And you know, they
14:42they were probably the two leaders in
14:47talking to Google about updates on the
14:50organic side. And then
14:52you know, Search Engine Land I think
14:53took more of the lead in covering the
14:55paid side cuz paid was often, you know,
14:58the stepchild that was sort of left
14:59aside for years, right? And I think
15:02Search Engine Land adopted that part
15:04faster than a lot of others did and we
15:06also need to cover this side and get
15:08into it cuz that's where so much money's
15:09flowing into. Yeah, no, absolutely.
15:12Yeah, I mean, they made billions out of
15:14it ultimately billions. So definitely
15:17something which you need to focus on.
15:19What do you think do you feel like now
15:20just moving to like talking about the
15:22industry as in general again like what
15:24do you feel was a moment that changed
15:27PPC like forever like there was there
15:29was like that inflection of a before and
15:31after this is what PPC was like before
15:33but this has now changed it Yeah I I
15:36think there's two
15:39points I can talk about right one was
15:42it's actually organic base but it
15:43affected paid search it was when you had
15:47the panda penguin pigeon the animals
15:49attacked updates which made organic as
15:53much about disavowing links as building
15:56links and at that point in time a lot of
15:59people did both still
16:01and I think that update made it so
16:03people realized
16:05a generalist is going to be a tough spot
16:07going forward and I want to specialize
16:09more in one or the other
16:11right and and I think that almost did a
16:13split in careers for a lot of people and
16:16that was sort of a huge one
16:18um
16:20two was in when you get into time
16:23management
16:25the automated bidding finally working
16:28you know because when you think of
16:29accounts
16:30if you test ads you make a new landing
16:32page it can be beneficial for months or
16:35years even right
16:37a bid is only as good until you reset a
16:39bid so it's transient work and it was
16:42Excel formulas people didn't bid as much
16:44as they needed to
16:46um and you know a lot of scripts were
16:48written you know basic bid rules and
16:50things that we don't even find anymore
16:51like gap surfing and bid jamming words
16:53that most people don't even you know
16:54know exist
16:56and
16:57when bidding became even you know semi
17:00automated it wasn't always great but at
17:01least it was somewhat automated
17:03it freed up massive amounts of time to
17:06be more creative and strategic in
17:07accounts so I I think the audit yeah
17:10bidding automation is probably one of
17:12the biggest things ever in paid search
17:14Yeah absolutely and especially you know
17:17for the fact that it now wasn't just
17:18about
17:19who has the most money. It was also
17:21about traffic. It needed to be
17:24strategic. You need to be to be the one
17:26with the with the better offer.
17:28>> And that's, you know, when Google
17:29launched and they they launched the
17:32notion of So, before Google,
17:35highest CPC won the auction, right?
17:37You're going to bid 100 bucks a click,
17:39you won the auction cuz you couldn't bid
17:40over 99.99. Um and then Google launched
17:43with the notion originally of
17:45relevance of click-through rates times
17:47bid was your position before they
17:49entered this quality score.
17:51You know, that
17:52relevancy cost component is probably
17:55Google's biggest mark Mhm. on paid
17:58search.
17:59Mhm. Absolutely.
18:02And what was the first time you feel
18:03that you saw Google like take the
18:06clicks? Like really just blow every
18:09other competitor in terms of like, you
18:11know, Yahoo being out of the water.
18:14So,
18:16originally we had, you know, Overture
18:18became Yahoo Search Marketing, became
18:20Yahoo Panama, etc.
18:23And then they were,
18:26you know, going to Is it sunset
18:29originally and then Microsoft came in
18:30the game? Essentially, there was a play
18:31between Microsoft and Yahoo that it was
18:34either
18:36Google was going to win or they'd have a
18:38true competitor.
18:40And Google won. Um it really is what it
18:43came down to, right? I mean, So, Yahoo
18:45had their moment. Microsoft had their
18:48moment. There were these these couple
18:50moments that the clicks could have
18:53shifted different ways. Yeah. Microsoft
18:55launched Bing with
18:56What was it? A $100 million ad campaign
18:59and it made less than like a 1% search
19:01share difference long-term. Right?
19:04And that was that user loyalty Google
19:06had built in over years. They're They're
19:08good at it.
19:09If if Microsoft had contacted you to to
19:13be there like to like the a CMO inside
19:16of like, "What should we have done
19:18differently?" Do you have any thoughts?
19:21You know, so I So, Tamara Tamara Baker
19:24was one of the early people who built
19:26Microsoft Ads. And I actually I met with
19:28her multiple times out in out in New
19:30York. But that was the Microsoft Ads
19:32side, which I think they did a pretty
19:33good job like launching a new product.
19:35Yeah. It was
19:37changing users' mindset over why
19:41Microsoft.
19:42And that was really the problem cuz if
19:45we We're going back to the days where we
19:47still had browser wars.
19:49Um Netscape wasn't completely dead yet.
19:53Yeah. Um Firefox was still, you know, in
19:55the mix here as as decent, you know, re
19:58Um and Microsoft was the default search
20:00engine, but they were the
20:02the company you loved to hate, right? At
20:04that point in time. They were the big
20:06bear up in Seattle. People did not like
20:08Microsoft. They all started with a new
20:10an M money sign.
20:12And
20:13so they launched this
20:15to a group of people
20:18who were kind of sick of big corporate
20:20world. And Google was the new fun rogue
20:22startup, right? Even though they were
20:23public at that point in time.
20:24>> Yeah. And And I think that was part of
20:27the problems, right? So,
20:29if you look at the last 5 to 10 years,
20:31people like Microsoft again. I mean,
20:33they they generally like Microsoft
20:35products. They like what Microsoft does.
20:38But it's hard to change a habit. Yeah.
20:41>> And so, since Google won the search
20:43habit when we hated Microsoft, I don't
20:46know, you had to change the hearts and
20:48minds of users 20 years ago to have
20:51really done that. And so, I think that
20:53goes well beyond search. That's more of
20:56how people just view Microsoft at that
20:59point in time. Yeah, absolutely.
21:03Now, going back into like, you You you
21:05said that you're you're in in the UI,
21:07you know, your tool really helps people
21:09with tactics and doing things better for
21:11their clients. What's one tactic that,
21:13you know, everyone was using like early
21:15that you now feels ridiculous?
21:18I always hated it, but SKAGs, single
21:20keyword ad groups. I hated SKAGs. It was
21:22super common.
21:25That was a terrible, terrible one.
21:28And you know, now, I mean, we over
21:30segmented for a reason, right? We would
21:33have companies who
21:35would want to change ads by day of the
21:37week based upon current specials. Yeah.
21:39And so, back then, we needed seven
21:41campaigns for this, right? One per day
21:44of the week, or, you know, and so,
21:48we had way more campaigns then than we
21:50do now because we had to cuz of how the
21:53systems worked.
21:55And so, you look back and you say, "You
21:57guys ran a thousand campaigns, right?
21:59For the same, you know, maybe 10,000
22:02keywords. That seems crazy today."
22:04But you needed it then. And so, you
22:07know, that campaign segmentation and
22:09over-engineering,
22:11now you look back and say, "Why?" But
22:13you had to because of how platforms
22:14worked. Yeah. Um something
22:17no one is sad to see go away.
22:19Yeah, absolutely. Like even I I think of
22:22like the SKAGs and it's like, "Oh, can
22:24you imagine? One keyword for like
22:26doesn't make sense." Uh but what is what
22:29Is there any feature that you feel like
22:31was misunderstood that people were
22:34underutilizing, but is not is no longer
22:37can be used?
22:38Oh, no longer can be used, but was
22:40underutilized.
22:41>> Yeah.
22:42Okay, so could be used, but
22:44underutilized.
22:46Um there was a bid method where you
22:50estimated
22:52EC No, the original ECPC, right? The
22:55original one, which was you told Google,
22:57"I want to pay 75 cents a click. I don't
23:00want to figure out if I need to bid $5
23:02to pay $0.75 or I need to bid $3.25 to
23:05pay $0.75. I want to pay $0.75. You do
23:08the math for me. And it was actually a
23:10fantastic bid method.
23:13Most people didn't quite understood how
23:15it worked and so it was never widely
23:16adopted and used. Um that is definitely
23:19one. Yeah.
23:22Geo-targeting we used to be able to do
23:24where we could do radius points. Like we
23:26had a company who was they were a towing
23:28company. So and they had uh a hundred
23:31locations. So we would target purely
23:35interstates, right? We'd like draw like
23:37funny maps around interstates, right? So
23:40that someone could hey, I'm stuck on the
23:42side of road. This ad only shows to
23:44someone who is within like, you know, 3
23:47mi of an interstate cuz their car's
23:48broken down there. That tow truck we
23:51can't do that anymore.
23:52And so I I think there are some things
23:55that
23:56were not used enough. Yeah.
23:59The custom location options where we
24:01could adjust the ads by individual
24:04locations. Mhm. And I know many many of
24:07our clients had almost like when Google
24:10finally sunsetted it, we had several who
24:12reduced their ad spend by 90% because
24:15the efficacy of their ads went down so
24:17amazing from that one feature.
24:20And Google's never replaced that.
24:23Yeah. Microsoft launched with
24:26where you could do um your your ad
24:29variations, the spreadsheet you upload
24:31for for ad variables with audiences.
24:33Google's never had this, right? And so
24:35it's one of those you think like why
24:37wouldn't they have this by now?
24:38Microsoft does. Um but I think, you
24:41know, some of the under utilized ones
24:45that don't exist weren't utilized either
24:47cuz they were misunderstood or Google
24:50just didn't do the marketing well for
24:51them, right? I mean, Google has to do
24:53marketing for new features.
24:55Yeah. Yeah, I don't I other
24:56conversations I've had with other
24:58leaders here have been have been like,
24:59"Yeah, the PR of Google can be a lot
25:01better in terms of how they like share
25:04all the things that is actually
25:05important in their in their features."
25:07So, yeah, for sure.
25:08>> [snorts]
25:08>> Um now, going on to talking about like
25:10say like the culture of search. Um you
25:12know, what do you feel like it was like
25:14in the early days and has that changed
25:17in terms of, you know, you know,
25:18knowledge sharing and where we got our
25:21knowledge from and you know, the
25:23information in terms of how to how to do
25:24things. What was the culture of search?
25:26>> Yeah, so early early on
25:30I think info sharing was greater.
25:33And that's because there weren't a lot
25:35of NDAs and corporate lockdown over what
25:38in-house people could say.
25:40And you know, and I get why, right? You
25:42can't be, you know, Amazon and go say,
25:45"Here's how we manage our accounts." Or
25:46you can't be, you know, I get that. But
25:48early on, there were no such rules. So,
25:51you know, you had a lot more
25:54info sharing on how large accounts
25:56really worked and what scale looked like
25:59than you do now. Um
26:01now you definitely see less of that. I
26:03think there's still I think the industry
26:05as a whole is still amazing at sharing
26:07information. And you know, you get
26:09people from NDA companies to, you know,
26:12dinner, right? It's not a public forum
26:15and there's still a lot of great sharing
26:16that happens. But you know, a lot of it
26:19I think is is been more legal has cut it
26:22back as opposed to the willingness is
26:25there. But I think we have
26:27one of the best industries in terms of
26:31tactic and information sharing.
26:33For sure. And talking about like, you
26:35know, conferences, events, communities,
26:38you know, and especially like early in
26:40the days, which one of them shaped you
26:43you feel feel like shaped your career
26:44that really you really were like very
26:47loyal to
26:48once they hit?
26:50Right. I mean, Search Engine Strategies
26:52originally, right? My first talk in the
26:54pay I'd done public talks before I
26:57joined search community, but my first
27:00public talk in in search was at
27:03WebmasterWorld
27:05in '04 and and that was a great
27:08conference for years and then I'm not
27:10sure what happened to it. It sort of
27:13went its own way there and they sort of
27:15dropped paid search a lot. Then I
27:17started SES. I did my first SES talk in
27:20'04 as well.
27:22And of course search engine strategies
27:23for those you don't know became Search
27:26Engine Land, right? And it sort of
27:27morphed like the same people sort of
27:29went with this when there were
27:30acquisitions and name changes and etc.
27:34Yeah, so forth.
27:35And so
27:37I spoke at the very first Search Engine
27:40Land in Seattle in 2007.
27:43Wow.
27:44And so I can no longer count. I'd have
27:48to do some real math on how many
27:51search SMXs I've spoken at over the
27:53years, but it's
27:55I mean it's well into double digits
27:57somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And
28:00especially like the variations that they
28:02did, you know, whether whether it was
28:03advanced or next and and you know, the
28:06other ones. So yeah, they've been really
28:08great.
28:09Now looking at talking about again,
28:11coming back to platform power in terms
28:12of like Google's kind of chokehold I'd
28:15say on our industry. Like, you know, how
28:18has Google actually now now changed the
28:20definition of success in search?
28:24Well, that's a great question. So, you
28:27know, one of the
28:29issues people sort of thought of early
28:32on and and Google would bring this up is
28:35if everyone has the same keyword, the
28:39same ad, and the same landing page. Like
28:41just make that assumption for a second.
28:42Mhm. Then business margins, business
28:47loyalty, upsell potential is the
28:50tiebreaker in who can actually win that
28:53auction. Mhm. Um and so
28:56Google's, you know, stranglehold in a
28:58way
29:00is forcing businesses to move margin
29:05from marketing into how do we get more
29:09value from customers? And, you know,
29:12it's
29:13And that's how a a, you know, open
29:16auction system is always going to work
29:17long-term, right? It's, you know, who
29:19can pay to be there. So, you have to be
29:21able to extract more value from this.
29:24And we've hit a saturation point in most
29:26industries. Most people are in Google
29:28Ads. Right? And so, the question is is
29:33how do you stand out? Which I would
29:35still argue ads are very under poorly
29:38written in Google and there's a lot of
29:40ways to still be better than your
29:42competition just in your Google Ads
29:43account, regardless of of other business
29:45practices. Mhm.
29:46>> But when you look, you know, beyond
29:48that, it gets into Google's forcing
29:50businesses, if they want to stay
29:52relevant,
29:54to optimize internal processes or to cut
29:57staff and have other ways of increasing
30:00margins. Which could be good or bad,
30:02right? Depending on just your take of of
30:04the industry, but
30:05you know, bidding in a way is
30:08corporate margin management as opposed
30:12to just your Google Ads account. Yeah,
30:15absolutely. And I don't think
30:16necessarily a lot of advertisers
30:18look at it that way. Sometimes we can be
30:20just very like siloed into like how is
30:23paid search working is my real estate
30:25good? And it's like the And I'm like,
30:27guys, if the business is not seeing your
30:30value,
30:31yeah, you're you're missing that
30:33connection. I can't count the companies
30:36one like that
30:37their Google Ads account went from
30:39average to great Mhm. because of
30:42retraining telephone sales staff. Right.
30:46>> And it had nothing to do with actually
30:47changing a single setting in Google.
30:49Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It can be as
30:51simple as that. Simple and hard. I think
30:53that sometimes like we you understand
30:55like cuz sometimes you you know you
30:57you've got some systems in place. You've
30:59got some departments do things a certain
31:01way kind of thing. And sometimes it's
31:03just a little change can go a long way
31:06with what's actually going to affect
31:07your paid search performance.
31:09Uh so what's one decision would you say
31:11that Google made that did change your
31:13business overnight?
31:16So it was
31:18in '05
31:20when it became you could only have
31:24one
31:25ad per domain on a search result page.
31:30So if you remember back then
31:33if you owned, you know, eight different
31:36Amazon affiliate sites and 12 eBay
31:39affiliate sites
31:41then you would have Amazon every link
31:43would for a commercial term was Amazon
31:45or eBay, but only one is usually owned
31:47by Amazon or eBay. Then people like me
31:49might have four to eight of the other
31:51results on the page, right? Um and cuz
31:53you could run ads directly to Amazon
31:55even though it wasn't, you know, and not
31:57actually have to have an in between
31:59site. Um that was a significant change
32:03cuz it forced affiliates
32:05to offer landing pages and then value
32:08for that landing page of why there was a
32:11disruption
32:12between a search and Amazon eBay take
32:15your pick that had to add value to still
32:18exist in the equation.
32:20I mean that was sort of that was a huge
32:21change.
32:22Huge. Okay. And talking about huge
32:25changes, um AI, our big world of AI,
32:28that's what everybody very much wants to
32:30talk about these days. Our people are
32:32still just asking the question, how do I
32:35I AI in paid search? That is still out
32:36being asked in my community this week
32:38and my brain is like, I I don't know
32:40what you're asking there. You need to go
32:41a little bit deeper. But I So, what's
32:44what do you feel for you is your biggest
32:45mis- is the biggest misconception about
32:47AI search right now?
32:49That AI can run your account. And people
32:52think like I can give my account to AI,
32:54it can audit it, and it can do stuff,
32:55right? Like that's definitely one. That
32:58I should just give it stuff and copy
32:59paste what it tells me, right? Terrible,
33:02right? Your brain is so important. AI
33:04can write some good ads, it can write
33:05some really bad ads.
33:08And essentially,
33:10if someone said, "How much should we use
33:12AI?" I would say, "Google
33:14recommendations are based on AI. Would
33:17you ever go into your account and hit a
33:19accept all on every recommendation
33:21Google makes?"
33:23Right? Cuz if you'll do that, then you
33:25could have AI run your account. If you
33:27say no to any of them, you can't.
33:29Yeah. I don't I don't know any other
33:32like, you know, decision or feature that
33:35united the industry more than don't auto
33:39apply all recommendations. Everybody
33:42were unanimous like and all the loads of
33:44things that it depends, it depends. Auto
33:47apply recommendations, everybody goes,
33:49"No. Don't do [laughter] that." I love
33:52it. I love it. But that's AI in action.
33:56Yeah. Yeah. What In terms of now like
33:59looking in terms of a bit of like uh you
34:00know, uh crystal ball, what do you think
34:03like let's say the next 20 years of you
34:0620 years of search will reward? What
34:08will What will people What will be
34:09rewarded? So, what should people start
34:11doing that will be rewarded in the next
34:13like 20 years or so?
34:16Creativity and tactics.
34:19I mean, in its fundamentals,
34:22marketing is about connecting with
34:24people. It's about understanding people.
34:28And so, to give a quick story, right?
34:30I'm going to go to monkeys real quick.
34:31This will fun. So, you know, a company
34:33did this study
34:35that basically said, here are a bunch of
34:37rhesus monkeys, here are food
34:40containers,
34:42here's a picture of a dominant monkey, a
34:43sexy monkey, and a preena, which is a
34:45sub
34:47a sub monkey,
34:48on a page, get in line, and pick your
34:50food.
34:51Most people most monkeys went to the
34:53sexy monkey, second most line is
34:55dominant, and of course the preena is
34:56the the smallest line.
34:58That's a human decision.
35:00You know what AI would do? It would say,
35:03well, hey, that the preena monkey has
35:04the shortest line, I should go there.
35:06The dominant monkey has the second
35:08shortest line, I should then go there.
35:10The sexy monkey has the longest line, I
35:12shouldn't put anyone there. So, the AI
35:14makes the opposite decision of a human.
35:17Right? Fundamentally, until an AI buys
35:19from an AI, if there's a human in the
35:22equation,
35:23you're connecting to a human.
35:25And that connection point
35:29is critical. Right? Especially right now
35:32when we sort of see a lot of AI pushback
35:33and we're actually seeing a lot of
35:34people sort of pull back from AI usage.
35:37Um
35:38and then tactics, right? I mean, which
35:40which has a lot of shapes, whether
35:41there's business optimization, tactics
35:43in how we are creative in our marketing,
35:46but you know, if your job is just to
35:48push buttons, you know what? We have
35:49different buttons to push than we did
35:50years ago. There's less buttons to push
35:53than years ago in a way. So, button
35:55pushers don't get rewarded long-term.
35:57But creativity and strategy does.
36:01Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I I yeah yeah,
36:03you couldn't have put it any better.
36:06Um if you could go back 10 to 15 years,
36:08what would you tell your younger self?
36:12Buy more Google stock.
36:15I bought [laughter] a bunch of stock
36:16when they launched, right? In '04. I
36:19would say buy even more of it.
36:24I love it. That's that's practical.
36:25Practical.
36:27>> [laughter]
36:28>> Anything specifically to do with the
36:30actual search industry?
36:32>> [laughter]
36:35>> I'm like, we get it, great. Make money,
36:38that's that's important, but it doesn't
36:40apply, yeah.
36:41>> [laughter]
36:43>> You know, I so if I went back 10 years
36:46and said, "What should I change about
36:47the What should I tell myself now?"
36:50I information stuff changes so quickly.
36:54What was important 10 years ago
36:58outside of ads isn't. So, the one
37:01fundamental, which has always been sort
37:03of near and dear to me, is ad group
37:05organization has mattered for
37:07since Google launched in in '04.
37:10Right? So, we have accounts that have
37:12these same ad groups as 20 years ago.
37:15They haven't had to reorganize. They've
37:17had new ads because, of course, ads
37:19change and formats change, right? Yeah.
37:21And if you're going to do a massive
37:23account, your ad group organization has
37:25been evergreen. Campaign tactics change,
37:27bid tactics change, but that fundamental
37:31structure hasn't changed in 20 years.
37:34Um but outside of that,
37:36knowing that RSAs are coming doesn't
37:38help you. Knowing that Google's going to
37:40add modified broad and then get rid of
37:42modified broad, you still needed it to
37:44use it when it mattered. Right? So,
37:47you know, that that data searches
37:49whatever's new, you have to test it
37:51then, and it doesn't mean it was good or
37:53bad 10 years ago isn't today. No.
37:56>> So,
37:57you know, creativity always matters,
38:00business optimization always matters, um
38:03really understanding analytics and
38:06conversion flow really matters. Those
38:08fundamentals have been important, and
38:10you could tell someone, "You know what?
38:13Learning about marketing automation and
38:15CRM integration will help you out for a
38:16decade." Very true statement. But when
38:19it comes to the tactics of managing
38:21accounts,
38:23or 10 years ago may not work today, but
38:25it did work 10 years ago. So, I don't
38:27some of those don't cross over quite as
38:29much.
38:30What are you the proudest of?
38:33In terms of industry, your career, and
38:35what you've done in the industry.
38:40Gosh.
38:41Um
38:43I think it's
38:45working in scale, whether it's, you
38:48know, at analysis as a platform that
38:50works at scale, helping a lot of people.
38:52Um back in '06, we built a system we had
38:56you know, 42,000 paid search clients,
38:58100,000 SEO clients, and 660,000
39:00businesses, right? And so, like
39:04understanding scale and how that really
39:06works um is a good one.
39:09Um
39:10I've been an educator in this industry
39:12for years. I'm in
39:14I love going out to dinner random places
39:18and someone like, "Hey, can I bring some
39:19friends along?" I'm like, "Sure." And
39:21it'll be someone who took a class 15
39:23years ago who now runs, you know, their
39:25own company or something, right? And so,
39:27I I think my education over the years is
39:31probably something, you know, if I
39:32really thought about it. I'm not a big
39:34braggart personally, but um
39:37I I I think they'd be the education and
39:40just putting out tactics and not saying
39:42this is what you do,
39:44but here are things to consider and then
39:46use your own brain to decide if this is
39:49useful in your situation or not.
39:52Absolutely. All right. Rapid-fire
39:54questions. So, this is about like, yeah,
39:57eight and one questions that's just like
39:58one thing about something. So, first,
40:01one update that changed everything.
40:06It would still be the Panda, Penguin,
40:07Pigeon for me cuz it made me focus on
40:09SEO and I I focused on paid search and I
40:11dropped SEO after that.
40:14Okay.
40:15Um one tool you couldn't live without.
40:19Analytics.com cuz I built it and that's
40:21what I use to manage accounts.
40:24Not surprised. Not surprised at all. Um,
40:27one tactic that died.
40:31Um, scags, thankfully.
40:33>> Mhm.
40:34Yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, one myth that
40:38you hate.
40:41Um, that
40:45pinning and ad strength matter for ad
40:48rank position and quality score. They
40:50have They're not related and I hate
40:52those myths.
40:53Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, interesting.
40:56Um, one prediction you got wrong.
41:01Um, I thought that mobile would occur
41:05faster than it did and it took about
41:07three years. Like even Google got this
41:09wrong, right? The year that mobile took
41:11like five years longer than everyone
41:13thought it would.
41:14Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, mobile. Yeah,
41:16and yeah, like voice search. I don't
41:18know. That was always like in the same
41:20kind of vein in in terms of thought
41:22processes. One pre- One prediction you
41:24did get right.
41:26Voice search. I did not think this was
41:28going to take off when everyone thought
41:29it did, right? And voice search I'm like
41:31and and it's not going to be its own
41:33separate thing. It's just going to be
41:34part of how we do search queries and
41:36everything else. So, I thought voice
41:37search was overblown and I was right
41:39about that one.
41:40Nice. Nice. Um, one thing that Google
41:44never admits.
41:47How the world actually works. They live
41:50in there, this is how we think it works
41:52and we're going to talk about everything
41:53we're going to say is how things work in
41:55an ideal world with our best case
41:56studies ever as opposed to this is the
41:59true reality of how things work today.
42:03Um, I know it's supposed to be quick
42:04rapid fire. I would like to to dig into
42:06like, why do you think they do it that
42:09way? Is it because of like, you know,
42:10business business goals, what they are
42:13then all that to share or do they do you
42:15think there's another reason they might
42:17not be sharing it?
42:18I think it's
42:20they're always looking at the future,
42:21right? That's just Google. So, I think
42:23they want to talk about how this will
42:26work once we get it right and we get all
42:28the data.
42:29And so, you know, it takes Google when
42:32they launch a new product, usually the
42:34first 3 to 5 years it's awful. Right?
42:37And then after 3 to 5 years I get enough
42:39data that hey, this works. I mean, it
42:40took CPA bidding about five, took rows
42:43bidding maybe seven or eight years.
42:45Um but it took some of the others much
42:46less cuz there was more more data,
42:48right? PMAX still isn't fixed yet. Um
42:51and so Google doesn't like to talk about
42:54what that data collection and as we
42:56often call it advertiser tax, right?
42:59Looks like as we're paying for them to
43:01learn. They always talk about this is
43:03what the end result will look like, but
43:05they never say it is the end result,
43:07right? They're just like, this is how
43:08this works if you have crazy insane
43:10amounts of data which
43:12almost none of you have. Um I think it's
43:14a marketing thing, it's a PR thing and
43:16it's also you can't say we're bad today
43:19but we'll be good once you give us
43:20enough money. Yeah. Right? You have to
43:22say this is how it works. Yeah. Yeah,
43:24absolutely. Absolutely. No, that makes
43:26sense. And lastly, one thing that PPCers
43:29never admit.
43:33Gosh, um that they don't test.
43:36Okay. Ah, okay. So, you don't you think
43:40PPCers as often as we should?
43:43No, I think a lot of people test a lot
43:45but I think everyone says like whenever
43:48it's sort of like it depends statement.
43:49Hey, you should do this but test it. But
43:50see how this works. Oh, but we always
43:52test this first. And
43:54many things are not tested that people
43:57say they do or they just do cuz they
43:58have lack of time or whatnot. Um
44:01and so everyone says they test
44:02everything constantly but we know that
44:04this can't be true.
44:05So, I think that's, you know, it's it is
44:08important to test. Obviously everyone
44:10will tell you that but I don't think
44:12it's done as much as people claim it's
44:14being done.
44:16Do
44:17you think that people are there people
44:19that do it as much as they should
44:21because you know it's all about the
44:23timing. Is it being
44:26are we under testing? Are we really
44:27behind in terms of how much testing that
44:29we should be doing do you feel?
44:33Large accounts usually not. Small
44:35mid-size accounts yes because and it's
44:38more
44:39they'll read a tactical article like
44:41okay this is how so and so is doing it
44:43let me just do this as opposed to say
44:46is this going to work for me? Yeah. And
44:48they don't want to necessarily have
44:49feedback loops to say
44:52okay I changed a bid method you know a
44:55month ago was it a good or bad change
44:57right? It's like no that's my bid method
44:59now and they don't really look to see
45:01what that impact was and you know Google
45:05with their RSA story says give us assets
45:07we'll test this for you
45:09but you know we definitely can see that
45:11people who actually test RSA is doing
45:13incredibly better than those who just
45:15give Google assets and don't do
45:16anything. So part of it's Google saying
45:19trust us we'll get this right part of
45:21it's marketers. Yeah and we could have a
45:23whole another hour conversation as to
45:25how much we should trust Google and we
45:28should say things that they say we
45:30should do or no but you know we'll we'll
45:33come to a close here. Thank you so much
45:35Brad for this fantastic and giving us a
45:37great insight as to yeah the search
45:39engine industry over the past 20 years
45:41and we look forward to what you bring to
45:43us with with the Dallas and your
45:45fantastic team for the next 20 and
45:47alongside the search engine land work.
45:49So thanks. Excellent thank you thank you
45:51thank you for sharing everyone's
45:52stories. I mean this is going to be
45:53great to see this whole compilation of
45:56this is
45:57a review of the industry in search
45:59engine land for two decades. It'll be
46:01it'll be fascinating to watch. It will.
46:03It really will. All right. Brilliant.
46:04Thank you.
46:11>> [music]

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