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2-Hour Youtube Masterclass From The World's Highest-Paid Strategist — Transcript

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0:00Within a day of changing the thumbnail,
0:02that video went from [music] getting
0:02a,000 views a day to 40,000 views a day.
0:05>> That's Patty Galloway. He's responsible
0:07for over 50 billion YouTube views. Red
0:10Bull, Mr. Beast, the Philadelphia
0:11[music] Eagles, and he even made his own
0:13dog go viral.
0:14>> Videos that have 10, 50, 100 million
0:15views always [music] posed a question
0:17that you have to click to answer. The
0:19click part of the equation is 50% of
0:20[music] the game.
0:21>> He shows the exact systems behind the
0:23videos you can't stop watching and why
0:25attention is the only thing that
0:27matters. If you can consistently [music]
0:28go viral, like that is the most
0:30important skill. It's so crucial you get
0:32this next priority which is
0:4150 billion views. The highest paid
0:43YouTube strategist in the world. Worked
0:46with Red Bull, Mr. Beast, the
0:48Philadelphia Eagles. He claims he can
0:49make any channel, any account go viral.
0:51We're going to give you the full
0:52playbook today.
0:55So you walked into Red Bull's YouTube
0:56channel. They're averaging 400,000 views
0:58a video today over 9 million. What did
1:02you find when you walked in?
1:04>> YouTube strategy. It just wasn't being
1:06applied. So, I think this is something
1:08you see all the time with YouTube
1:09channels with big brands. They treat
1:12YouTube like it's just a place to host
1:14videos, right? I call them Vimeo
1:17creators because they're just like using
1:18it as like a video hosting platform. And
1:21I think consistently when I look at the
1:23channels that we've managed to grow to
1:24be the biggest channels in the world or
1:26you know in that case like 10x 20x
1:28viewership it's just putting emphasis
1:31and putting time towards the things that
1:32actually matter. So you know a lot of
1:35people think YouTube is just you know
1:37make a video shoot a video put it up you
1:39know if it goes viral it goes viral. And
1:41I think I believed this 10 years ago and
1:44I've become more and more convinced of
1:45it that virality can be engineered. It's
1:48actually a lot more predictable than
1:50people think. So when we come into a
1:52channel like Rebel or any of the
1:53channels we've worked with, it's about
1:55like how can we look at the data? How
1:56can we look at what they're doing and
1:58actually predict virality for their
2:00channel?
2:00>> Yeah. It's not so much a strategy as
2:02much as it is a framework. And guys,
2:04this guy made his dog go viral. And even
2:06the Philadelphia Eagles, like you look
2:07at Red Bull, you look at a dog, you look
2:08at the Eagles, and I mean you're
2:09literally three, four, 5x more views on
2:12the Philadelphia Eagles versus any other
2:13NFL team. So, it really does kind of
2:15apply anywhere. When you kind of look at
2:17it from like a a macro perspective, what
2:19are kind of those big buckets on how you
2:21just look at YouTube in general? And
2:23then we'll kind of like double click on
2:24each.
2:25>> Yeah. So, to me, I always like to say
2:28YouTube is a click and watch platform,
2:30right? And I think that's very different
2:33to how again people really perceive it.
2:35They just think of it as like, oh, you
2:36just watch videos. But when you think
2:37about it, you're scrolling a platform,
2:39you're clicking. That's very different
2:41to other platforms like Instagram,
2:42Rails, Tik Tok. You're being served
2:44things. You're watching things that are
2:45being served to you. YouTube, you still
2:47have that decision to make. At least
2:48with long form, you have that choice to
2:49make. So, I always think YouTube really
2:51boils down to a few things. It boils
2:53down to, can we come up with better
2:55ideas than anyone else? Can we come up
2:56with ideas that are going to travel and
2:58go viral? Can we make those ideas really
3:00clickable? So, can a lot of people click
3:02those videos? And I do like to say that
3:04the the click part of the equation is
3:06kind of 50% of the game. And I always
3:07shock people when I say, you know,
3:09there's clients we work with where we'll
3:10make 50 thumbnails for a video. And you
3:13know, the person's just sort of standing
3:14there going, "Oh, I I make one." I'm
3:15like, "Yeah, we make 50." And we have
3:18five designers working on different
3:19concepts for just one video. And you
3:22know, I think the click is a really
3:23important part of the equation. Once you
3:25have the click, well, what's important?
3:27Well, they need to watch for as long as
3:29possible. The YouTube algorithm values
3:30kind of three things. People clicking,
3:32people watching, and people being
3:33satisfied. So, you need to make a
3:35satisfying video that keeps people
3:36watching for as long as possible and
3:38then it just becomes a game of doing it
3:39again. Long-term strategy like how can
3:41you actually build momentum into like a
3:43repeatable channel where you can keep
3:45making videos that go viral. So, I think
3:47if you take a step back, the reality is
3:48is, you know, we're going to go through
3:50the frameworks and principles to first
3:52and foremost just make people click
3:54because if they don't click, you could
3:55create the greatest video of all time,
3:57but you know, title, thumbnail, stuff
3:58like that, then you're out of the game.
4:00And then secondly, from a macro
4:01perspective, I would just say retention.
4:03just how do you keep them as long as
4:04possible to feed the algorithm and
4:06obviously just get more net new people
4:08to watching the video? You've said
4:10before that like virality is like the
4:12most important skill to have nowadays.
4:14That's like a fairly big claim. Um why
4:17would you say that?
4:19>> I think every other moat is dying in in
4:21business in creative. It's even
4:23interesting just driving through here,
4:25driving through Hollywood Hills, right?
4:26And like you're seeing all these offices
4:28empty, right? all these traditional
4:30media, you know, companies and Hollywood
4:33and film production studios, they're
4:34just lying empty. I think if you can own
4:38distribution, you can build products in
4:41any niche. And I always like to sort of
4:43view it through the lens of like it's a
4:45cliche, but I think attention right now
4:49is what gas was or oil was to America in
4:52like 1885. It's like if you have the
4:55attention, you have the power. In the
4:57last three months, I won't name the
5:00names, but in the last three months,
5:02I've had like huge politicians,
5:05billionaires, hall of fame athletes
5:07reach out to me and ask me about YouTube
5:09and about making videos. And it's like
5:11that wasn't happening 5 years ago. That
5:13wasn't happening 10 years ago. And I was
5:15even I was at dinner recently with my
5:16friend. I just he was like, "What's like
5:18a really bold claim you would stand by?"
5:20And I was like, I think the next
5:22president of the United States is going
5:23to be who is the best at viral content
5:25in 2028.
5:27>> I said on episode, I don't even know
5:28what it was, like 3, four with Nick
5:29Shakford that I mean, I think Mr. Beast
5:32is going to be the president if he wants
5:33to be in 2036, just under the notion
5:35that if a fraction of his followers vote
5:38for him, like he would win over the
5:40whole entire United States. So, I
5:42completely agree with that. And like you
5:44also see,
5:46you know, people are buying these big
5:48media companies under the notion that
5:49they own distribution and attention and
5:51they just want to sway people to make
5:53decisions towards them. Like you saw
5:54that with TVPN. I mean, it was purchased
5:56for nine figures plus. Yeah. And you
5:58know, TVPN is a podcast that's doing
6:00what,
6:02a,000 2,000 views an episode on YouTube.
6:04Do you think open open AI paid $100
6:06million for the podcast or do you think
6:09they paid for the the brain of
6:11understanding content and understanding
6:13virality and you know John and Jordy
6:15clearly have that brain? I think that's
6:17what they bought.
6:17>> Yeah. Clearly was like an aqua hire for
6:20that and I think that also speaks to the
6:22notion that they have it's not even a
6:24big audience but it's a very small
6:26valuable audience which we'll get into
6:27right now that views aren't everything.
6:29It's a lot in the beginning, but owning
6:31a small concentrated audience that has
6:34purchasing power, the ability to
6:35influence is everything.
6:37>> Yeah. And I I think on that point as
6:39well, something really interesting I
6:41bring up is maybe 10 years ago. I've
6:43been doing this for 20 years. So I
6:45uploaded my first video in 2006. So 20
6:47years this year, I think it was July of
6:49of 2006. So it's going to be 20 years
6:50next month.
6:51>> Insane.
6:52>> And every single year since then, I've
6:53posted videos on YouTube. You know, I
6:56have multiple channels. I've had like 40
6:5750 channels. People know me from the
6:59channel, which is my own name. But
7:01what's interesting is like I think maybe
7:03eight, nine years ago, I was on this
7:05radio show in Ireland, which is my home
7:06country. And it's this radio show.
7:09They're also like a big like publisher
7:10in Ireland. And they're like, "How does
7:12this make sense? Like, how do you make
7:13money from this? How could anyone make
7:15money from this?" And this is like, you
7:16know, 10 years ago. And I'm like, "Oh,
7:19like I'm doing 500,000 views every
7:21episode." And they're like, "Yeah, how
7:23does how do you make money from that?"
7:24I'm like, "How many people tune in to
7:26your biggest like show on TV?" And
7:28they're like, "250, like 250, 100,000
7:31people or 350,000 people per episode?"
7:34I'm like, "How many employees do you
7:36have for that episode?" They go, "11
7:38150." I'm like, "It's me in my bedroom
7:41and I'm getting similar viewership and
7:42you think there's no way this can be
7:44valuable." And back then it wasn't as
7:46obvious. And now, you know, flash
7:47forward to today, you know, I have one
7:51of the highest grossing directors of all
7:52time has reached out to me. one of uh
7:54you know these Hollywood studios,
7:55Netflix, all these different places are
7:57just seeing the value of organic content
8:00now.
8:00>> Yeah. I also think too like you touched
8:02on it. It's as a business you can have
8:05very very low opex and scale this like
8:07it might have been just you in your
8:09bedroom filming it. Obviously you can
8:10have higher production and go deeper
8:12into that and it would be a little bit
8:13more expensive but people are starting
8:14to see just inputs outputs. You could
8:16have a very very small team and get tens
8:19of millions of views and then just build
8:20a business or a service on top of that.
8:22Yeah, I've seen some of the most
8:24disgusting profit margins ever with
8:26creator companies and some of the worst
8:28to be fair. Like it is it can be a
8:29little bit of a barbell where like some
8:31people are reinvesting every single
8:33penny and you know going all out trying
8:35to go viral trying to be the next Mr.
8:36Beast. But then there's other people on
8:38the end of the spectrum who you've never
8:39heard of that operate in a little niche
8:41and they have like two employees and
8:43they're doing 15 million a year from
8:45content. Like I know two people that do
8:46that.
8:47>> Yeah. I mean, I come from the e-com
8:49space where like ebida is as low as like
8:505 10 15%. I feel like on media it could
8:53be as high as like 90 95%. I would say
8:56as low as like 50% if you want to push
8:58the initiative on kind of other things.
8:59But like you could definitely run a 50%
9:01ebot business in media. It's [ __ ]
9:03insane.
9:03>> 100%.
9:04>> I want to double click now and just
9:06start just overall into how you kind of
9:09come up with ideas because that's kind
9:10of obviously the first kind of touch
9:12point. We're going to pop up kind of
9:13here, guys, about this kind of what what
9:16you call it is this ceiling problem.
9:18Most people think they have a content
9:19problem, but you think it's more of an
9:21idea kind of problem. So, I'd love for
9:22you to walk through like how they should
9:24be looking at that.
9:25>> Yeah, I always like this visual because
9:27I think there are these three circles.
9:29There are all the viewers you could
9:30reach, there's the ceiling that your
9:32idea imposes on the amount of viewers
9:34you can reach, and then there's your
9:36execution. And you actually need to look
9:38at all three of those things at once
9:39because, you know, first looking at the
9:41actual all viewers you could reach.
9:43Well, that's defined by the niche you're
9:45in, by the market you're operating in.
9:46You know, like lo and behold, like a
9:48knitting niche has a smaller TAM than
9:50like a Mr. Beast type channel, right?
9:52So, the actual market you're in has a
9:55huge impact on that. I always like to
9:56say that like the bigger TAMs are a lot
9:58more competitive, but there's obviously
10:00more potential upside. smaller towns
10:03where you have like, you know, smaller
10:04niches, you can sort of build more
10:06momentum, but then you do reach that
10:08ceiling. But regardless of the niche,
10:10your actual idea itself can just set a
10:12ceiling. And people often just pick
10:14ideas that when I look at them, I'm just
10:16like, why did you think most people in
10:18your niche would watch this? And they're
10:19like, I didn't. I just thought it was
10:20interesting. And I'm like, I understand
10:22that, but if you're trying to build a
10:23great YouTube channel, like you need to
10:25look at videos that you think can reach
10:27as far into your niche as possible and
10:29and take up as much of that circle as
10:30possible. So, you know, going back even
10:32to your earlier question about what do
10:34you do when you go into channels, I
10:35think so much of it is saying like how
10:37do we make the market we're operating in
10:38bigger and then how do we come up with
10:40ideas that reach further into that
10:42market and then how do we make sure our
10:44execution is good enough so our idea
10:45travels as far as it should. I'd love
10:47for you to give any type of kind of
10:49simple idea where maybe it was like a
10:52catastrophically low kind of idea but
10:54someone was very talented and then you
10:55opened it up into kind of a new format
10:57or a bigger idea. anything you can kind
10:58of point to there to kind of have people
11:00visualize big ideas versus small ideas?
11:03>> So, there was this channel that we
11:05worked with through our training program
11:08a couple years ago. Astrophotography
11:11and astrophotography is kind of niche,
11:13right? Taking photos of like the Milky
11:14Way, right? It's pretty niche. He was
11:16doing like a thousand 2,000 views a
11:18video and you know it was like shoot his
11:20videos would be like reviewing the new
11:22telescope that he bought for
11:23astrophotography or like teaching people
11:25how to shoot you know the Milky Way or
11:28whatever and it's all like
11:29>> super small and technical to a small
11:30town.
11:31>> Yeah. Like no one really cares. And
11:34during our training he he uploaded a
11:35video which was like shooting a Milky
11:37Way at like different with different
11:39cameras. So like with an iPhone versus
11:41an expensive camera or at different time
11:43horizons like in 10 minutes versus an
11:45hour versus 100 hours. You know there
11:47was this video on YouTube that went
11:48viral which was like 10 second haircut
11:50versus 10-minute haircut versus 10hour
11:52haircut something like that. And you
11:54know you can take a niche an idea like
11:56that and say well what would that look
11:57like in astrophotography and it turns
11:59out it looked like something really
12:00interesting. And that video got I think
12:02two or three million views. So it is
12:04amazing how many small niche channels
12:05that we have worked with that you would
12:08think the TAM is like a few thousand
12:10viewers but when you actually make it
12:11broadly appealing you can go a lot
12:13further. One of the most viral videos on
12:15YouTube over the last few years was I
12:17built a wildlife pond in my backyard. It
12:20has like 25 million views, 30 million
12:21views or something. And you know the
12:24niche technically is wildlife ponds but
12:26like imagine you were like a full guide
12:28on how to build a wildlife pond or how
12:30to like install your pond lining for
12:31your wildlife pond. It's like 10,000
12:34views maybe, Tam. But when you go with
12:36that bigger, broader angle, you can you
12:39can unlock so much more views.
12:40>> Guys, we're going to go through all
12:41different ways to kind of ideate ideas
12:43and formats and all different ways to
12:44kind of remix different things. So, if
12:48the ideas are the ceiling, what would
12:50you say is kind of the floor? Like what
12:52is how do you look kind of through that
12:54lens?
12:55>> I think floor is it's an interesting
12:57word. I think like
13:01I kind of think that the floor is
13:04basically like your audience. If the way
13:08I like to think about floor is if you
13:10posted a trash video, how many of your
13:13viewers would watch? So when I work with
13:15channels, I'm trying to figure out
13:16ceiling and floor. It's like let's think
13:18about the worst video we could possibly
13:19post. Like if we literally, this is a
13:20bit dramatic, but if we literally just
13:21posted like a video that was titled
13:22video one and a picture of our face, how
13:25many viewers would that get? To me,
13:26that's the floor. That's like the the
13:28most dedicated viewers that would watch
13:30you no matter what is kind of the floor
13:32and then everything above that is like
13:33our execution determines how far we can
13:35go.
13:35>> So you would say idea is kind of the
13:37ceiling and then the floor would be kind
13:39of the lowest execution versus your a
13:42thousand Drew fans like the stickiest
13:44fans that no matter what you put up
13:45would would would watch it.
13:47>> Exactly. Makes a lot of sense. Um
13:51TAM is a word that we talk about a lot.
13:52We have a lot of you know ecom operators
13:54on here now. I feel like a lot of people
13:58look at a niche and they're just like,
14:00"Hey, this is a niche. It's a small
14:01town. It can't hit a lot of people." Are
14:03you basically saying that no matter
14:05what, if you just think of a big idea,
14:06you can kind of outgrow a small niche?
14:08Are you basically saying any niche you
14:09can blow up?
14:10>> You know, I just have so much
14:12confirmation bias that has like informed
14:14me of that belief where like there's
14:16been so many niches where they're like,
14:17"There's no way I can make a knitting
14:19channel go viral. There's no way I can
14:20make an astrophotography channel go
14:22viral. there's no way I can make a
14:23horiculture niche go viral. And we have
14:27just seen those examples like time and
14:29time again where like when you do go
14:30broader, when you do look for those
14:32bigger ideas, you can reach more people.
14:35So I yeah, I do think there's there's a
14:37limit to how many views you can get in
14:39those niches, but like you know an
14:40example of I have a friend who does like
14:42reviews on like website builders and
14:45just like covers different like like Wix
14:47versus Squarespace, all these things.
14:49And it's like, well, that's that's a
14:50pretty small niche in itself, but if you
14:52have 100,000 viewers watching those
14:54pieces of content, those are really high
14:56value viewers, you know? So, I think
14:58there is a limit to how far niches can
14:59go. But in theory, you know, I I just
15:02haven't seen an example yet where I look
15:03at a niche and I'm like, so long as
15:04there's some level of interest there.
15:06Like, sure, if you're like, my niche is
15:09Irish guys who live in Austin, Texas,
15:11and like pickle ball only, it's like,
15:13oh, okay, well, you just have Patty,
15:15that's that's your only viewer. But I
15:18think generally speaking, so long as
15:19there's some level of interest in the
15:21thing you're doing, you know, whether it
15:22be golf, like I remember when people
15:23said like golf doesn't work on YouTube.
15:25Golf's huge on YouTube now. It's like
15:26one of the biggest like niches on
15:28YouTube right now.
15:29>> The reality is is I think anybody out
15:31there, you know, the bigger the TAM, the
15:33better I feel like. But it's also like
15:35how do they find that sweet spot with a
15:37big TAM, but it's kind of underexposed
15:39and not a lot of people are building
15:40there. So how do you look at TAM in
15:42general? like how do people go out there
15:44and find kind of these markets where
15:46hopefully they're medium to big size and
15:48like little competition like how do you
15:50find out what the volume is and the
15:52competition is from a TAM perspective?
15:54>> Well, I think that the first thing is at
15:55least for me is
15:58we have to understand like the
16:00intersection between our skill, what
16:02we're good at and what there's demand
16:04for before even getting to the TAM
16:05question because like I do sometimes see
16:07people just chasing these niches where
16:08they're like, "Oh, this goes really
16:09viral. Minecraft goes really viral.
16:11Roblox goes really viral or this is the
16:13latest viral thing in business or or
16:14whatever it might be. I always like to
16:16think of it as like these two circles,
16:19you know, intersecting and it's like you
16:21have your passions, your skills, your
16:24maybe your competitive advantages as a
16:26person, what you're you're best at and
16:28then you have what is in demand on
16:30YouTube right now or what you know do
16:31you think there is going to be demand
16:33for? That intersection is usually where
16:34I like to to live. Like where is that
16:36intersection? To me though, it's like
16:38one of the best ways to find evidence of
16:40if there is something working is just
16:42are there small channels in a niche that
16:46are overperforming. So so much of my
16:48career has just been built on studying
16:50how do small channels grow? Like
16:52everyone's like, "Oh, how does how does
16:53Mr. Beast grow?" You can learn a lot
16:54from Mr. Beast. I learn a lot from this
16:56tiny channel with a 100 subscribers that
16:58just posted a video that got 3,000
16:59views. It's like that to me is like it's
17:02the equivalent of if you're like a a VC
17:04fund seeing a company that is tiny and
17:06you know but it's grown from like 10k a
17:09month in revenue to 30k a month in
17:10revenue in a month and it's like oh okay
17:12that's kind of interesting. So I look at
17:14I look for really small channels that
17:16are starting to see some traction and I
17:18start to sort of reverse engineer like
17:20is there something about their niche? Is
17:21there something about their execution?
17:22Like why is that working?
17:24>> Yeah. I think for people out there too
17:25we have a lot of creators but also
17:27operators. What you're basically saying,
17:28ironically, it's the name of your
17:29company is outliers where if the base
17:31average is 100 views and it gets 3,000,
17:34it's basically a 30x outlier. So, you
17:36want to look for those ones that kind of
17:37get disproportionately more views. What
17:40are like the tools that you're using?
17:41We're we're big one of 10 guys. What do
17:42you use to kind of see those outliers?
17:44>> I think one of 10 view stats, Vid IQ,
17:46like the tool doesn't matter that much.
17:48It's just like so long as it shows you
17:51videos on YouTube and it shows you the
17:53average score. So, like average views of
17:55the channel and then the outlier score.
17:57So the outlier score being 30x average
17:58views or 50x average views
18:00>> makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Like for us
18:02out there guys to give you guys more
18:03context like from a guest perspective,
18:05we'd like to, you know, we would look at
18:07you on other channels and are you an
18:09outlier? Are you not? Patty is an
18:12outlier. He's got that he's got that
18:13sauce. So definitely I think if anybody
18:15is going to go invest in any idea, any
18:18person, any guest, they should see how
18:20those ideas, concepts, or people have
18:22performed on other channels.
18:24>> But you want to know something funny?
18:25>> What? That's how I found you, too.
18:27>> You serious?
18:27>> I saw you flash up on one of my tools
18:29and I was like, "Oh [ __ ] this guy's
18:31started a podcast.
18:33>> I think one of your first guests got
18:34like maybe 50 60,000 views, right? Then
18:36you had Samir on. It did well." And I
18:38was like, "You're overperforming." Like,
18:39you're overperforming your expectation.
18:41If I looked How many subscribers you on
18:42right now?
18:43>> Probably by the time this comes out, I'd
18:44say 60,000 subscribers.
18:45>> 60,000 subscribers. So, if I looked at a
18:4660,000 subscriber channel, I would sort
18:48of assume the viewership would be like 5
18:51to 10,000 views.
18:52>> We smashing over that. And you're
18:54probably averaging
18:55>> combined video and audio 100,000.
18:57>> 100,000. So it's like you're an outlier.
19:00So speaking back to that like idea like
19:02you know you saw me you saw that on
19:03other podcasts I've been on it's
19:05overperformed their channels average. I
19:07saw that you were overperforming you
19:09know other podcasts as well.
19:11>> Interesting. Really quick just to do the
19:12math because I know that you're like
19:13very formulaic in nature. How do you
19:15look at subscribers versus average views
19:17and kind of like the benchmark? I mean
19:18it seems as though you just benchmarked
19:2060,000 subs to 10,000 views. So, are you
19:22saying what, like 5 10% of subs should
19:25be viewing? Like what are those what's
19:27that ratio that you're looking at?
19:28>> So, what's interesting is like
19:30subscribers in 2026 to be honest, I
19:34don't really care about kind of dead.
19:37They're a little bit of a vanity metric.
19:39And look, it's still like the score.
19:41It's still what people used to keep
19:43score. Like, you know, Mr. Beast doesn't
19:44go, "Oh, I just hit 150 million views on
19:46average video. Next milestone." It's
19:47like, I just hit 500K subscribers or 500
19:50million subscribers. So, it's still this
19:52the thing that keeps score, but it's not
19:53it's not overly important from an
19:55algorithmic perspective. I just use it
19:56as like a rough like idea. If a
19:58channel's like 50 60,000 subscribers,
20:00where would I in my mind generally think
20:02the viewership would be? Probably like
20:05you you typically see maybe 20% of their
20:07subscriber count would be quite normal.
20:09But if you're overperforming, it's very
20:10common to see a channel that's like, you
20:12know, way above that. When I had my when
20:14I did my channel, I had 200 300,000
20:16subscribers and I was hitting a million
20:182 million views every episode on my
20:20channel and it was like overperformed
20:21that subscriber count.
20:23>> More views and subs. That's a winner.
20:24Completely agree there. Guys, this
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21:03I want to keep diving into principles
21:05and framers. We've talked a lot about
21:07you can win in a niche. What are ways to
21:09kind of look at TAMs and kind of find
21:12outliers? We're gonna get way more into
21:13the outliers. I love this CCN framework
21:15that you talk about. We're going to pop
21:16up right here at Visual on that, too.
21:18Why don't you kind of walk us through
21:19the three types of viewers and how
21:21people should approach kind of
21:22positioning and packaging their videos?
21:24>> Yeah, I came up with this framework
21:26probably four years, four or five years
21:28ago, and it's one of those moments where
21:30it's so simple, but then I was like, oh,
21:33this actually sums up content as a whole
21:35and content strategy as a whole. So the
21:38idea here is most channels and I think
21:40this goes for different platforms as
21:42well whether it's Instagram, Tik Tok,
21:43you know, whatever. You have these three
21:46three main groups of viewers. Your core
21:48viewers are the people that basically
21:49are ride or die, like the 10,000 true
21:52fans. These are the people who like will
21:54kind of tune in no matter what for you.
21:56If you're starting out, you probably
21:57don't have much of a core. If you're at
21:58zero, like obviously you don't have a
22:00core. But even for you right now on the
22:01podcast, you probably know that there's
22:03like out of the 100,000 viewers you're
22:06getting across the episodes, it's
22:07probably like three, four, 5,000 people
22:09that are like, I'll watch every episode.
22:10This is great. I'm there. And that's
22:12your core. And they're very valuable.
22:13But that's the core. The casual are the
22:16people who dip in and dip out. They
22:17maybe watch one in every three, one in
22:20every four videos or episodes. And
22:22they're very valuable because if you can
22:24capture more of them, you can start to
22:25turn them into core viewers. But that's
22:27your casual audience. And then you have
22:29new viewers. New viewers are all the
22:30potential viewers you could reach every
22:32time you upload. Now, this can be
22:34overwhelming because if you think about
22:35it, like, you know, there are over a
22:37billion viewers on YouTube. So, that can
22:40be like overwhelming. Well, could I
22:41reach a billion views? No. But in your
22:43niche, you know, with the idea of what
22:44your TAM might be, like how many viewers
22:47do you think there is? So, for like a
22:49business operator podcast, there's
22:51probably like 500K to a million viewers
22:53out there. So, you're like, "Well,
22:54there's all these new viewers I'm still
22:55not reaching with my videos." And the
22:57idea of the core, casual, new viewer
22:59framework, the CCN framework, is you
23:02want videos that your core viewer can
23:05watch and enjoy, your casual viewer can
23:07watch and enjoy, and a new viewer can
23:09watch and enjoy.
23:10>> So, hit all three.
23:10>> Hit all three. And it sounds so basic,
23:13but it actually starts to make it really
23:14difficult cuz if you think about it, the
23:16kind of idea that your core wants, the
23:18kind of videos your core wants the most,
23:20might be very different to the videos
23:21that attract new viewers. and vice
23:23versa, the videos that maybe attract the
23:25most new viewers, that might completely
23:27alienate the core. So, so many mistakes
23:29in YouTube strategy come from tailoring
23:31too much to the core and just making
23:33these videos that are just like super
23:34niche. Like if you I always like to say
23:36like, you know, I think it was was it
23:38Henry Ford that said if I asked people
23:39what they wanted, they they would have
23:40said a faster horse, you know, instead
23:42of a car. I think about YouTube, it's
23:44like if you ask your comment section
23:46what they want, they'll just say more of
23:47the old thing you used to do that no
23:49longer works because they're like, I
23:50missed that. Do that again. And it's
23:51like you're not a good strategist. You
23:54just want what you know you want to
23:55watch as a as a viewer. So I don't
23:57really listen to my comment section that
23:58much. I'll pay attention but like you
24:00know looking at the core can really sort
24:02of you know make you focus too much on
24:04small narrow topics. Even think about
24:06the creators you like the most. Like you
24:08know let's just say someone like a
24:09Hermosi who's like a huge business
24:11creator. Like I think if me or you as as
24:13people who own companies wanted herozi
24:15to make a video we tell him the video we
24:16want him to make he'd be like okay I
24:18could make that. it's going to get
24:2010,000 viewers because there's very few
24:21people at your level that want to watch
24:23that video, right? So, I think the core
24:25is is a really hard one to hit, but it's
24:27super important. And then on the flip
24:29side, you know, your new new viewers,
24:31like I see these channels all the time
24:32that just like they're you can tell
24:34they're just chasing these new viewers.
24:36They're like, "Oh, come over here. Come
24:37over here." And they're trying to grab
24:38them. They're like, "Come over here.
24:39Grab I'm gonna grab you here with this
24:40idea. I'm going to grab you with this
24:41idea." And there's no like throughine.
24:43There's no reason to keep watching the
24:45channel. It's just like you're just
24:46making whatever goes viral in a given
24:48moment. you're just trying to attract
24:49new viewers. So to me, the best videos
24:51on YouTube, they can be watched by
24:53people who have watched every video on
24:54your channel, that have watched a couple
24:55videos on your channel, and have never
24:56watched your channel before. And I like
24:58to use that framework to to help with
25:00that.
25:00>> Yeah. I think for people out there
25:02listening is obviously you need some
25:03sort of kind of through line that kind
25:05of filters in all three of those
25:07buckets. For us, it's business. And to
25:09hit the new, like you really have to
25:12basically take a swing and kind of try
25:14something completely new. Like for us,
25:16you know, Dave Gutman, who's a big
25:18hospitality guy in Miami, like he was a
25:21kind of different type of episode. We
25:22had had on basically only operators and
25:24creators, and we brought on this kind of
25:26hospitality guy, but it was through the
25:28lens of business. So, you had the core
25:31people, they wanted to hear about
25:32business. The casual people, maybe
25:33they've been to Miami, and then the new
25:34people, maybe it's hospitality people.
25:36So, I think you need to you have to be
25:39big and bold. You have to try new things
25:40to hit the new audience, or else you're
25:42going to stay kind of stagnant and not
25:43grow and stick with the core. Exactly.
25:45And I love this example that we have
25:47here from one of our previous clients,
25:50Jesser, who is I think the biggest one
25:52of the biggest sports channels in the
25:53world. Right now,
25:54>> guys, if you're on audio, make sure you
25:55get on video right now because we're
25:56popping up right now a great example
25:59that you can walk through. Yeah. Why
26:00don't you walk us through right now how
26:02and why it hits these different three.
26:04>> So, this this is a great example. I I
26:05love using this because these three
26:06videos were all posted within the same
26:08month on the same channel, right? So,
26:11this was these were all posted on a big
26:13channel. They were all like, you know,
26:14thought out, planned. They had their own
26:16thumbnail, all these different things,
26:17right? You see on the far left, core,
26:19official reveal of my new YouTube
26:21studio, full tour. So, if you don't know
26:23who that is, why do you give a [ __ ]
26:25about that video? Like, official reveal
26:28of your new, you know, who likes that
26:29video? Like, YouTube nerds, like
26:31production nerds, like we're like, "Oh,
26:32that's cool. Let's watch that." But
26:35really, the only people that would watch
26:36that is his core audience, 400,000
26:38people. So, it's actually a pretty easy
26:40way to see what what is your core
26:41audience. there's probably 400,000
26:42people cuz you made a video that's not
26:43very interesting and only 400,000 people
26:44watch.
26:45>> That's almost like a day in the life
26:46type thing like where it's very kind of
26:48intimate and specific to the one person.
26:50>> And there is still sometimes a value to
26:51trying those videos. But if you're
26:53trying to grow a channel, if you're
26:54trying to build the biggest possible
26:55audience, they do hold you back.
26:57>> You look at the right core casual,
26:59right? Insane make the shot I'll buy you
27:01anything challenge. Why do I think
27:02that's core casual? Well, it's core
27:03because again the core just like the
27:05creator, they like Jer. It's casual
27:07because most of his casual viewers have
27:09watched previous videos like this on his
27:11channel. Like it's it's a decent idea.
27:12There's some level of stakes, but it's
27:14kind of basic. There's nothing that
27:15special or unique about that idea. And
27:18if you look at the the one on the far
27:19right here, core casual new.
27:20>> I'm interested.
27:21>> Going to five NBA games in 50 hours.
27:24It's difficult. It's a challenge. It
27:26feels he's kind of like signaling effort
27:28to you. Like we all have this effort
27:30bias as humans that if we see someone
27:32doing something that feels high effort,
27:33we look at it and go, "Oh, wow." Like
27:35that's impressive. like how did he do
27:36that or I want to see that. So going to
27:38five NBA games in 50 hours 14 million
27:40views and I think it's a great beautiful
27:43example of these things. His core
27:44audience is 400,000 viewers. So that
27:46video got 4,000 views. His casual is
27:48maybe closer to a million at least at
27:49the time. So you know that one got just
27:51under a million views. And then the new
27:53viewer well the TAM for basketball on
27:55YouTube might be like 10 to 20 million
27:56views and he got 14 million views on
27:58that video. Again, three videos, one
28:01video has just dramatically bigger
28:02outcome because it is reaching to new
28:04viewers as well. I use Whisper Flow for
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29:13residency.
29:16>> Where do you see people going wrong with
29:17this kind of CCN network? Like what are
29:18those big mistakes that people are
29:20making? I would say one big mistake is
29:24not understanding the importance of a
29:26throughine and actually just in general
29:28especially when I talk to actually
29:29entrepreneurs this is really interesting
29:31like I think entrepreneurs generally
29:33have like a ton of interests and they
29:34try to do a ton of different things and
29:36what they'll do that's wrong in my
29:38opinion when it comes to this framework
29:39and just ideation in general is they'll
29:41they assume that there's too much
29:43overlap or there's more overlap than
29:45actually exists between different
29:46topics.
29:47>> Yeah.
29:47>> Right. So, I always like to think of
29:49this thing where like actually speaking
29:51of Red Bull, our client Red Bull, when I
29:53started working at Red Bull in 2022 on
29:55their channel, they had like, you know,
29:57parkour, the snowboarding athlete, you
30:00know, this rock climbing, then F1 and
30:02then soccer, and then all these
30:04different things. And it's like, great,
30:06okay, but who are the people who
30:09actually like all these different sports
30:11at the same time and care about all
30:12these different sports at the same time
30:14and all these different athletes? cuz I
30:15was just like, you know, I I think at
30:17the time, like she's much bigger now,
30:18but Eileen Goo, who's like the skater or
30:21something, um I remember going, "Who's
30:23Een Goo?" And they're like, "You don't
30:24know who Eing Goo is?" And I'm like,
30:26"No." And it's like, I think very few
30:28people in the world know who all these
30:30people are and care about all these
30:31people. And the people that do, they
30:33work for Rebel, right? They're like,
30:35"You." So, I love I love to think of
30:37that idea of like there isn't that much
30:40overlap between topics. Like even video
30:42games, right? If I said like Battlefield
30:44and Call of Duty, they're both first
30:46person shooters. They're both very
30:48popular, like huge AAA games, right? The
30:52overlap between those two games, 20% in
30:55my opinion, if I had to guess right now,
30:57like 20% of people that play Call of
30:58Duty regularly also play Battlefield
31:00regularly. So, you'll see these channels
31:01and they're like, "Oh, I'm a gaming
31:02channel. I do first-person shooter
31:04content." And I'm like, "Okay, let's
31:05see. Oh, I do Counter-Strike, I do
31:07Battlefield, and I do Call of Duty."
31:08It's like, bro, like these are like
31:11completely different things. And then
31:12you can take the ex exact same thing
31:14into like, you know, a business channel
31:16or like, you know, if if you're like a
31:17health channel. Let's just say you're a
31:18health and fitness channel. It's like,
31:19well, there's a big difference between
31:20bodybuilding and yoga and stretching.
31:23And these are all different niches with
31:25different audience profiles. And people
31:27are so dialed in on what they like that
31:29you can't jump around as much as you
31:31think.
31:32>> Yeah. I think any of the kind of new
31:34categories need to be somewhat adjacent.
31:36You don't want these like crazy
31:37contrasts. And I also feel like it's
31:39like for us it's a maniacal focus on
31:41looking through a business lens and like
31:43I obviously have other passions but I
31:45know that we need a certain amount of
31:46kind of escape velocity where I can
31:48start going deep with like health and
31:50wellness type people or you know in a
31:52perfect world like Joe Rogan can bring
31:53on MMA and comedy like I love all that
31:56random stuff but you just you have to
31:58stay super deep and narrow and then
31:59incrementally bring on more categories.
32:01Do you agree with that?
32:02>> I 100% agree with that. And the thing is
32:04it it kind of goes back to our TAM
32:06discussion which is like there are
32:08sometimes you you're attracted to like
32:10going after the biggest broadest thing
32:11but that is the most competitive right
32:13you can't go that way. So what I mean by
32:15that is you can't really start broad and
32:18go narrow. Just doesn't really work. You
32:20can start narrow and just gradually
32:22expand and grow outwards and grow
32:24outwards and grow outwards. Like I think
32:26nearly every channel I've ever worked on
32:27that has grown to become a massive
32:29channel. They've started in something
32:31very small and then they've just
32:33expanded expanded expanded. So Forest
32:36Galante is right now the most viewed
32:38wildlife channel on YouTube and he's our
32:40client. We signed him at 20 20 to 30,000
32:43views a video back in 2023. We realized
32:46that his kind of niche within a niche,
32:47so wildlife is a niche, right? But his
32:49niche within a niche is like extinct
32:51animals. So back then most of our videos
32:54most of our topics were around extinct
32:56animals. They were around like you know
32:57lizards, dangerous animals, things that
32:59went extinct like the pylo scenes which
33:02are like the Tasmanian tiger or
33:03something. And if you look at the
33:06channel now it's like we're doing
33:08private tours of big zoos. We're doing
33:10like videos with big cats. We're getting
33:11millions of views per video. But like we
33:13didn't start like that. We expanded out
33:14over time.
33:16>> Deep and narrow start there. I mean we
33:17started with ecom operators. Then we
33:18kind of brought in CPG operators and now
33:20we're expanding to operators in business
33:22and kind of different categories. So I
33:24completely agree. I want to kind of
33:28from a pattern recognition perspective
33:30let the audience know like what are
33:32those true you know we keep talking
33:34about views. What are those true kind of
33:35hallmarks and things that need to be
33:36consistent for these videos to get 1,
33:38five, 10 million views? Like what are
33:40those key things that you kind of look
33:41for there?
33:43>> So yeah, CCM fit. They have CCM fit. I
33:47always like to think that they can be
33:49understood in a second. So, a really
33:52interesting thing about us as humans is
33:53is I think when we're actually making
33:55something, we assume that people are
33:57going to give it a lot more
33:58consideration than they do. I'm sure you
34:00see that all the time in, you know,
34:01e-commerce and and whatnot. It's like
34:03you think people are going to look at it
34:04and be like, "Oh, yeah. I see the way he
34:05made that label like that. That's going
34:06to make me buy." Whereas, it's really
34:08usually much more impulsive than that.
34:10And I always invite people if you have
34:12like, you know, a partner or just a
34:14friend and they're watching YouTube, pay
34:16attention. See how they're watching
34:17YouTube, right? Let's just say, you
34:18know, you're with your friend and
34:19they're watching YouTube on a TV.
34:21They're just they're just they're
34:22scrolling like this through videos.
34:23They're clicking clicking clicking.
34:24Things are getting a second of time.
34:27They're getting a second. That's it.
34:28They're getting a second. And on your
34:30phone, you're scrolling by videos like
34:31this, right? And yet when we're making a
34:33video, an idea, we're like, you know,
34:35sometimes I'll have people come up to me
34:37in the street. You know, I very rarely,
34:38but someone will get recognized and then
34:39someone's like, "Oh my god, I've got a
34:41crazy viral idea I want to pitch to
34:42you." And I'm like, "Okay." And then
34:44they go, "So what's going to happen is
34:46it's going to be like this and then this
34:48person's going to come in and we're" and
34:49I'm like, "Dude, can you explain that
34:52again?" And then they explain it again.
34:53I'm like, "You've taken like 30 or 40
34:55seconds to explain what this video is."
34:58Every video I've worked on that's had 10
35:00million views. I've even worked on
35:01videos with over 100 million views, you
35:03can always just say them in one second
35:06and people are like, I get it. I get it
35:07right away. So, I always like to think
35:09the hallmark, one of the biggest
35:10hallmarks of viral ideas is like, can it
35:13pass the glance test? Can someone just
35:15look at it and be like, oh, I get that.
35:16I want to watch that. And a big problem
35:18new creators make, a big problem
35:19entrepreneurs make on YouTube is they
35:21just make these very complicated titles,
35:23too long, too many things happening. And
35:26I'm like, if you can't put your idea
35:28into a sentence that is just one line
35:30that I can understand, a log line, it's
35:33not a good idea. I don't care. They're
35:35like, it's the best video idea ever. I
35:36just need a way to package it. I'm like,
35:38well, then it's not a good idea. It's
35:39just it's just a random thought. So
35:42>> simple, not complex words. You can't do
35:44anything. You just need to increase the
35:46absor absorption rate. Anybody quick
35:48glance can see it real quick and
35:49understand and know where you're going
35:50to go. So CCN I would just say
35:53simplicity is another big one. What else
35:56you have here?
35:57>> I would say big thing for me is like
35:59universal appeal. So, it kind of goes a
36:02bit back to the core casual noob, but
36:03basically when I was making videos on my
36:07channel, I went into the niche and it
36:09was, you know, YouTube education content
36:11and lots of great creators in YouTube
36:14education space, but it was all like,
36:16you know, five packaging tips or 10 ways
36:19to grow a YouTube channel in 2018, you
36:22know, this sort of stuff. And it was
36:23getting 5 10 15,000 views a video. I
36:26went in and I said, I think I can get a
36:29million views a video in this space,
36:30which no one was doing. And I went in
36:33and, you know, flash forward five or six
36:36years of doing that, I was doing a
36:37million views an episode in that space.
36:40And what I used was this idea that like
36:43I want to make videos that are
36:44interesting to the biggest YouTuber in
36:47the world and my mother at the same
36:49time. And I wanted to make ideas that
36:51like, you know, my mother would watch
36:52and be like, "This is really
36:53interesting." Biggest YouTuber in the
36:54world be like, "This is really
36:54interesting. I'm still getting stuff."
36:56And if you ever go back, I I think this
36:57is interesting. You go back and watch
36:59like kids movies, the best kids movies,
37:01you watch them as a kid, they were
37:03great. You're like, "This is amazing."
37:04You watch them as an adult and you're
37:06like, "This is still great. This is even
37:07better than I thought. It's layered and
37:08there's like multiple things for every
37:10every person." So, I think a big thing I
37:12look for as well is just that universal
37:13appeal. Like this can be watched by a
37:16large number of people, you know, and
37:18not be alienating. Like there's this
37:20little example I give all the time,
37:22which is so small, but like I have this
37:23friend in Dallas. He had, you know, big
37:24YouTube channel over a million
37:25subscribers. I was reviewing one of his
37:27videos with him and he introduced his in
37:30the video he he just sort of like had
37:33this character, let's just call, let's
37:34say her name was like Katie, right? And
37:37Katie came in and and he's like, "Okay,
37:39today Katie, you're going to go do
37:40this." And she's like, "Okay." And she
37:41goes and starts doing it. And then flash
37:44forward like 5 minutes later, he goes,
37:45"Katie, come over here." And Katie comes
37:47over and he kisses her. And I'm like,
37:50"What? They're romantically involved? I
37:53didn't know that. Right. And I sat on
37:55the call. I'm like, "What's this?" And
37:57he goes, "That's my girlfriend." And I'm
37:58like, "Well, I didn't know it was your
38:00girlfriend and you just kissed her in
38:01the video." And he's like, "Oh, my
38:02audience knows." He's like, "Okay, your
38:04audience that watches you know, but do
38:05the new viewers know?" And now they feel
38:07in it? And he's like, "Oh, so then
38:08should I like set it up every video and
38:10be like, "She's my girlfriend?" And I'm
38:11like, "No, because then that also is
38:12annoying to the core viewers cuz then
38:13they're having to be constantly
38:14reintroduced. So, how do you do it?"
38:15Well, instead of being like, "Hey
38:17everyone, this is my girlfriend, Katie."
38:18You might say something like, "Katie,
38:20look, I know you're my girlfriend, but
38:22can you go do this really quickly?" Now,
38:24you've sewn that seed into the viewer's
38:25head that they know, "Oh, that's his
38:26girlfriend." So, when you kiss her
38:27later, it doesn't feel like, "Why did he
38:29do that?" That's that's, you know, a
38:31kind of a gap or a plot hole. And I
38:34think that comes back to the same
38:36principle of making videos that as many
38:38people can watch without feeling like
38:39they're losing something or missing
38:41something. I always hate when people
38:43say, "You probably saw my last video."
38:45No, I didn't. I didn't watch your last
38:46video, you know. Oh. Oh, like as we
38:49discussed last week. What you mean
38:50discussed last week? This is the first
38:51time I've been here. So, I always like
38:53look at my video and put it through the
38:55lens of can someone who has never
38:56watched me before watch this video and
38:59enjoy it.
39:00>> I think the big takeaway here is all
39:02roads lead to CCN. You have to look, you
39:04have to filter through that in every
39:06single level, title, thumbnail, the
39:08actual core of the video to make sure
39:09everybody has full context and just get
39:11creative like how how you just mentioned
39:13100%.
39:14>> Any other big ones do you think there
39:15that we need to touch on?
39:17So, another one that I see which is, you
39:20know, we we're going to talk more about
39:21packaging as we go through the episode
39:23together, but I think when I look at
39:25these videos that have 10, 50, 100
39:27million views, they always pose a
39:29question that you have to click to
39:31answer. So, not only are like from a
39:33pure like objective point of view,
39:34they're appealing to lots of people.
39:35They've got universal appeal. They they
39:37the CCNA, all this stuff, they put
39:39something in front of you that you look
39:40at and you say, I need to click this to
39:43get the answer, right? So, going to five
39:46NBA games in 50 hours, it's like, I need
39:47to click this to see if he actually did
39:49it. Like, what games did he go to? Like,
39:51did he like how did he get there? How is
39:52this even possible? So, the best videos
39:55on YouTube, I think they create this
39:56like dynamic where like you're almost
39:58feeling like you're having to like
39:59unpause.
40:00Like you're having to click unpause to
40:02watch it. And I always like to say that
40:04like, you know, if you put an idea in
40:05front of someone like and they're just
40:07about to go do something really
40:08important, is it good enough where
40:09they're like, I need to watch this
40:10first.
40:12>> Curiosity gap is the big thing there.
40:14Just open it up and make people clip in.
40:16>> So, I feel like a lot of people get
40:19confused between like novel ideas and
40:22original ideas. How do you look at just
40:24ideas in general and how do you kind of
40:26like ideulate all of these ideas?
40:28>> There's three main sources of great
40:30YouTube ideas in my opinion. You have
40:32internal, external, and innovation.
40:36Internal ideas are ideas that have like
40:38worked for you previously. And it's it's
40:40so funny like you know quite often,
40:42look, we're really good at what we do,
40:43but quite often people expect us to kind
40:45of like come in with some like crazy
40:47fresh unique idea that's never been done
40:49before. One of the first things we do
40:51when we work on a channel is we go
40:52through and we look at what are videos
40:54they have done in the past that have
40:55worked well. Can we put a twist on this?
40:58Can we adapt it? Can we improve it? Can
41:00we do something different with this
41:01idea? And so often it is just like oh do
41:04that again. And they're like but but but
41:06my viewers they they would already have
41:08seen that. It's like content moves fast.
41:10Like people have forgot about it. Do it
41:12again. Right? I used to run one of the
41:14biggest travel pages on Instagram for
41:16Ireland. It was called Discovering
41:18Ireland. And what I noticed really
41:20quickly is I would just basically have
41:22five or six photos that I would post
41:24every year, the same photos. And like at
41:26the time I was like, I can't post this.
41:27My my followers have already seen that
41:29photo of the beautiful cliffs. It's like
41:31they they want to see it again, right?
41:33So internal ideas to me are all about
41:35like what has performed well for you in
41:37the past. Is there ways you can do it
41:38again? Can you repeat it? Can you double
41:40down? And I think what's interesting in
41:412026 is YouTube strategy has become more
41:44common. When I started this, like
41:46YouTube strategy wasn't even a thing.
41:47You should a YouTube strategist wasn't a
41:49thing. I would tell people I'm YouTube
41:50strategist. They'd be like, "What?
41:51What's that?" And I was being paid $50
41:53an hour. Like it was just not a skill
41:55that was valued or anyone knew about.
41:57But nowadays, it's so common place that
41:58like people know what outlier ideation
42:01is or what like doubling down is. So if
42:03you make an idea that does well, someone
42:05else is going to copy that pretty
42:06quickly. I want to be the own person, my
42:08own person to copy myself. I want to
42:10like double down quick. So those are
42:13internal ideas. External ideas are
42:15basically this idea of outlaw ideation.
42:17So what are ideas that have
42:19overperformed for other channels in my
42:21niche and in adjacent niches. So I will
42:24use tools like we mentioned earlier,
42:25these outlier tools, one of 10, view
42:27stats, Vid IQ, they all they all all do
42:29these different things and I will go
42:31through and I will look for ideas that
42:33have overperformed the channel average
42:35usually by three or 4x. So at least 3x
42:37the channel's average. So if a you know
42:39channel is doing like 100,000 views a
42:41video, if they have a video that gets 3
42:42400,000 views, that's interesting to me.
42:44There's something about that whether
42:46they meant it or not, they stumbled
42:47across something that worked. So me as a
42:49creator, I want to go in and figure out
42:51like is there a way I can adapt that? So
42:53>> how does your brain kind of filter all
42:55these? One of them is obviously the
42:57topic. I would say title is one,
42:59thumbnail is one. Like what are the big
43:00things that you're looking for to find
43:02those kind of similarities that you
43:04could bring to your videos? I would say
43:06usually when I'm using Outlaw radiation
43:07and you you do see a video that has 3
43:09400,000 views, it's kind of rarely
43:11something about the editing or the
43:14intro. Not the retention isn't really
43:15important. It is, but it is usually just
43:18like the title, the thumbnail, just
43:21something about that. Whether it's like
43:23how they package it different to their
43:24other videos. Like quite often I'll look
43:26at it and say I won't just look at the
43:27video that got 400,000 views. I'll look
43:29at the videos that got 100,000 views and
43:30say what is different about these
43:32videos? Like is there did they try
43:33different formats? Did they try a
43:34different style? Did they try a
43:36different title? And really what I'm
43:38doing with with external ideation is I'm
43:41not just looking at what worked and
43:42copying it. I'm looking at what worked.
43:44I'm taking lots of them. Almost like
43:45imagine you just have this big pile of
43:47ideas that worked in other niches. So if
43:48I'm a golf channel, what am I looking
43:50at? I'm looking at every other golf
43:51channel in the last, let's say, 365
43:54days. What are the videos that have
43:56three or 4x the average views on their
43:58channel? I'm taking all those ideas. I'm
43:59putting them in my brain. Then I'm
44:00saying, well, what's adjacent to golf?
44:03What are other hobbies or niches that
44:04are kind of similar to golf? I'm going
44:05to say fishing. It seems very different,
44:07but like technically it's enjoyed by a
44:08very similar demographic to golf. You
44:10know, it involves a lot of equipment
44:12like rods and you got your clubs. It's a
44:14pursuit. It's a hobby. It's a pastime.
44:16Okay. I'm also going to look at all the
44:18fishing channels. What were outliers for
44:19fishing channels? Oh, someone made a
44:21video where they, you know, fished with
44:23wooden fishing rods. Maybe I play around
44:26of golf with wooden golf clubs, right?
44:27Like there's, you know, definitely ways
44:28you can take adjacent niches and combine
44:31them. What I'm doing there is I'm taking
44:33all my internal ideas, all the ideas
44:34that work for us, all the ideas that
44:36have worked for other people and other
44:37niches similar to mine, and I'm kind of
44:39putting them all together like they're
44:40at the top of this funnel, which we can
44:41probably visualize in some way, and just
44:44thinking like, okay, let's put those all
44:46into my brainstorming funnel. And then
44:48the last one is innovation. That's the
44:50one that you you really started this
44:51question with, which is like this idea
44:53of novel, new, completely fresh, and
44:56different. I'm going to make a somewhat
44:58controversial statement, which is I
44:59think for a lot of small creators at the
45:01start, coming up with completely fresh
45:03new ideas is quite challenging and you
45:06should do it, but it should probably be
45:07something that's like a percentage of
45:09your strategy. Maybe it's like 20% of
45:11your videos are, you know, things that
45:13you're trying that have never been done
45:14before. And, you know, how do you come
45:16up with those ideas? I mean, that's the
45:18hardest thing to actually sort of create
45:19a system around. It's like what has
45:21never been done before? Something I I
45:23like to do is like, what if I combined
45:25two different things to create something
45:26new? That's how I created my channel. No
45:28one was doing video essay breakdowns on
45:30YouTube channels before I did in 2016
45:33was when I posted my first one. I saw
45:35people doing video essay breakdowns on
45:37Hollywood. I saw people doing like
45:39detailed business sort of whiteboard
45:40videos about business and I said, "What
45:42if I did that for YouTube?"
45:43>> Just took the format and just brought it
45:44to your topic.
45:45>> Yeah. I blended them together to create
45:47something new. So innov innovation is
45:49still like a powerful like tactic with
45:51this with this funnel. But the idea for
45:54me is I think a lot of smaller creators
45:56and you know even like entrepreneurs and
45:58people that come into this space every
46:00idea they make is just like I have no
46:02evidence this is going to work. I just
46:03think it's cool and I'll make it. And if
46:05you're goal is to make YouTube a fun
46:07hobby. That's great. But if your goal is
46:09to grow the biggest channel on YouTube
46:11which is my goal in every niche I'm in.
46:12If I work with a finance channel, which
46:14we have, I say I want to build this to
46:16be the biggest finance channel in the
46:17world. If I work with a wildlife
46:18channel, biggest wildlife channel in the
46:19world, that is my goal with every every
46:21niche, there's got to be like a fair
46:23amount of emphasis put on like data,
46:25what's working, what's worked for us,
46:27what's worked for other people.
46:29>> Guys, this podcast is not for hobbyists
46:31here. We're here to to go deep. So,
46:32completely agree with you there. So I
46:34think taking a step back again, I think
46:36there's a lot of operators on here that
46:38their YouTube is a corporate dumping
46:40ground and we want to get them kind of
46:42on the right track. So looking at kind
46:43of those three prongs, if you have
46:45nothing, start external, see what's
46:47working, test some stuff on your side.
46:50Once you have x amount of videos, then
46:51maybe look inward internal, use what's
46:54working, kind of reiterate, and then
46:56once you have like a little bit of
46:57scale, that's when you can start
46:58innovating and kind of taking new shots
46:59on that.
47:00>> That's beautifully put. Yeah. like spot
47:03on because
47:04>> if you start with that like what
47:05actually happens is like you know
47:06because when I when I say the word
47:07internal to someone they're like well I
47:08have no videos that have worked yet.
47:10>> At the same time you know on that point
47:12I do sometimes think like if you're
47:13averaging a,000 views a video and you
47:15have a video with 5,000 views still data
47:18it's still an overperformer. It might
47:20seem small but it's still an
47:21overperformer but like at the start you
47:23might not have that. So yeah, it is just
47:24a case of like let me go and find if I
47:27was just starting a completely new
47:29channel in any niche, you know, let's
47:30just say it's health and wellness, let's
47:31just say it's beverages, let's just say
47:33it's like finance, website builders.
47:36First thing I'm doing from scratch is I
47:38am going I'm using these tools. I'm
47:40finding every single outlier in this
47:42niche and adjacent niches over the last
47:45two years, maybe there's like a thousand
47:47and I'm taking them and I'm saying, what
47:49is my spin on that? What is my spin on
47:50that? What is my twist on that on each
47:52one of them?
47:53>> Yeah, for people out there listening,
47:54the best YouTube pages are doing this.
47:56Like it's so funny, man, cuz you just
47:58see I remember we actually used one of
48:00the titles for it. It was like someone I
48:02think it was maybe hormonia or my first
48:03million. They talked about like the gold
48:05rush of something. It was an outlier. It
48:07performed well and then you start seeing
48:08all these kind of business channels that
48:10are ahead and understand YouTube using
48:12gold rush is it has its time. It does
48:15well and then it's kind of on to the
48:16next one. So, it's really about finding
48:18it and then just squeezing as much juice
48:20out of it while the juice is still good
48:22and then maybe you revisit it years down
48:24the line.
48:24>> Yeah. And the thing about doing it and
48:26this is this is why I love that you said
48:28that and I think this is why at a
48:30certain point it just becomes around
48:31surrounding yourself with with like
48:33outliers just like if I don't know if
48:34you want to be like really fit like you
48:36surround yourself with like loads of
48:37guys that have 10% body fat and you're
48:38like okay I'm going to start maybe I'm
48:40going to skip that burger. I'm going to
48:41start dieting and you know trying to get
48:42better. I think with YouTube, if you're
48:44just surrounding yourself with videos,
48:45like I I like to think of my brain as
48:47just like I am just putting things
48:48through my eyes all the time that have
48:50worked for other people to try to like
48:52then when I have a problem or when I
48:53have an idea I need to come up with,
48:55think about, oh, that went viral for
48:56that channel. I can pull brain videos
48:58from my brain that were like viral on a
49:00channel 6 years ago and be like that
49:02could work for this channel or that
49:03could work for this thing. And it comes
49:04from surrounding yourself. And one idea
49:06I I really like which we came up with
49:09with a client that I used to work with,
49:10Noah Kagan. I'm not sure if you know
49:12Noah before.
49:12>> I know. Crazy Noah in Austin.
49:14>> Yeah, absolutely. Legend. But I remember
49:16I came into his channel. He was doing
49:17like maybe like 5 or 10,000 views a
49:20video at the time. And I worked with his
49:22creative director, a guy named Jeremy, a
49:24great guy.
49:24>> And the sort of goal for them was
49:27simple. It was like, we want to build
49:28bigger videos. We want to go more viral.
49:31So they came up with this idea with us
49:34which was like asking millionaires how
49:36to make a million dollars. Now if you
49:38look on YouTube right now, that is like
49:39everywhere, right? There's like a
49:40million people doing it. But what's
49:41interesting, you might have even seen
49:43this thumbnail. I'm sure we can show
49:44examples of this, but this like concept
49:46of like someone with their hands
49:48outstretched, someone answering a door,
49:49and then some yellow text in the middle.
49:50It's like, "How did you get rich?" or
49:51whatever. That actually came from from
49:53me and from us, from my team.
49:54>> Wow.
49:55>> Back in 200 I think 21.
49:58And
49:58>> I've seen videos of him like knocking on
50:00door people's doors in just big houses
50:01and being like, "How'd you get rich?"
50:02>> Exactly. And what happened was was
50:04interesting is this idea was in front of
50:06us. We were thinking about it and I was
50:08just like, "Oh, there was a video that
50:10went viral a cooking video that went
50:13viral three years ago which was titled
50:16asking Canadians to cook them dinner in
50:17their kitchen." And it was a guy who
50:19went and knocked on doors and he had
50:21this in the thumbnail he had this piece
50:22of text which said, "Can I cook in your
50:24kitchen?" And it had someone answering
50:25the door kind of like shocked, right?
50:27That got like 9 million views at the
50:29time in on a very small channel. I saw
50:31it because I've been tracking videos for
50:34decades, right? So, I saw it and I was
50:36like, "Huh, someday I'm going to use
50:37that." Sitting there with Noah, he's
50:39averaging 5 to 10,000 views a video with
50:41his team. And it's like this this video,
50:44which is like asking millionaires how to
50:45make a million dollars. We're going to
50:46go knock on people's doors and ask them
50:48how they got rich. And I'm like, "Oh my
50:50god, I've got the thumb concept." Like,
50:52let's put Noah here with his hands
50:53outstretched. Let's put a backwards cap
50:55on him. If you actually go look, we can
50:56show the references. I'll send them to
50:57you afterwards. But the the actual
50:59reference from the the Canadian cooking
51:01channel had like a backwards cap on and
51:02he's asking like this. Put text in the
51:04middle. put the person there, have the
51:05person like sort of shocked and staring
51:07right at him, make it not too posed.
51:10Let's make that thumbnail. That video
51:11got 5 million views and created one of
51:14the biggest like trends in the whole
51:15business space on YouTube. And it was
51:16just from like combining multiple things
51:18together. And the actual title itself,
51:19right, Hermosi had made a title which
51:21was something like I asked a billionaire
51:22how to make a billion dollars. So when
51:24we were making the title, we were like,
51:26you know, asking millionaires how to get
51:27rich. I knocked on millionaires doors to
51:29ask them how to make more money. H let's
51:31let's think about this. I asked them I
51:33asked millionaires how to make a million
51:35dollars. So that kind of came from that
51:36Hermoszi title, right? So you see how
51:37like you're almost like Frankensteining
51:39like this thumbnail idea from this video
51:42and this title from this video and
51:44you're combining these all together to
51:45try to get like something new and fresh
51:47and then the actual concept for the
51:48video kind of came from like Daniel Mack
51:50like asking supercar owners how they got
51:52rich and you know you know what do you
51:54do for a living that kind of stuff. So
51:55you've kind of got this idea where
51:56you're taking short form a short form
51:58idea and making it long form. You're
51:59taking a title from Hermosi here and
52:00adapting it. You're taking a thumbnail
52:02concept from this random Canadian
52:03cooking channel and you're combining all
52:05together to get something that got five
52:06million views and became like the most
52:08viral business video of 2022.
52:10>> That's insane the amount of touch points
52:12that lead up to one video. I mean,
52:13people just see the end concept and they
52:15don't know kind of what goes into it.
52:16Guys, I love the guys at one of 10.
52:18We're going to pop down below some like
52:19link or coupon code or something for
52:21them. We've been using them since the
52:22beginning and yeah, I just think it's
52:25put a folder all the outliers and mix
52:26and match topics, formats, styles,
52:29anything and everything and just create
52:30your kind of own new thing. I want to
52:32get into just ideation in general kind
52:34of like your ideation system. How many
52:37ideas are you doing per video and is
52:39there any like principles or frameworks
52:40that you could share? Yeah, I think the
52:42way I think about it and I got this from
52:43Steve Jobs which is not that he told me
52:46personally which is
52:49110 one. So really when you think about
52:52it you start you have zero. So you start
52:54at zero then you decide well like
52:56roughly what are the guiding principles
52:58of what I want to make videos around. So
53:00at that point like you start to think
53:01about like well what's a core casual new
53:03viewer for for my channel? What are the
53:04videos that serve me the most? what are
53:05the videos that like I think are going
53:08to bring in the most correct viewers for
53:10my channel. It's not always about total
53:12viewers. It's also about like, you know,
53:13I want to make sure I get the right
53:14viewers for my channel. So, you kind of
53:16start to inform yourself a little bit
53:17about like what sort of viewers you're
53:19looking for. Then you think about this
53:21framework which I like to use which is
53:22the 80% strategy rule. And it's not the
53:25paro principle. It's very different.
53:27It's this idea that the best channels
53:29they are looking for videos that have
53:3180% overlap with each other. So, I
53:34talked about this earlier, but overlap
53:35is one of those things that people
53:36really overestimate. They think there's
53:38more overlap between things than there
53:39actually is. So, the 80% strategy rule
53:41is basically saying we need to look for
53:43videos that have 80% overlap with each
53:45other, topics that have 80% overlap with
53:46each other, and we should do that 80% of
53:48the time. So, we have this kind of 20%
53:51of the time where we can try something
53:52different, try something new. I've been
53:53accused in my career of like kind of
53:55creating it too many like boundaries for
53:57creators, like, oh, they can't
53:58experiment, they can't be creative. I'm
54:00like, you can experiment, you can be
54:01creative, just do it one in every four
54:03times or one every five times. If you're
54:05being creative and experimenting and
54:06trying something completely new, you
54:07either have to be a genius, you know,
54:09and great Casey Neistat. I mean, I'm not
54:11going to tell him what to do. He's a
54:13genius. But if you are like mere mortals
54:16like me and like most people, you've got
54:18to think through the lens of like is
54:20there overlap between these topics? So
54:22the 80% strategy overlap rule, it's like
54:24are these topics overlapping? And the
54:26simple question to me is just like, can
54:2880% of people who watch this video watch
54:31this video, watch this video? And that's
54:33really how I think about that.
54:35>> Guys, we've been doing that wrong. Sorry
54:37for the for the listeners out there.
54:38It's definitely not 80%. It's a little
54:40bit lower. Yeah, we try and kind of
54:41blend out on a per guest perspective.
54:43It's not 80%. It's a bit lower, but from
54:46a topic perspective. So, let's go
54:48through. You said 110 one. You start
54:50with the one idea under kind of this
54:52thesis and then how do you kind of
54:53ladder up? And are you saying 100 ideas?
54:55so easily. Yeah. So I would say right
54:58now like at any given time we have about
55:01five to 10 clients. Like we are we take
55:03the approach of like we are like almost
55:05like a boutique law firm that will win
55:07the case. But our case is like growing
55:09your YouTube channel. So we I've just
55:11assembled a team of the smartest people
55:13on YouTube. Like my lead YouTube
55:15strategist right now actually had his
55:16own channel with over a million
55:17subscribers and average like three
55:19million views a video. He quit it to
55:21come work with me. Like we just have
55:22this team of killers that just get
55:23YouTube better than anyone else. And
55:26what we will basically do is we will
55:27take each client and we do the ideation.
55:30So they outsource the ideation to us. So
55:32for each client, we're usually ideating
55:34anywhere between two, three, maybe even
55:37500 ideas for them every month. Now
55:40those are ideas that we ideate. They
55:41don't see that many. They see five,
55:43right? So generally we look at it like
55:45if we if we want to come up with five
55:47ideas, we're probably going to have to
55:48come up with 500. So that's where the
55:50110 one comes from. If you want to come
55:52up with a great idea, you start by
55:54coming up with 100 ideas. And this is
55:56the the sort of concept from Apple,
55:58which is like if we want to launch a
56:00great product or a great feature, like
56:01we've got to like brainstorm a hundred
56:03products and features and then whittle
56:04them down to be left with the one that
56:06is actually going to be the thing that
56:07moves the the lever. So for me with
56:10ideiation going back to that idea we
56:12talked about of internal external
56:13innovation to me that's all about just
56:15getting this big group and source of
56:17ideas that we can put into a funnel. So
56:19when I say come up with 100 ideas I am
56:21literally talking about we have a
56:22spreadsheet month over month for each
56:24clients where four or five different
56:26people are coming up with hundreds of
56:28ideas like every month in the
56:30spreadsheet most of which will never see
56:32the light of day. They're just like what
56:34about this what about that like what if
56:35we try this idea or what if we try that
56:36idea. So 1101 to me is you come up with
56:39100 ideas then you eliminate them down
56:43to like your best 10 using an
56:45elimination criteria. Now that can be a
56:47simple thing like I I actually suggest
56:49every channel has elimination criteria.
56:51You should have elimination criteria for
56:52guests. If it's like
56:53>> we have our own skill on cloud. It's a
56:54guest vetting system where we give like
56:56a blended average based on distribution
56:59communication skills. Does it fit the
57:00ICP? 100%.
57:02>> There you go. There you go. So like
57:03maybe you're if you're a YouTube
57:05channel, maybe your elimination criteria
57:07is like, you know, is this feasible? Can
57:09we easily title thumbnail it? That you
57:11wouldn't believe. Like I when I say we
57:12come up with 500 ideas for a client in a
57:15month, people might be like, that's
57:16overkill, that's over the top. Just by
57:18applying that one criteria of can we put
57:20it into a good title thumbnail, that
57:21could get rid of like twothirds of them
57:23because you can come up with great ideas
57:24and it's like there's not really an easy
57:26way to package that. So many times like
57:28I have like a younger team member, they
57:29come to me, they're like, "Patty, I'm so
57:31bullish on this idea. It's amazing. It's
57:33amazing. I'm like, "Okay, okay." And
57:34they're like, "It's it's so good." I'm
57:35like, "How do we put this in a
57:37thumbnail?" And it's like, "Okay, we're
57:39getting rid of the idea. It doesn't
57:40work." Right. So, guys, we're about to
57:42turn the corner and get into packaging
57:44soon. I completely agree. I want to tell
57:45you this cuz you're going to be proud of
57:46me. So, looking at guests like one of my
57:49buddies who's, you know, nine figure
57:50entrepreneur. I was just with him in New
57:52York and I want to have him on. our main
57:54conversation when you're getting a drink
57:56last week in New York is what's the
57:58packaging concept is like I can sit and
58:00have an interview but if we can't
58:01package it up into something then it's
58:03just it's not going to travel and it's
58:04not worth our time.
58:05>> Yeah,
58:06>> it's about packaging first.
58:07>> 100%. So like your anation creator might
58:09be like is it easy to package? Is it
58:11feasible? You know cuz like quite often
58:13like especially when we're ideating for
58:14clients like Red Bull like my team come
58:16up with ideas I'm like I don't think
58:17it's possible to put a car on the moon
58:19you know like it's great but it's not
58:20feasible. So like feasible could be
58:22different. And it's like I mean, you
58:23know, I'm sure you'd love to have Elon
58:25Musk on the pod. I'm not going to say
58:27you can't, but maybe right now it's less
58:29feasible than other guests, right? So, I
58:32think I always look at like feasibility.
58:34I look at aspirational view target that
58:37can eliminate a lot down as well. So,
58:39setting a view target for your channel,
58:41like if I was you and you know, I know
58:42that I'm averaging 100,000 views an
58:44episode between YouTube and and
58:46downloads, I would look at it and be
58:47like, huh, like what is my aspirational
58:49target? Well, I probably want to get to
58:51like 150 200,000 views an episode. So
58:54now, if you have a guest that comes
58:55along and you're like, I think they're a
58:56good guest, but I think they're probably
58:57going to get like 20 30,000 views. I
58:59don't think there's quite enough
59:00evidence that they can get out there and
59:01get the views that I want. You probably
59:03shouldn't do that episode, as harsh and
59:05strict as that sounds. If your goal is
59:07pure growth, I I'm saying everything
59:09through a lens of like growing the
59:10biggest possible audience, which is not
59:12always the goal, but you know, but
59:13basically, you have this kind of
59:14criteria. I usually suggest it being
59:16like four or five different points. this
59:19idea your ideas have to tick off those
59:20before getting down. If you have 100
59:22ideas, you put them through your funnel,
59:23you put them through the elimination
59:24criteria and you're left with 30, your
59:28elimination criteria is probably
59:29garbage. It's probably just easy to get
59:30through.
59:31>> Needs to be more rigorous, harder to get
59:32through it.
59:33>> Yeah. If you're putting 100 ideas
59:34through and you're left with like one or
59:36two, it's probably too strict. So, you
59:39know, I like to look at the criteria of
59:41like, can we just give ourselves these
59:44five things that a channel a video needs
59:46for our channel? you know, if it doesn't
59:47have this, it we shouldn't make it. An
59:49example for my channel was like my view
59:52target was always a million views. So,
59:53it's very simple. Like I would analyze
59:55these YouTubers and how they grew. Well,
59:57it's kind of interesting if if like the
59:59YouTuber themselves aren't averaging
1:00:00over a million views a video. It's kind
1:00:02of unlikely that they're going to get
1:00:03over a million views a video when I do a
1:00:05meta analysis on their channel. So, I'm
1:00:07not going to make videos on creators who
1:00:10aren't getting over a million views a
1:00:11video. Like, that's kind of the lens of
1:00:12through I I look through strategy back
1:00:14then. So yeah, you got your right
1:00:16criteria. Hopefully that takes 100
1:00:18ideas. Maybe leaves you with the 10 ones
1:00:20that you're looking at of like, okay,
1:00:21these are the strongest. We've ideated
1:00:22them. They've gone through the funnel.
1:00:24They've came down. They've, you know,
1:00:25we've left with these 10 ideas. From
1:00:27there, with each of those 10 ideas, I'll
1:00:28usually do like a one page like idea
1:00:31slide is what I call them. And it's this
1:00:34idea of like a rough thumbnail sketch, a
1:00:36rough title or titles,
1:00:38>> Jesus.
1:00:38>> A rough skeleton, a rough kind of like
1:00:41log line of the video. And these these
1:00:42are for these 10 ideas. And probably
1:00:45nine of these 10 videos will never see
1:00:46the light of day. This is just to get to
1:00:47a point where now we have like imagine
1:00:48we have this beautiful wall and we're
1:00:50putting the 10 ideas and now we have
1:00:52these 10 different like potential
1:00:53directions to go or different ideas to
1:00:55come through. Then we have those 10.
1:00:58I'll if we have a team, even if I'm a
1:00:59solo creator, but let's just say we have
1:01:01a team. I just go, "Okay, everyone,
1:01:02let's get in the meeting. Which one do
1:01:04we think if we had to put our career on
1:01:06one of these videos, which one do we
1:01:07think is the best? That's the one we'll
1:01:09make." So to make a video on a channel,
1:01:11I think most people just think it just
1:01:12sort of goes like, "Oh, I came up with
1:01:13this idea. Let's do it." It's like we're
1:01:15bleeding for ideas. You know, we're
1:01:18hurting ourselves.
1:01:18>> For everybody out there listening, we're
1:01:20not doing enough either, clearly. So to
1:01:22tie a bow in it, it's kind of you start
1:01:24with just like knowing your audience,
1:01:25your ICP. Ladder up as many ideas as
1:01:28possible, 100, 200, 300, 400. Filter it
1:01:31down through the elimination criteria.
1:01:33And then ultimately, you go through this
1:01:35kind of one-page thing where it has
1:01:37title, thumbnail, rough sketch. Guys,
1:01:39we're going to put that one pager down
1:01:41below in a PDF and then subjectively
1:01:43everybody in the room is kind of picking
1:01:45who what are you most excited about? And
1:01:47you subjectively pick one and and you
1:01:48let it go.
1:01:49>> Yeah. And if you're a solo creator, it's
1:01:50just like out of these 10, if I had to
1:01:51pick one to put my career on it, like
1:01:53which would I pick?
1:01:55>> Gun to the head. I like that.
1:01:57>> Most creators are just duct taping
1:01:58together a bunch of different tools to
1:02:00run their podcast and their newsletter.
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1:03:32Let's double click on packaging because
1:03:34I think everybody that has listened thus
1:03:36far is thinking that they're not they're
1:03:37not doing enough and I think you would
1:03:39agree that packaging is everything. We
1:03:40talked about it being a click and watch
1:03:42platform YouTube. If they don't click,
1:03:43they don't watch. You've said a 20%
1:03:46better title can earn a 100 time more
1:03:49views, not 20 times more views. Why is
1:03:53that true? And why do people really not
1:03:54act on it? So there's this idea, it's
1:03:57kind of like the nonlinear returns idea
1:04:00I have for content, which is basically
1:04:03algorithms are multipliers, right? The
1:04:06YouTube algorithm has like this
1:04:07multiplication effect where essentially
1:04:09if something is a little bit better, it
1:04:11might be enough better to then reach,
1:04:13you know, so much of a wider audience
1:04:15because of how broad and exponential
1:04:17YouTube algorithm is. And it's kind of
1:04:19like this in a lot of disciplines,
1:04:20right? like the the best the player that
1:04:23makes it in the NBA, they're usually not
1:04:25like five times better than the player
1:04:27that doesn't, right? But they're like
1:04:29maybe 10% better in all the right ways.
1:04:31They're a little bit faster, they're a
1:04:32little bit stronger, they're a little
1:04:32bit more consistent. The player that
1:04:34doesn't make it or they make it semi-pro
1:04:37playing in Thailand, you know,
1:04:38>> close.
1:04:39>> Yeah, it's close. Maybe they're making
1:04:41>> 50k a year. The player that makes the
1:04:42NBA, maybe they're making 10 million a
1:04:44year. And it's like, well, he's only 10
1:04:46or 20% better than the other guy, but
1:04:48he's 10 or 20 10 or 20% better in a sort
1:04:51of exponential game with nonlinear
1:04:52returns. And I think the beautiful thing
1:04:54about YouTube is is it isn't predictable
1:04:57linear. It's not like, oh, if we make it
1:04:5910% better, it gets 10% more views. It's
1:05:01like, no, it it can actually occur where
1:05:03you make something a little bit better
1:05:05and it gets 100 times more views. We
1:05:07have this real example where we had
1:05:09someone in our training program and he
1:05:11was this like web designer channel. His
1:05:13name was Gabe and I'm sure we can show
1:05:16an example of it in the pod. And he had
1:05:19a video that was doing about a thousand
1:05:22views a day and it had like a decent
1:05:24thumbnail, like a pretty good thumbnail.
1:05:27My team sat down with him, brainstormed
1:05:29a new idea, he came with a new
1:05:30thumbnail, changed the thumbnail. So,
1:05:31this is this isn't even on a new video.
1:05:32This is on a video that already existed,
1:05:34that was already out there and was
1:05:35getting a,000 views a day. Within a day
1:05:37of changing the thumbnail, that video
1:05:38went from getting a,000 views a day to
1:05:4040,000 views a day. And it's like 40
1:05:43times more views basically with one
1:05:45change. And like if you look at the
1:05:47thumbnails side by side, I think if you
1:05:48just ask people on the street, they
1:05:49would say, "Yeah, the new one's like a
1:05:51bit better." Like it's like, you know,
1:05:53it's reasonably better. It's like maybe
1:05:5420 30% better, but it led to, you know,
1:05:5740 times more views. And I think it's
1:05:59just the fact that the YouTube algorithm
1:06:00is this multiplier. Like Jimmy, Mr.
1:06:03Beast, is the biggest creator in the
1:06:04world. He puts more effort and time in
1:06:07than anyone else. But I wouldn't say
1:06:09you'd look at his video and say it's
1:06:10like a hundred times better than this
1:06:12creator or that creator. It's like no,
1:06:13he's just understanding that he's
1:06:16playing an exponential game, a nonlinear
1:06:18game.
1:06:18>> What percent of time on packaging?
1:06:21>> So I like to say packaging is 50% of the
1:06:23game. I don't think it should be 50% of
1:06:25the time because that's kind of insane.
1:06:28But I would say let's just say let's
1:06:30just say you have 100 hours to make a
1:06:32YouTube video, right? Where should you
1:06:34put that time? If I was like ale, if I
1:06:36was a time allocator and I have 100
1:06:37hours, where would I put it? I think I
1:06:40would put 10 to 20 hours of that time
1:06:42towards packaging. And the the
1:06:45interesting thing about that is like
1:06:46people will say, well, how like how like
1:06:49how do you spend 20 hours making one
1:06:51image? It's like, okay, well, we don't
1:06:52make one image, we're making 50, right?
1:06:54Or we don't just make the image, we
1:06:57research every other, you know, title or
1:07:00thumbnail in our niche and see what we
1:07:02can take from them. We're spending hours
1:07:03researching. We're hiring a designer to
1:07:06come in and like come up with other
1:07:07ideas. We're like studying movie posters
1:07:09from the 80s, you know, it's like it's
1:07:11not just as simple as like making images
1:07:12for a thumbnail or writing titles for a
1:07:14title. But yeah, I think anywhere
1:07:17between 10 or 20% of the total time we
1:07:19spend on clients is on on the packaging.
1:07:21We'll often write like I I say this,
1:07:23this actually frustrates me. I I'll say
1:07:24like we write 50 titles for a video
1:07:26sometimes. People like you're insane.
1:07:27You're clinically insane. What's wrong
1:07:28with you? I'm like it doesn't take that
1:07:30long to write 50 titles. Like
1:07:31>> it doesn't we're good with that for
1:07:33titles and thumbnails. We go we go
1:07:34pretty hard on that.
1:07:35>> Good. I feel like the big thing and
1:07:37we're talking about packaging. Please
1:07:38add if if I'm missing any title,
1:07:40thumbnail, and idea. And I feel like
1:07:42idea is the one that we don't spend
1:07:45enough time on. Is there anything else
1:07:46kind of big under title, thumbnail, idea
1:07:48under prepackaging?
1:07:49>> Yeah, like that's spot on. The one thing
1:07:51I would add that's actually kind of
1:07:52interesting is it's not only your idea,
1:07:56title, thumbnail. It's how people
1:07:59enjoyed your last video. You know,
1:08:01that's that's quite important. Like
1:08:02think about it from your behavior. If
1:08:03you really enjoy the person's last
1:08:05video, then you see them again, you
1:08:07click it cuz you're like, "Oh, I really
1:08:09like their last video." And this
1:08:10actually creates sometimes quite
1:08:12interesting things for me because like I
1:08:13always talk about these like, you know,
1:08:14how much time we're putting into
1:08:15thumbnails, how like, you know, oh,
1:08:17we're spending like 10 grand on this
1:08:19thumbnail. We're like doing all this
1:08:20crazy stuff and then someone's like,
1:08:22"Look at the outdoor boys. He's just
1:08:23posting a screenshot or look at this
1:08:25channel. They're not even trying." And
1:08:26they'll get so many views. And it's like
1:08:27sometimes like the content is so good
1:08:30and the creator is so good that the
1:08:32brand of the thumbnail even if it's a
1:08:33bad thumbnail just becomes recognizable
1:08:35and the person's just like I want to
1:08:37click that. So that's like an
1:08:38interesting thing. Sometimes you might
1:08:40contend with this at a certain point. we
1:08:41might realize that like oh wow like
1:08:43people have become used to clicking our
1:08:45style of thumbnail and now we're sort of
1:08:47assessing it and saying there's probably
1:08:48a more optimal style of thumbnail for
1:08:49the podcast but if we do it then people
1:08:51won't know it's us and then that becomes
1:08:53like this this difficult game where you
1:08:54start to AB test and and play around
1:08:55with different options.
1:08:56>> We're we're actually there right now and
1:08:58it's about just kind of incrementally
1:09:00changing things. So, we'll keep kind of
1:09:02the POV of the guest on the same color
1:09:04theme, but now like on the left, as
1:09:06opposed to it being very kind of clean
1:09:08and brand from a typography perspective,
1:09:10we're now adding like images like we'll
1:09:12pop up right now the Peter Rahal
1:09:14thumbnail with like David Protein. They
1:09:16went through this whole entire lawsuit
1:09:17that got resolved and that thumbnail
1:09:19among other reasons. I mean, it's going
1:09:20nuclear right now. And that was like we
1:09:22tested 80% of it was the same. The one
1:09:24thing we changed was like, hey, let's
1:09:26put images on the left side. So yeah, I
1:09:28think you have to be incremental because
1:09:30you don't want to lose all that kind of
1:09:32brand equity that you've got from the
1:09:33past of people recognizing what the
1:09:35aesthetic looks like.
1:09:36>> Yeah.
1:09:36>> Like changing the color that would be
1:09:37bold cuz we're like people, you know,
1:09:40know our color. Let's show this in
1:09:42practice. So I want to pop up here a
1:09:44thumbnail that you did with Red Bull
1:09:46that went absolutely nuclear and I want
1:09:47to just kind of walk through why it did
1:09:50so well. Title, thumbnail, ideation,
1:09:52where did it start? Tell us everything.
1:09:53>> 100%. What one of my favorite things
1:09:55about this screenshot is this is a month
1:09:57after the video was posted, right? And
1:09:59it's on 18 million views.
1:10:01>> I think it's on like 30 now. It's on
1:10:03like 30 or 40 now. It's like
1:10:04>> disrespectful. We're going to re put up
1:10:07a new one with 30 million views.
1:10:08>> But I think there's a few things, right?
1:10:10Like first of all, the idea is great.
1:10:12World's fastest camera drone versus F1
1:10:14car. Like look, world's fastest camera
1:10:18drone. Like fastest is a superlative
1:10:21camera drone versus F1 car. If you
1:10:22associate F1 car with the fastest thing
1:10:23on earth, so that's interesting. What's
1:10:25going to win that battle? Max Versappen
1:10:27is the greatest driver in the world in
1:10:28my opinion, you know, that's obviously
1:10:30lending a huge amount of credibility to
1:10:31the title. So all those things are
1:10:32obvious, right? Like and I almost say
1:10:34those because people contend. They're
1:10:36like that would have always gone viral
1:10:37on the matter of the thumbnail. And like
1:10:39I, you know, my our thumbnail designer,
1:10:41I shouldn't say my our thumbnail
1:10:42designer Britney, who's in my opinion
1:10:44the best thumbnail designer in the
1:10:45world, she made this thumbnail. And I'm
1:10:47like, that has a huge impact on this
1:10:49video because if it's actually
1:10:51interesting, I had an argument about
1:10:53this video and about how we're going to
1:10:54package it. And someone else had like a
1:10:57different title thumbnail idea and it
1:10:58was still a good idea, but I just
1:11:00remember saying, I think with your title
1:11:01from my idea, this video is going to get
1:11:02a million views. I think with the one we
1:11:04want to go forward with, I think this
1:11:06video can get 10 million views plus. And
1:11:08I felt so confident. And that's the
1:11:10thing. It's like people will sometimes
1:11:11contend and be like, "Oh, it's a fast
1:11:13camera drone versus an F1 cover versus
1:11:15Max for stop and of course it's going to
1:11:16go viral." It's like, do you know how
1:11:17many videos out there have like all the
1:11:19ingredients to be great, but they're not
1:11:20packaged well and they just get no
1:11:22views? Like super common. So, what I
1:11:24love about it, great title, pause and
1:11:26action, right? Click to unpause. You
1:11:28have to click that video. It feels like
1:11:29you're actually seeing the start of a a
1:11:32video right there. You feel like you're
1:11:33you're seeing them revving up right
1:11:34beside the start line. You're clicking
1:11:36to just make that scene happen. got
1:11:39these like beautiful leading lines into
1:11:40the horizon that are just directing your
1:11:42focus towards the the the race itself.
1:11:44And look how simple it is. It's just
1:11:46clean, right? It's not over complicated.
1:11:48Max Rosappen is
1:11:51probably top three most famous drivers
1:11:53in the world. Like very recognizable
1:11:55face. Didn't put him in the thumbnail,
1:11:57right? Like because the actual thumb
1:11:58stuff didn't need them.
1:12:00>> Also under the notion that you probably
1:12:02don't want to double up on kind of
1:12:05themes or POVs. if you want to kind of
1:12:07use all the real estate there to kind of
1:12:09hit different senses. I would say
1:12:11>> 100%.
1:12:12>> I love the idea of like yeah like you're
1:12:14at the starting line or you're just
1:12:15waiting for it to start and it like it
1:12:17like baits you into like I have to click
1:12:19to start the race. Click click to
1:12:21unpause and unpause and unpause and
1:12:21unpause and unpause and unpause and
1:12:21unpause and unpause and unpause and
1:12:21unpause and pause like that that concept
1:12:22click to unp
1:12:24say that and this is another great
1:12:26example right like we have okay we have
1:12:27a video here with an F1 car and a drone
1:12:29and max for stappen that's probably cost
1:12:31you know an insane amount of money all
1:12:33this access incredible right and it was
1:12:34uploaded to a channel with tens of
1:12:36millions subscribers so a lot of people
1:12:37are going to look at that and be like oh
1:12:38click to unpause that sounds great like
1:12:40how am I going to do that with my small
1:12:42podcast or how am I going to do that
1:12:43with my health and wellness company or
1:12:45or whatever and what's interesting is
1:12:47like you can do click to unpause for a
1:12:49podcast. So, if I look at your
1:12:51thumbnails, they're kind of click to
1:12:53unpause and pause, right? It's someone
1:12:54speaking and it's generally like a quote
1:12:56or it's something beside them, right? If
1:12:59you look at like some of the biggest
1:13:00podcasts as well, they they're like
1:13:01someone mid speech, right? If if it was
1:13:03like poised, if I was for our thumbnail
1:13:05for this video, right? If I just sort of
1:13:07stood there and I was like, "Hey,"
1:13:08smiling at the camera,
1:13:11that's not click to unpause. Well,
1:13:13you're clicking to unpause some like
1:13:14idiot just with his thumb up. But if I'm
1:13:16like talking like this and there's like
1:13:19some text here, it's like, "Oh, I'm
1:13:20clicking to unpause on pause him saying
1:13:22what it's saying in the thumbnail." So,
1:13:23you can use it in so many different
1:13:24niches. Like, it's not just action.
1:13:27Yeah. And to unpack this for people out
1:13:28there listening like talking about kind
1:13:31of taking external videos and then
1:13:32making it yours. Like, I feel like I've
1:13:34seen, you know, other YouTubers like
1:13:36they're be a random YouTuber and they're
1:13:38racing like Usain Bolt. Like, you could
1:13:40say like they loosely took that idea off
1:13:43of this. Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:44>> So, like there's just a million
1:13:45different concepts within this concept
1:13:46that you can just kind of drag into your
1:13:48own
1:13:48>> and we loosely concept from a channel
1:13:50called CarWow in the UK which does drag
1:13:52races between cars, right? It's like we
1:13:54were thinking of so many different
1:13:55concepts and we were like look Carwow
1:13:56does these lineup films where they have
1:13:58the car and then you have like this you
1:13:59know thing like the other car behind
1:14:01let's sort of adapt that and try our
1:14:02version of that. So everything is kind
1:14:04of an adaptation of other things that
1:14:06work.
1:14:07>> Makes sense. So packaging idea title
1:14:09thumbnail. Let's kind of walk through
1:14:10the full packaging workflow from the
1:14:12moment when you have the idea to
1:14:14actually hitting publish just from like
1:14:16from a macro perspective.
1:14:18You have the ideas, then what? How do
1:14:20you go title, thumbnail? Like what's
1:14:21that kind of order of how you do things?
1:14:23>> So workflow to me is this. You have your
1:14:25idea. Next up,
1:14:26>> you have your 500 ideas that turn into
1:14:28one turn into one idea.
1:14:29>> You have your 500 You have your your
1:14:31idea gladiator that's that survive 500
1:14:34ideas in a fight to the death and it's
1:14:36been left there. All right, at that
1:14:37point you have an idea. To me, the next
1:14:40step is titles first. So, some people
1:14:42like come up with a thumbnail first. In
1:14:44my opinion, it's always better to come
1:14:45up with the title first because then
1:14:46that's sort of like saves you the time
1:14:48of having to work on the thumbnail. And
1:14:50also, like when you have your title, you
1:14:52can start to inform what the thumbnail
1:14:53should be because the thumbnail should
1:14:54complement the title, right? So, I'll
1:14:56come up with titles first. I like to
1:14:58encourage people to do a minimum of 10
1:14:59titles. So simple. It's like, you know,
1:15:02world's fastest camera drone versus F1
1:15:03car. like camera drone versus F1 car
1:15:05featuring Max for Mappen. Max Fappen
1:15:07races world's fastest camera drone with
1:15:09his F1 car, you know, like there's so
1:15:11many different titles. Like I I just
1:15:12said five in like 5 seconds. It's like
1:15:15it doesn't take that long to come up
1:15:16with a lot of titles. I like to just sit
1:15:17there and say what are the different
1:15:18ways I can tile them. We can we can get
1:15:20into like the title principles I use in
1:15:22a second as well. But simple 10 titles,
1:15:26you got your titles. Next up, thumbnail
1:15:27brief. So just like how you have like a
1:15:30photography brief or like a shoot brief
1:15:31for like a you know production or or
1:15:33whatever it might be we'll create a
1:15:35document that we will hand to our
1:15:36clients which basically says here are
1:15:38the five concepts to shoot in this
1:15:41video. What's really interesting is the
1:15:43vast majority of people and I would say
1:15:45even creators that have millions of
1:15:47subscribers big budgets they still to
1:15:49this day and it drives me insane. I
1:15:50don't get it. They'll still just shoot
1:15:53the video and then afterwards be like
1:15:54okay what's the thumbnail? And I'm like,
1:15:56[sighs]
1:15:57so we do these thumbns first where we'll
1:16:00be like, these are the five images we
1:16:02need you to capture on the day. So, oh,
1:16:03you're making a video with the
1:16:04Philadelphia Eagles with with Jaylen
1:16:06Hertz or you're you're making this video
1:16:08with an F1 car or whatever. We want it
1:16:10from these angles. We want it to be
1:16:11posed like this. We'll like draw up
1:16:14these concepts because you're either
1:16:15sketched. We'll like handdraw them.
1:16:16Sometimes they're sketched. We'll use
1:16:18image generation with AI to like give
1:16:20sort of rough ideas of what we're
1:16:21looking for. Even I have like committed
1:16:24absolute like artistry crimes making
1:16:28thumbnails before just with like
1:16:29terrible stick figures, but just
1:16:31something to be like this is what we're
1:16:33we're roughly looking for. So that's the
1:16:34thumbnail brief. That's step number two
1:16:36in the workflow. You have the thumbnail
1:16:38brief, then you go shoot the thumbnail.
1:16:40So that's just taking the photos. Now
1:16:41the interesting thing at this stage,
1:16:43again, this is a thing that sort of
1:16:44frustrates me is just like I I'll be
1:16:46like we'll take like I don't know like
1:16:47three or 4 hundred photos for a
1:16:49thumbnail and then everyone's like what?
1:16:51Like why do you do that? I'm like like
1:16:53if I just take my phone out like right
1:16:56like
1:16:59okay I just took 11 photos of you like
1:17:01in slightly different poses slightly
1:17:03different micro expressions. So when I'm
1:17:06asking like a creative to shoot a
1:17:07thumbnail. I'm like let's get it from
1:17:09different angles. Let's get them like
1:17:10facing a little bit different way. Let's
1:17:11try different lighting. So I'm just like
1:17:13for each of these concepts let's say in
1:17:14our thumb brief we have five concepts.
1:17:16like I'll want like 10, 20, 30 different
1:17:19shots in different angles or different
1:17:20positions for each of those thumbnails.
1:17:23And then after that, we'll take the
1:17:25source and then you go into the design
1:17:27phase. And you know, you've got your
1:17:29your thumb shoot done. You go into
1:17:30thumbnail design and that is going back
1:17:32to the original brief looking at the
1:17:34source and picking at least three
1:17:37separate different thumbnails that you
1:17:39are going to create from that source and
1:17:40designing and fully designing three
1:17:42different thumbnails at least. So, like
1:17:44I said earlier, we have worked on videos
1:17:46recently where we have made 50, 45, 50
1:17:49thumbnails. That does happen. But also,
1:17:52it's expensive, takes a lot of time, not
1:17:54always feasible. So, what I like to say
1:17:56is everyone should have time to make
1:17:58three thumbnails. Even if you're a
1:17:59beginner creator that only has like 10,
1:18:0120 hours a week to do this. You know,
1:18:02even if you're like a business owner
1:18:04who's just hired like a strategist to do
1:18:05this, you can probably still afford to
1:18:07put time into having three thumbnails
1:18:09for your videos. Like for your podcast,
1:18:10I'm sure you come up with a lot more
1:18:12than three. Yeah, I mean one of 10 has a
1:18:15thumbnail generator. It's pretty good.
1:18:16And like that is one thing that
1:18:18obviously you can come up with the
1:18:19ideas, but outsourcing to really really
1:18:20good thumbnail people, it's not crazy
1:18:22expensive for people out there listening
1:18:23like a couple hundred bucks. And I think
1:18:25to double click on what you're saying,
1:18:26this all leads back to following the
1:18:30data. So like when you're talking about
1:18:31thumbnails, like we've seen like should
1:18:34they wear a hat, should they not wear a
1:18:35hat, should there be a logo, should
1:18:36there not be a logo, are they smiling,
1:18:38are they serious? And then just like
1:18:40really, you know, the more data,
1:18:42internal data that you have, you start
1:18:43kind of seeing patterns and just kind of
1:18:45iterating off that. So yeah, I can only
1:18:48imagine when we have like a hundred
1:18:49interviews in, we're just going to have
1:18:50so much data on what works and what
1:18:51doesn't.
1:18:52>> Yeah. And then AB testing every single
1:18:53one and then like going back and AB
1:18:55testing them and being like, I wonder if
1:18:56I move the text down a little bit or
1:18:57whatever. It's like I think people would
1:18:59assume that the the best people on
1:19:02YouTube are the most creative. And
1:19:03sometimes that's true, but I think quite
1:19:05often they're actually more like
1:19:07architects, engineers, than pure like
1:19:10creatives like you might see in
1:19:11Hollywood. Like if you ask me like
1:19:13someone like a Mr. Beast, like he is an
1:19:15engineer. He's engineering virality.
1:19:17He's studying every angle, every way he
1:19:20can open a video, every way he can
1:19:22thumbnail a video to find the best
1:19:24video. And even for me myself, like I
1:19:26think I'm a creative person. Like my
1:19:27parents are both writers. I used to want
1:19:29to be a like a a writer. That was like
1:19:31my biggest best skill in school actually
1:19:33was English. But I sort of think I view
1:19:36it through the lens of like an analyst
1:19:39and like a a data analyst of like what
1:19:40are the trends? What's the pattern
1:19:42recognition? One of my friends owned a
1:19:44very big performance marketing company.
1:19:45He spends a lot of time with me and he's
1:19:47just like dude I think you the skills
1:19:49you're using for this are kind of the
1:19:50same skills as performance marketing.
1:19:51It's like the different ad copy like
1:19:53tweaking things, testing it. Okay, if I
1:19:55if I like have the ad running at this
1:19:57time of day, if I use this text, if I
1:19:58use this color, does it convert better?
1:19:59It's like that's the same thing with
1:20:01packaging. It's like the same game.
1:20:03>> I completely agree. I feel like the
1:20:04title should be like creative analyst
1:20:05100%.
1:20:06>> Yeah.
1:20:07>> And I feel like the people that are
1:20:08getting the asymmetric outcomes in this
1:20:10world usually are creative first and
1:20:12they're not leaning on the analytics and
1:20:14these kind of principles and frameworks
1:20:15that Patty is giving you all in this
1:20:17episode. That is how you win is you're
1:20:20taking all these frameworks and making
1:20:22it objective, not like so subjective. To
1:20:24tie a bow on that, what is the minimum
1:20:26amount of titles and thumbnails people
1:20:27should have when they put out a video? I
1:20:29think minimum 10 titles, three
1:20:32thumbnails. Like I actually I don't have
1:20:34it in my contracts anymore, but for a
1:20:36certain point I had it as a contract
1:20:37line item that like it's a
1:20:38non-negotiable. You're going to make
1:20:39three thumbnails a video. If you don't,
1:20:40I'm just not going to sign you as a
1:20:42client.
1:20:42>> Like
1:20:42>> under the notion that you want to be set
1:20:44up for success. Like if they don't do
1:20:45that, then you can't even do your job.
1:20:47>> Yeah. I'm like I don't like cuz cuz I
1:20:48like I don't care about the the
1:20:50business. Like I do care about the
1:20:51business of course, but like I care my
1:20:54my whole career is built on case studies
1:20:56and growing channels. So, I I go fully
1:20:59in on the channels we work with and I'm
1:21:00like, I want to grow this channel to be
1:21:01the biggest channel in the world. So, if
1:21:02you're not willing to make three
1:21:03thumbnails per video, like, you're not
1:21:04gonna be our client. Doesn't matter if
1:21:05you want to pay us 100,000 a month,
1:21:06we're not gonna take it.
1:21:09>> Yeah. Out of 10 titles, let's call it
1:21:11six thumbnails. You probably should have
1:21:12more than three. Six thumbnails. You
1:21:14press go and you publish. What does that
1:21:16look like? It's 8:00 a.m. PST. What does
1:21:19it look like in Patty's World once you
1:21:20press publish?
1:21:21>> Depends on the channel. So, with the big
1:21:23channels we work in, like we had a I'm
1:21:26not going to name the channel, but we
1:21:26had a video recently where in the first
1:21:29day it did 4 million views and it was a
1:21:31failure. People were like, "What's
1:21:33happening? It's not working. Must be
1:21:35nice." So, it depends on the channel,
1:21:37right? But basically, the way I like to
1:21:40think about it, you post the video. I
1:21:41always like to just pick the You come up
1:21:43with 10 titles. I like to pick the one
1:21:45title I feel the strongest about. If we
1:21:46have a team, we'll discuss it together.
1:21:47Which one title would we put our career
1:21:49behind as having the best chance of
1:21:51working? Pick that title. Leave that
1:21:53alone for now. Put that title in. Put
1:21:55your best three thumbnails in into your
1:21:57AB test. A little thing I would always
1:21:58like to say as well is like I'm looking
1:22:00for like differentiated thumbnails. I'm
1:22:02not just looking. What I see sometimes
1:22:03is like I'm like make three thumbnails
1:22:04and someone's like, "Okay." Then they
1:22:06make three thumbnails and the only thing
1:22:07that changes the shirt color. It's like,
1:22:09you know, you just took the same shot
1:22:10and just put me in a white, a yellow,
1:22:12and a blue t-shirt. Like that's not
1:22:14change. That's not three different
1:22:15thumbnails. So three differentiated
1:22:17thumbnails. To me, I I love YouTube
1:22:19testing natively. Some people don't
1:22:20enjoy it as much or, you know, have
1:22:22mixed experience with it. I use it with
1:22:24every client. That's all I can say. You
1:22:25know, we we work across a billion views
1:22:28a month and we use it with every client.
1:22:30So, I love native AB testing on YouTube.
1:22:32I'll upload those three thumbnails. I'll
1:22:34press publish and basically the minute
1:22:37before I press publish, I'm just making
1:22:39sure I'm really aligned on the expected
1:22:42view performance of the video. So, what
1:22:45I'll actually do, it's really
1:22:46interesting with our clients. We'll have
1:22:47like the video then we'll have the team
1:22:49members and everyone is predicting the
1:22:50views of the video in the first let's
1:22:52say well usually the first hour the
1:22:54first day and the first week and the
1:22:56reason I love to do that before I press
1:22:57upload is because if we have a video
1:23:00that we think should be the best video
1:23:03we've ever made. We think it should be
1:23:04like a one out of 10. How am I even
1:23:06getting to that point? Well, it's a bit
1:23:07of like, you know, feeling data. Has it
1:23:09worked in the past? Like if you have
1:23:10Elon on your podcast, you're going to be
1:23:12like this should be a one out of 10.
1:23:14Like surely this should be the best
1:23:15video we've ever made, right? So if you
1:23:18post that video and it comes out the
1:23:20gates and it's a 2 out of 10 and for
1:23:21people listening that means it's the
1:23:23second best video out of the last 10
1:23:24videos you posted in the YouTube ranking
1:23:25system, you should change the thumbnail.
1:23:27You should do it should be panic
1:23:29stations, right? It's like you know when
1:23:31Mr. Beast made Squid Game, like if he if
1:23:33he posted that video and it was a three
1:23:34out of 10, technically a three out of 10
1:23:35is above average, but it's not for the
1:23:37expectation of that video. And on the
1:23:39flip side, sometimes a creator has a
1:23:40video where they're like, "Yeah, I know
1:23:41this isn't going to work. like, I know
1:23:42it's not going to really work that well.
1:23:44It's a smaller topic. I still want to
1:23:45post it, though. I'm like, okay, great.
1:23:46Let's post it. They'll post it. It's an
1:23:488 out of 10. They're like, "Shit, what?
1:23:49What the [ __ ] Why isn't it working? We
1:23:50need to change something." I'm like,
1:23:52it's it's not just about where it ranks
1:23:54against your last videos. It's where it
1:23:55ranks against your expectation. So,
1:23:57before I press publish, I make sure that
1:23:59I am aligned and the team is aligned
1:24:00with like where do we expect this video
1:24:02to fall? Like, roughly, we get it wrong
1:24:03all the time. It's not it's not a
1:24:05perfect science, but it's like I think
1:24:06this is should be I remember posting
1:24:07this video and being like it probably
1:24:09should be a one out of 10. It could be a
1:24:12two out of 10 because we posted another
1:24:13video before that also did really well,
1:24:14but it should be a 1 out of 10. If it
1:24:16came out of the gates as a 4 out of 10,
1:24:17we should probably stop that AB test and
1:24:20just try a new one altogether. Like we
1:24:22should probably just make a dramatic
1:24:23change because if it's not working, you
1:24:25know, as quickly as as that, we could
1:24:27make that decision. So, a lot of it is
1:24:29about the expected outcome. But usually
1:24:30what I'll do is I'll set the expectation
1:24:32out outcome. I'll run the the thumbnail
1:24:35test. I'll let the thumbnail test pick a
1:24:36winner. I'll make sure that winner is
1:24:39selected as the main thumbnail. And if
1:24:41I'm not happy with performance, I might
1:24:43try some different titles as well. But
1:24:44generally, that's my approach to it.
1:24:46>> Wow. So, you don't go back to the title
1:24:48and test the test the title again once
1:24:49you've logged in the thumbnail.
1:24:50>> If it's underperforming expectation,
1:24:52that's the whole thing, right? because
1:24:53it's like it is a thing where I know we
1:24:54just talked about like how you can be a
1:24:56little bit of like a an engineer and try
1:24:57all these different things, but like if
1:24:59a video is performing well and above
1:25:02where we expect it to perform. It's kind
1:25:04of this thing of like, you know, if you
1:25:06have good data, good data is always
1:25:08better than no data, right? So, if you
1:25:10have good data, which is basically this
1:25:11tile is working, the video is doing
1:25:13better. This tile we have no data on
1:25:14because we haven't post published it
1:25:16yet.
1:25:16>> Don't want to shake the boat.
1:25:17>> Good data better than no data. On the
1:25:18flip side of that though, what's
1:25:19interesting is like sometimes like
1:25:22people will post a video and it will be
1:25:24doing bad. So now you have bad data and
1:25:26then you have no data on the one you
1:25:27haven't tried yet and they'll be like,
1:25:28"Oh, I just want to give it a bit more
1:25:29time." Like I and I'm just like, "Okay,
1:25:32well now we have bad data versus no
1:25:33data." No data is better than bad data
1:25:35cuz like the no data might be good. We
1:25:37don't know. It could also be bad, but we
1:25:38don't know. So in that situation, I will
1:25:40make the change. So I do generally
1:25:43suggest to move away from this sort of I
1:25:46think a few years ago people on YouTube
1:25:47in general were just like changing the
1:25:49title like 10 times in the first day
1:25:51changing the thumbnail so many times.
1:25:53It's like at that point like I don't
1:25:54even know what's causing the impact then
1:25:56like if I'm changing things that much
1:25:57like how do I know it was the title? How
1:25:59do I know it's not just like the the
1:26:00fact that like you know something else
1:26:03was happening in the background? Like
1:26:04there's so many external factors on
1:26:05YouTube like maybe I don't know right
1:26:07when you posted maybe another person
1:26:09posted a podcast that people are
1:26:10watching and now after they've watched
1:26:11that podcast they're getting you
1:26:12suggested next and that's all coming in
1:26:13but you've changed the title just before
1:26:14that and now you're like oh [ __ ] the
1:26:16title works but it's like is it or is it
1:26:18you know this other factor so I I
1:26:20generally steer away from changing too
1:26:21much like unless if the video is
1:26:23dramatically underperforming expectation
1:26:25I'll go to war a little bit and I'll
1:26:27I'll make some big changes. I think the
1:26:28the second layer to that is absolutely
1:26:30amazing advice to anybody out there on
1:26:32creator operator YouTube side. Uh the
1:26:35expectations is huge. I think it goes
1:26:36back to like you shouldn't probably do a
1:26:40concept or have a guess that you don't
1:26:41think could be at least a five out of
1:26:4310. Obviously there could be like
1:26:45external reasons why you do something,
1:26:47but like if you're going in thinking
1:26:48it's going to be eight or nine or 10 out
1:26:50of 10 on one of 10, probably shouldn't
1:26:53have that guest on to begin with.
1:26:54>> Yeah. Yeah. Or you should have a very
1:26:56good reason, right? It's like, think
1:26:58about this any like I just I just did a
1:27:00a tweet on my Twitter account and like I
1:27:02view my Twitter just the same as I view
1:27:04YouTube. I think these skills just
1:27:05translate across the board. Like I I
1:27:06view Twitter is like, okay, I average
1:27:08about 200,000 views per tweet on Twitter
1:27:12or X, I should say. Do I think this
1:27:14tweet's going to do better? Do I think
1:27:15it's going to do worse? I did a tweet
1:27:16last week which is promoting like my
1:27:18program. I know that's going to do
1:27:20worse, but I'm still going to post it
1:27:22because it's it's got a huge potential
1:27:23upside for me. But I'm not going to post
1:27:24a lot of them, right? I'm going to post
1:27:25that once every now and again and the
1:27:26other ones are going to make sure. So
1:27:28there there are sometimes situations
1:27:29where it does make sense to post videos
1:27:31that you don't think are going to get as
1:27:33many views. People have sometimes called
1:27:35me like the the view maximalist. Like I
1:27:37just think about view maximizing
1:27:38everything. View max, right? It's like
1:27:40views, views, views. They're like Patty
1:27:42just doesn't understand that there's
1:27:43like value to like smaller niche
1:27:44audiences. I'm like there is. There
1:27:46totally is. But sometimes the people
1:27:47that say that are the people that can't
1:27:49get the views. Just saying. Like it
1:27:51depends. Like if if you are in a if you
1:27:53are in a niche where like it makes sense
1:27:54to be more niche and smaller, like I get
1:27:56it. Like there is a value to like, you
1:27:58know, if if you're like a high netw
1:28:00worth accountant, I don't care if you're
1:28:02getting a million views in your videos.
1:28:03You just care about the 1,000 viewers
1:28:05who have a high ultra net worth, ultra
1:28:07high net worth. Like you care about the
1:28:08people who are buying yachts and boats
1:28:09or whatever. Like sure, then make videos
1:28:11that are reaching as many of those
1:28:12people as you can. Like, but for a lot
1:28:14of people, I think there is a value to
1:28:16just trying to trying to see how big the
1:28:18niche and TAM can be. I think
1:28:19regardless, playing the one of 10 game
1:28:21is important because it's it's really
1:28:23you versus you, not you versus the
1:28:24external. It's just knowing that you're
1:28:26incrementally doing better than you did
1:28:27from the past. Because if you're not
1:28:28going up and to the right, I think
1:28:29you're doing something wrong.
1:28:30>> Yep.
1:28:30>> So on the title side, principles,
1:28:34framers, what are the specific things
1:28:35that you're looking at in a title? Like
1:28:36what's that filter under the notion that
1:28:38you're not changing the title most of
1:28:39the time? Looks like you're obviously
1:28:40testing the thumbnail. So what do you
1:28:42look for in a title to make sure that it
1:28:44can go live?
1:28:45>> Yeah. So fewest words possible while
1:28:47still making it interesting. So
1:28:51a while ago I used to say keep it to
1:28:52under 50 characters cuz that's what I
1:28:54would typically do. I'm a little bit
1:28:55more lenient on that now. Like a lot of
1:28:57YouTube right now is watched on TV where
1:28:58you might have a bit more display room
1:29:00for titles. I think generally if your
1:29:02title is like 60 characters plus is a
1:29:05bit long. Sometimes I'll I'll like push
1:29:08people to keep it under 60 but there are
1:29:10still times I'll do that over. But
1:29:11that's why I come to that principle of
1:29:13like as few words as possible to make it
1:29:14interesting. Use universal language.
1:29:17This is actually a really interesting
1:29:18thing which is like depending on how
1:29:20global your audience is or how broad
1:29:21your audience is, everyone has a curse
1:29:23of knowledge bias. So everyone sort of
1:29:26assumes people know the things that they
1:29:27know. Right? So if I said the word D1
1:29:30athlete to you, you'd be like I don't
1:29:31know what that is. Right? Three years
1:29:33ago I did not know what that was. So if
1:29:35someone said D1 athlete, I'd be like
1:29:36what's that? I don't know what that is.
1:29:37I'm from Ireland. Like oh college
1:29:39athlete. Okay. I get that. So, if you're
1:29:40making a video and you have like, you
1:29:42know, more than half of your viewers
1:29:43outside the USA and you title a video
1:29:46that says, I don't know, D1 athlete
1:29:48tries viral like workout techniques for
1:29:51the first time. I'm here in Ireland. If
1:29:53I'm here in England or Europe or
1:29:56Australia, I might be like, "What's a D1
1:29:58athlete? That's weird. I don't know what
1:29:59that is." Pro athlete, I can understand.
1:30:02Right. Same with like, you know, I
1:30:04didn't know what Goodwill was. You know,
1:30:05like a Goodwill store. Yeah. Like, so
1:30:07there was a guy that made this video and
1:30:08he's like, I made this video and it was
1:30:10like, I went to Goodwill and like built
1:30:11this thing from Goodwill or something.
1:30:13And I was like, what the [ __ ] is a good
1:30:15what what's a Goodwill? And he's like,
1:30:16oh, it's a store. It's like this, you
1:30:17know, very famous store here in America.
1:30:19And I looked into the analytics for him
1:30:21and it was so interesting. The video had
1:30:23just had done just as well as Norman in
1:30:24the USA, but he had just missed all of
1:30:26his like Asian viewers, his European
1:30:29viewers, and all these things because
1:30:30everyone's like, "What is Goodwill? I
1:30:31don't know what that is." Like it wasn't
1:30:32it's not a thing, you know? So
1:30:34>> under that lens, it's just how do you
1:30:36not shrink your TAM? You want the
1:30:38biggest possible TAM.
1:30:39>> Yes. Yes. And of of course there's like
1:30:42there's limits to it where it's like,
1:30:43you know, sometimes for example like if
1:30:46you are let's just say a business
1:30:47channel, right? You know, if you're
1:30:49putting like ebida and like these terms
1:30:52in your title, you might be shrinking
1:30:53your time a little bit. If you want to
1:30:54reach those
1:30:55>> Oh boy, I hear you guys out there. Need
1:30:57more definitions up here.
1:30:58>> If if you want to if you want to reach
1:31:00those fears, it can work, right? But
1:31:02like I don't think let's just say Dire
1:31:04SEO like one of the biggest business
1:31:05podcasts in the world, right? If not the
1:31:07biggest. Don't really think he'd put
1:31:08Ebida in a title. I don't think so. Like
1:31:11he put profit, he put money, right? But
1:31:13like so it's about like your audience
1:31:15and who you're trying to reach. if you
1:31:16if you are trying to reach a more like
1:31:17qualified audience, it's fine to use
1:31:19like jargon and terminology like that.
1:31:21But like yeah, I I would say if I went
1:31:23down the street here in in LA and and
1:31:26interviewed 100 people and asked them
1:31:27what EBIT that was and define it, they'd
1:31:29be like maybe five people would know it
1:31:31out of 100, 5%. You know, so if you're
1:31:33if you're going for a broad audience,
1:31:35it's going to limit you. So for
1:31:36>> everybody out there listening, TAM is
1:31:37total addressable market. Just continue.
1:31:39Sorry.
1:31:39>> There you go. Yeah.
1:31:40>> So that's a big one. Use universal
1:31:42language. Your to should always
1:31:43complement the thumbnail. So, you need
1:31:45to think about your title and thumbnail
1:31:47together. That's why I say come up a
1:31:48title first and then look at the
1:31:50thumbnail and make sure they're
1:31:51complement each other. Generally, I
1:31:52don't like to repeat the information in
1:31:55the title that's in the thumbnail. So,
1:31:57let's just say that you titled this
1:31:58episode how anyone can go viral in 2026.
1:32:01I probably would suggest against putting
1:32:03that as also the thumbnail text because
1:32:04then it's just like repeating itself. is
1:32:06not complimenting itself like you know
1:32:07if I if I saw the title being how anyone
1:32:09can go viral in 2026 and then the
1:32:11thumbnail text said like this is the key
1:32:14or something it's not great but this is
1:32:15the key those are complnting each other
1:32:17you read that then you're like this is
1:32:18the key what's the key I need to click
1:32:20so complement the thumbnail that's a
1:32:21really important one
1:32:23readable at a glance that this is goes
1:32:26back to that original point of like
1:32:28people are reading your they're not even
1:32:29reading your title let's be honest
1:32:31they're just like scanning it they're
1:32:32like is that something is that something
1:32:33I want to watch scroll scroll scroll
1:32:35So, kind of going back to our point of
1:32:37like use as few words as possible. Use
1:32:40words that are very readable, like
1:32:42contemporary. Okay, that's a very long
1:32:44word. It doesn't look great in a title.
1:32:45Modern is probably a better word, right?
1:32:47Generally, I avoid titles that have like
1:32:49heavy like segmentation or truncation,
1:32:51like divided up into three titles. I've
1:32:53seen these people make titles where it's
1:32:54like three different titles all like
1:32:56meshed in together. I like my titles to
1:32:58be clean, simple, easy to read,
1:33:00generally shorter words. Generally, I
1:33:02like to use something that I call it's
1:33:04called title case formatting where I'll
1:33:05capitalize the first letter of each word
1:33:07unless it's like a connecting word like
1:33:08and or is or on just because it's more
1:33:11readable. If you use all caps, the
1:33:13interesting about all caps, I never even
1:33:14realized this before, but all caps makes
1:33:16every letter the same height and it
1:33:18makes it less readable. Like when you
1:33:19look at an all caps thing, if I just
1:33:21showed you like a piece of paper and
1:33:22it's all all caps and I give you like a
1:33:23second to read it, you're going to be
1:33:24able to remember less than if it was in
1:33:25title case. So, I'm always looking for
1:33:27things that can just make it so my
1:33:29viewer can just really quickly process
1:33:30what's on screen. If you look at any
1:33:32video with over 100 million views, I
1:33:34guarantee you you look at the title and
1:33:35you're like, "Oh, I can understand that
1:33:36right away." It's super readable, simple
1:33:38words, easy to understand. I do the same
1:33:40thing with my notes for the podcast,
1:33:41too. It's got to be quick and readable
1:33:43at glance. And it's actually why I bold
1:33:44certain words so I can do a quick glance
1:33:46down as opposed to, you know, having to
1:33:48spend 10 seconds reading something.
1:33:51>> 100%.
1:33:51>> Same thing, please. And then the final
1:33:53one and this is like the most important
1:33:55of all which is like
1:33:57I think sometimes people
1:34:00are trying to make YouTube this sort of
1:34:03check the box thing and look frameworks
1:34:05are really important like what we're
1:34:06doing here and like like I said it is
1:34:08kind of a it's an analyst's game so
1:34:10that's great but at the same time I'll
1:34:13tell you about I don't want to throw
1:34:14anyone under the bus here but my my my
1:34:16my
1:34:18biggest frustration are these ideas
1:34:20called like SEO optimizer tools. that
1:34:22just like people put their title in an
1:34:24SEO optimizer and it comes out with a
1:34:26title and they're like, "Okay, that's
1:34:27what I'm going to use." It's like,
1:34:28"Well, first of all, how much traffic on
1:34:30YouTube actually comes from search." For
1:34:31most channels, it's like 10%. If even,
1:34:34right? It's it's it's quite often less.
1:34:36It's one of my favorite things to tell
1:34:37people. It's like, how many views come
1:34:39from subscriber boxes? Less than 5%. How
1:34:41many views come from the channel page?
1:34:43About 3%. How many views come from
1:34:45search? For most channels, about 5 to
1:34:4710%. There are some channels that get
1:34:4850% plus from search, but that's rare.
1:34:50For most channels, it's about 5 to 10%.
1:34:52So why would you optimize your title for
1:34:54an SEO score that you know is going to
1:34:57make a rank rank rank in search? And the
1:34:59cost of that is making a title that's
1:35:00absolute garbage, right? iPhone. If you
1:35:03had a video where you're reviewing the
1:35:05new iPhone 16, right? Which is a better
1:35:06title? Like new 2026 iPhone 16 review uh
1:35:11unboxing tutorial or don't waste your
1:35:14money reviewing the new iPhone 16.
1:35:18Right? Both of those still have like the
1:35:20iPhone 16 keywords. So, they still can
1:35:21both rank in search. The first one
1:35:23technically has a better SEO score
1:35:25because it's jammed full of keywords,
1:35:26but no human I know would click that
1:35:28video versus the don't waste your money
1:35:29one cuz the don't waste your money one
1:35:30you're like that doesn't actually tell
1:35:32me the right thing. It's like is the
1:35:34phone a waste of money or like is it
1:35:36about picking the right version of the
1:35:37new iPhone or whatever? So, you're
1:35:38playing on human interest. And an
1:35:40example I like to give give on this is
1:35:42like you know a while ago people did say
1:35:45including me keep a keep a title to
1:35:48under 50 characters right but again
1:35:50that's sort of doing the same thing
1:35:51where you're trying to appease a sort of
1:35:52like system or like a an SEO score or
1:35:55like a title like optimizer score or
1:35:58something. What is the most interesting
1:36:00title for a human to click on? That's
1:36:01always a thing. So we can actually do
1:36:04like a kind of a live demo. Let's just
1:36:06say you have a video which is like
1:36:07called the best value Porsche GT3 on the
1:36:11market, right? That's your video. So,
1:36:13what's that title? Okay, the best value
1:36:15Porsche GT3 on the market. It's not
1:36:18great. It's not that interesting. Would
1:36:20you click that? Probably not. Even if
1:36:21you're a car guy, you're like,
1:36:22"Whatever." Okay, let's make it a little
1:36:24bit better. What if you said, "I found
1:36:26the best value Porsche GT3 on the
1:36:28market." Okay, now the I found creates a
1:36:30bit of a story. So, okay, there's a bit
1:36:32more in there, but still best value GT3
1:36:35on the market. That's quite generic,
1:36:36right? How about I found the cheapest
1:36:40911 GT3 on the market. Now you're adding
1:36:42a superlative. Now it becomes more
1:36:43interesting. You're like I found gives
1:36:45you a story. Cheapest superlative
1:36:47desirable thing 911 GT3. Okay. Cheapest
1:36:50GT3. But what if we made it longer while
1:36:52actually making it better? I found the
1:36:55cheapest 911 GT3 on the market, but
1:36:58nobody will buy it. Right. Dot dot dot.
1:37:01But nobody will buy it. Right. Adam.
1:37:03>> Okay. What does that do? It makes the
1:37:05title longer. So technically it gets a
1:37:06worse score if you're just looking at
1:37:08the, you know, purely at the the length
1:37:09of the title. But what does it actually
1:37:11do? It creates a human interest, which
1:37:13is like, wait, this thing is the
1:37:15cheapest. Superlative, unique, right?
1:37:17Okay, great. This thing is the cheapest
1:37:19thing. I want to see this thing, but
1:37:21nobody wants it. You can apply the
1:37:22inverse, right? I found the worst
1:37:26apartment in New York City and it's
1:37:29expensive, but everyone wants to move
1:37:30in. You'd be like, well, why does
1:37:32everyone want to move into the worst
1:37:33apartment, right? like or I found the
1:37:34cheapest apartment but nobody wants to
1:37:36move in. It's like creating this
1:37:38contradiction that's playing on a human
1:37:40interest. It's it's playing on a human
1:37:41emotion to be like why is that
1:37:43interesting? Like why why why would
1:37:45nobody want the cheapest 911 on the
1:37:46market? What's wrong with it? Does it
1:37:48have like some serious damage? Has it
1:37:50been flooded? Like suddenly all these
1:37:52these ideas come to your mind. Click go
1:37:54back to that original title and compare
1:37:56it. Like look at those two titles side
1:37:57by side. It's like it can be a different
1:37:58game.
1:37:58>> Yeah. I feel like the principles in
1:37:59frameworks bring you like zero to 80. to
1:38:01go from 80 to 100, you need curiosity,
1:38:04taste, analytics, have really, really
1:38:06good ideas because what you just did was
1:38:08was nuclear. So, it's it's completely
1:38:10different. Makes a lot of sense. And
1:38:12we're going to pop up kind of going
1:38:14through that whole entire sequence on it
1:38:15goes good, better, best for sure. So,
1:38:19you have these title principles, you
1:38:21upload it. What are you looking on one
1:38:23of 10 to see how it's performing? What
1:38:25are those like key metrics that you're
1:38:26looking at?
1:38:26>> So, I always say this thing, most
1:38:28important metric on YouTube is views.
1:38:30So, people are always like, you know,
1:38:31whenever I'm at an event, I'm actually
1:38:32going to VidCon this week, and you know,
1:38:34I already guarantee you someone's going
1:38:36to corner me in the hallway and be like,
1:38:37"Patty, what's the most important metric
1:38:39to look at in YouTube studio?" And
1:38:40they're like, "No, no, no, don't don't
1:38:41don't tell me. I'm going to guess. I'm
1:38:43going to guess. Is it a secure, right?
1:38:44Or is it a views per viewer?" I'm like,
1:38:46"It's views." Like, it's kind of like
1:38:49asking the question of like, "What's the
1:38:50most important metric in a business?"
1:38:52It's kind of revenue and profit, right?
1:38:54Like ultimately everything, lots of
1:38:55other things like your cost of
1:38:56acquisition, your lifetime ROI, all
1:38:57these things are really important,
1:38:59right? But like ultimately like that's
1:39:01probably the most important metric to be
1:39:03paying attention to. So views as a
1:39:05metric. I can you can blindfold me for
1:39:07metrics. Basically you can say Patty all
1:39:09you have to do to grow a channel is look
1:39:11at the views. Don't look at CTR. Don't
1:39:13look at AVD. Don't look at anything
1:39:14else. I could grow that channel. I don't
1:39:16need those other things. Like they're
1:39:17they're really not that important. And
1:39:20an example I like to give with uh so
1:39:21something like CTR, right? There's a big
1:39:23difference between saying AVD and CTOR
1:39:26don't matter versus saying AVD and CTR
1:39:29as a metric are very hard to focus on.
1:39:31So for people watching, CTR means
1:39:33click-through rate, the amount of people
1:39:34clicking a video. And AVD means average
1:39:37view duration, how long that person is
1:39:38viewing for. And we've all been trained
1:39:40that those are the most important things
1:39:41on YouTube, clicks and watches. True.
1:39:43But the interesting thing is the actual
1:39:45metric you're displayed in your YouTube
1:39:46studio, it's kind of misleading because
1:39:49let's use this example. Let's just say
1:39:51you have a lemonade stand. Let's say you
1:39:53put that lemonade stand in front of your
1:39:56house at home where you grew up. I grew
1:39:58up in the countryside in Ireland. Lovely
1:39:59little like, you know, countryside
1:40:01community, you know, lower middle class.
1:40:03People walking by. Everyone likes to
1:40:05support each other. So, I got my
1:40:06lemonade stand outside my house. My
1:40:08conversion rate is probably going to be
1:40:09really good because they're my
1:40:10neighbors. I know them. My family walk
1:40:12by. Maybe I'll have like a 20%
1:40:14conversion rate. If I put that same
1:40:15lemonade down in New York in Times
1:40:17Square, New York, my conversion rate is
1:40:20probably going to drop through the
1:40:21floor, but I'm getting more sales
1:40:23because there's more customers, right?
1:40:24So, CTO, like sometimes people are like,
1:40:26"Oh, clickthrough rate is so important.
1:40:27CTOR is so important." Like, oh, let me
1:40:30like I need to aim for 10% or I heard
1:40:32that Mr. Beast gets 15% CTR and oh,
1:40:34let's aim for that. It's like some of
1:40:36the biggest channels I've ever worked on
1:40:38have some of the lowest CTRs because
1:40:39they're operating in the biggest
1:40:40markets. So, CTR and same with AVD, you
1:40:43know, average duration. Well, okay. You
1:40:45want to get really high average view
1:40:46duration, make a 3-hour video. Like,
1:40:47does that mean it's better than a
1:40:4830-minute video? Not necessarily. So, I
1:40:51don't really like to pay too much
1:40:52attention to AVD and CTR. I look at
1:40:54views and I look at retention curves.
1:40:56The reason why views don't really lie.
1:40:58They're what you would call a
1:40:59comprehensive metric because everything
1:41:00goes into views, right? The click, the
1:41:02watch, the satisfaction, all that goes
1:41:04into the view count you see. [snorts]
1:41:06So,
1:41:06>> because it's feeding the algorithm.
1:41:07>> Yeah.
1:41:08>> Yeah.
1:41:08>> So, views don't lie for the most part.
1:41:10So, I'll look at views. And then the
1:41:12other thing I'll look at is retention
1:41:13curves. So the actual curve because that
1:41:15teaches me where people are dropping
1:41:17off, where I'm losing people. So I have
1:41:20been a little bit of a psycho when it
1:41:21comes to retention curves, but I have
1:41:23studied like thousands if not tens of
1:41:25thousands of retention curves across
1:41:27multiple niches and you start to see the
1:41:29patterns of like what causes people to
1:41:31leave? What causes people to drop off?
1:41:33When you say this, you know, 5% people
1:41:35leave or 2% people leave. Why is that?
1:41:37So when I was talking to bigger beginner
1:41:39creators, even even like bigger
1:41:40creators, I'm like, look at your views
1:41:42and look at your retention curves.
1:41:43Understand which video is working
1:41:44better. Focus on those. Understand the
1:41:46patterns of your your viewership as
1:41:48well. Like you know, if you change a
1:41:49title thumbnail, like I don't really
1:41:50care about the CTR. I care about to
1:41:52delete to more views, right? It's like
1:41:53if I created a different sign for my
1:41:55lemonade stand, if everything else was a
1:41:57control, if it was in Times Square New
1:41:58York and it was held as a control, okay,
1:42:00then I can make measure the conversion
1:42:01rate change. But if I change the sign,
1:42:03but then some of the time I'm in outside
1:42:05my front door at my house and some of
1:42:07the time I'm in Time Square, New York,
1:42:08it's hard to like measure whether it's a
1:42:10sign or whether it's something else.
1:42:11Views is pretty consistent. So views and
1:42:14retention curve. And retention the
1:42:15interesting thing about retention curve
1:42:16is, you know, you could have a retention
1:42:19curve on a video that has a million
1:42:21views and then that video could get 10
1:42:22million more views. The retention curve
1:42:24will be lower because as you go to a
1:42:26broader audience, generally engagement
1:42:28drops and people are less engaged in the
1:42:30video. So,
1:42:30>> because they're finding net new
1:42:32audiences that are less likely to click
1:42:34your video. They're just trying to grow
1:42:34it as much as possible.
1:42:35>> Exactly. Exactly. So, they're less
1:42:37likely to watch your video, but that
1:42:38doesn't mean that the video is less
1:42:40interesting. It's just like, you know,
1:42:41naturally like, you know, the same same
1:42:43way that like if you listen to a band
1:42:45you've never heard before, you're less
1:42:46likely to listen for as long as like
1:42:47your favorite artist, right? It's like
1:42:48the same thing, right? So, what happens
1:42:50though that's interesting is let's say
1:42:51the retention curve will drop. We can
1:42:53actually show I could send you a really
1:42:54cool visual which summarizes this. the
1:42:56retention curve could drop quite
1:42:58considerably down after 10 million
1:43:00views, but the behaviors are still
1:43:01pretty similar. So if if you know core
1:43:04viewers left at this moment, new viewers
1:43:06are probably still going to leave at
1:43:07that same moment or at a similar moment.
1:43:09Like the the actual behavior stays
1:43:10pretty consistent between audiences like
1:43:12universally people might find this thing
1:43:14funny or not that funny. Or if I say in
1:43:16a video at the end of the day, whether
1:43:18you're a new viewer, a core viewer, a
1:43:20casual viewer, most people determine
1:43:21that as ending language, as conclusion
1:43:23language at the end of the day. So if I
1:43:25just said there like look at the end of
1:43:28the day this was a great podcast cut
1:43:29this out if I said that like people are
1:43:32going to be subconsciously listening on
1:43:34their you know iPhones iPads on their
1:43:36TVs and be like oh it's finishing now go
1:43:38right so universally that leads to drops
1:43:42guys it's Mark quick break is one of the
1:43:44sharpest minds on YouTube strategy today
1:43:46and he has given us so much free game in
1:43:49this episode so I put together a
1:43:50playbook that distills all of his
1:43:51systems and frameworks into one free PDF
1:43:55link below down in the description.
1:43:56Enjoy the rest of the episode. So,
1:43:59prepackaging idea, title, thumbnail.
1:44:02Taking a look back from a macro
1:44:03perspective, the two big things are
1:44:05views and retention. Let's go deep into
1:44:07retention. Now, I feel like we should
1:44:08start with the intro because again, good
1:44:11title, good thumbnail, people click, and
1:44:14then the beginning. I mean, this is I
1:44:17don't even want to show it. Maybe we'll
1:44:18pop it up just so we can laugh at me.
1:44:19Like, our first couple episodes, the
1:44:21intro was slow. I'm talking about
1:44:24myself. It has no context. Absolutely
1:44:26terrible and it's a it's a micrometric,
1:44:28but the average view duration was very
1:44:30very low. So, I'd love to hear from you
1:44:32like what are those kind of rules on the
1:44:34intro to get people to stay along and
1:44:36buy yourself a chance to kind of feed
1:44:38the algorithm?
1:44:39>> 100%. So, interestingly, I mentioned
1:44:42earlier my parents are both writers and
1:44:44I think I have probably ghost written
1:44:4810,000 intros
1:44:50in my career for my own channels for
1:44:53other channels. And still today, like I
1:44:54have a whole team. I'm technically the
1:44:56CEO. I'm supposed to be just signing
1:44:57business and, you know, leading the
1:44:58company. I still ghost write intros for
1:45:01our clients all the time. Let it go,
1:45:02baby.
1:45:02>> I just love it. It's It's like my
1:45:04favorite thing. And I just love like how
1:45:06you get this like the thing I didn't
1:45:07like about writing is I I always love
1:45:09writing stories and essays and you know
1:45:11I wanted to be a journalist at some
1:45:12point. Very hard to get your kind of
1:45:14like you know feedback immediately on is
1:45:16this good or not? Like whereas with
1:45:18intros I can be like okay I tried this
1:45:20intro people didn't like it they left
1:45:22you know I can see exactly where they
1:45:23left in the retention curve. So I love
1:45:25writing intros. My formula it's going to
1:45:27be different to other people's formulas.
1:45:28The thing about intros is ultimately all
1:45:30that matters is can you hold people on
1:45:32the video. There's some principles that
1:45:34are just general. So like one principle
1:45:35that general to me is like generally it
1:45:37shouldn't be that long. An intro
1:45:39probably should be under 45 seconds. You
1:45:41know, sometimes you can go a bit longer,
1:45:42but like most of the best performing
1:45:44intros on YouTube, they're under 45
1:45:46seconds, right? They use simple
1:45:48language. They focus on intrigue and
1:45:51like getting people like bought into the
1:45:53video and leading with proof points and
1:45:54these different things. But the actual
1:45:56format I use is three steps. Number one,
1:46:00deliver on the promise. So, I love this
1:46:03idea of thinking of your title thumbnail
1:46:04as a promise. That's what it is, right?
1:46:06You're basically telling people, I
1:46:08promise you, I'm going to give you this,
1:46:09right? What is so obviously a mistake
1:46:12people make is they make a big promise
1:46:14with the title out and then in the first
1:46:1610 seconds of their intro, they do not
1:46:18reaffirm that. They do not like deliver
1:46:20on it at all. So, if you make a promise
1:46:23that you're going to see the world's
1:46:24fastest camera drone versus an F1 car
1:46:26and you start the video and you don't
1:46:28see a drone or an F1 car, you're like,
1:46:31I'm gone. And genuinely, I have seen
1:46:34videos on YouTube where in the first 10%
1:46:37or first 10 seconds of a video, 60% 70%
1:46:41of viewers have left. And it's like 10
1:46:43seconds, not like a minute in, 10
1:46:45seconds, you have now you only have 30
1:46:46or 40% of viewers left after the first
1:46:4810 seconds. And it nearly always is
1:46:50because you click the video and you're
1:46:52just not getting what you came for. And
1:46:53I'm sure people watching this can can
1:46:54relate to this and experience how
1:46:56frustrating it is when you click on a
1:46:57video and you're like, I came for this
1:46:58and it just feels like I've been baited
1:46:59into something completely different and
1:47:01it doesn't make any sense. So delivering
1:47:04on the promise, you can do that visually
1:47:05or verbally, you know, like you could
1:47:07visually show an F1 car and a drone or
1:47:10you could verbally say that that's
1:47:12coming. I think the visual is a lot
1:47:13stronger in this example. Let's say for
1:47:15our episode, you might make a certain
1:47:16claim in the title about like what this
1:47:18episode's titled around. Just want to
1:47:20make sure those first 10 seconds I'm
1:47:21saying something to that effect or
1:47:22saying something similar or you're
1:47:23saying something similar to that effect.
1:47:25So deliver on the promise is number one
1:47:27for me. Make sure they make they made
1:47:29the right decision. I want to kind of
1:47:30say like I've got someone with the
1:47:31click. I want to grab them and be like
1:47:32you made the right choice. Trust me.
1:47:34Trust me. Look at this. You made the
1:47:35right choice. That's my first step.
1:47:38Number two is create intrigue. Very
1:47:41basic, very generic. But your intro is
1:47:43not just about statements. And this is a
1:47:46big mistake people make is they they
1:47:47sometimes be they're they're sometimes
1:47:48too statement focused. So they kind of
1:47:50go like, you know, they'll just be like,
1:47:52in this video we're going to cover this,
1:47:54this, this, and this. Okay, let's go. I
1:47:56was like, okay, you know, I guess it's
1:47:58pragmatic, but it's not creating much
1:48:00interest. I want to hear things like,
1:48:02you know, in this video we're going to
1:48:03cover this and how it leads to this, and
1:48:05we're even going to break down the, you
1:48:07know, I want to hear that kind of
1:48:08interestbased language. So, I'm always
1:48:10looking for like what what are the
1:48:11little hooks, curiosity gaps. I like to
1:48:13think of my intro as just opening up all
1:48:15these little hooks in the viewer's mind
1:48:17where they're like, I have to keep
1:48:19watching to hear these things answered
1:48:20throughout the video. So, that to me is
1:48:22the second most important thing. And on
1:48:25that point as well, I like to do that in
1:48:27the least amount of context as possible.
1:48:29So, big problem people do is they
1:48:32overexlain in their intros. They put too
1:48:33much in. This is probably what you did
1:48:34at the start, right? You put too much
1:48:36information. You thought you had to
1:48:36introduce the guest too much. you to
1:48:38like build all this stuff up and it's
1:48:39like try to explain that in the in the
1:48:42least amount of time as possible. So
1:48:43like only necessary context in that
1:48:46section. So create interest with the
1:48:47least amount of words possible
1:48:48basically. And I always like to use this
1:48:50example of like if you do look at like I
1:48:52know we're using him quite a lot in this
1:48:53episode. If you look at like a genius
1:48:54like Mr. Beast in his videos technically
1:48:56there's so much happening in his videos.
1:48:58What if you gave that to an amateur or
1:49:00just like a let's say a good YouTuber,
1:49:02they would feel the need to explain
1:49:03everything that's happening like, "Oh,
1:49:05there's this FBI agent. He used to work
1:49:06for the FBI for 20 years. His name is
1:49:08John and he's going to be chasing me for
1:49:1124 hours, and if he can capture me, he
1:49:12gets to keep this bag of money. If he
1:49:14doesn't," and you know, all this
1:49:15explanation, that's what most people do.
1:49:16He's just like, "This is an FBI agent.
1:49:18He's got 24 hours to catch me, go." You
1:49:20know, like it's it's like you don't need
1:49:23to say his name now. You can drip feed
1:49:25context. You can put context in later.
1:49:27This idea drip feeding context I think
1:49:28is really interesting which is like you
1:49:30know what's the most necessary context
1:49:32to make someone understand the video and
1:49:34create intrigue for them and then the
1:49:37rest of the context I mean you can put
1:49:38that later like you know people maybe
1:49:40didn't know need to know in this intro
1:49:41that I worked for exactly this person or
1:49:43that I own this company or that my dog
1:49:45went viral but we can we can you know
1:49:46drip that in as we go. And then my third
1:49:49step of a a great intro is seamless
1:49:52flow. So, I I said this thing a while
1:49:54ago, which is like the best intro
1:49:56doesn't feel like an intro. It just
1:49:58feels like the video started. So, yes,
1:50:00like, you know, an intro reel or like a
1:50:03a sort of highlights of of the
1:50:05conversation or clips if it's a podcast,
1:50:07that can be great. That can work really
1:50:08well, but it should feel like it just
1:50:10seamlessly flows into the start of the
1:50:11story line, right? If I sort of say to
1:50:13you like, "We're going to do this thing.
1:50:14It's going to be great. Um, anyway, uh,
1:50:17let's get into it. Okay, we're into the
1:50:19thing." Right? That's a very like choppy
1:50:22start to the video. Like it doesn't flow
1:50:24very well. If I said and said, "We're
1:50:26going to do this thing. It's going to be
1:50:27great and we're going to start with this
1:50:30and then the video starts, right? And
1:50:32we're going to start." That's the
1:50:33connecting sentence that makes it flow.
1:50:35So, I always look for those seamless
1:50:37flows. And if you look at the great
1:50:38intros on YouTube, you're almost like
1:50:39watching the intro and then it's like,
1:50:40"Oh [ __ ] the video started." And it's
1:50:42great. So, that's that's my formula.
1:50:44>> Yeah. I think what's underrated and I
1:50:46actually do this before I do the actual
1:50:48intro is that first bridging sentence.
1:50:52So I'll do the social proofing. It'll be
1:50:53two, three sentences. I'll say, you
1:50:55know, the 50 billion views, the Eagles,
1:50:56Red Bulls, Mr. Beast, etc. But then
1:50:58what's that first sentence because
1:50:59that's where I know like the meat of the
1:51:01conversation is going to go and then I
1:51:02actually do that after the fact. What's
1:51:04your thoughts on the trailer that we
1:51:05have first? So we have like a 45se
1:51:06second highlight sizzle trailer and then
1:51:08like a 105 second intro and then the
1:51:10first question. What's your thoughts on
1:51:11that? Dice us up. This may or may not
1:51:13make it. Dice this up, baby.
1:51:15>> That trailer takes a long time.
1:51:16>> Yeah. So, I hate the word trailer. So, I
1:51:20I know that technically is what it is,
1:51:21but like that
1:51:21>> it's a [ __ ] movie. That's what it is.
1:51:23>> Yeah.
1:51:23>> That that gives me because like I think
1:51:25a lot of people for a lot of people
1:51:27that's a terrible idea.
1:51:28>> Yeah.
1:51:28>> I think for you it can work because the
1:51:30production level is insane. And I think
1:51:32half like the unique selling point here
1:51:34is you get great people. You know, I'm
1:51:36not I'm just going to blow smoke up your
1:51:38ass for a second, but like I've never
1:51:39gone on a podcast that's prepared me as
1:51:40much for it and like gone through as
1:51:41much stuff. So like you you have all
1:51:43this like amazing value. You've got
1:51:45beautiful visuals. You've got all this
1:51:46sort of stuff. So I think like that in a
1:51:48way is delivering on the promise and
1:51:49it's like showcasing what's great about
1:51:52the conversation and it's not like your
1:51:53intro real is like I don't know like
1:51:56today we sat down with Patty Galloway
1:51:58but you know that to me is like get rid
1:51:59of that right but if it's like an actual
1:52:01sizzler where it's like good
1:52:02conversations that's more the diary of a
1:52:04CEO approach. I can't critique it. The
1:52:06biggest podcast in the world does that.
1:52:08Like Diary of a CEO does that. On the
1:52:09flip side, you know, a podcast like
1:52:11Modern Wisdom, Chris Williamson, who's
1:52:13also one of the biggest podcasts in the
1:52:14world, he'll quite often just start his
1:52:16podcast with just a question just like,
1:52:18"So, what do you think about this?" And
1:52:20it just starts, right? So, I think
1:52:21you've got competing like different ends
1:52:23of the spectrum of different ways to
1:52:24start things. I think for now, I think
1:52:25the trailer makes sense for you. As you
1:52:26grow, you might actually transition to
1:52:28something a bit shorter. Ironically, uh,
1:52:30we live kind of somewhere in between the
1:52:31Darco and Chris Williamson where I
1:52:33completely agree like while all these
1:52:34principles and frameworks out there,
1:52:35everybody listening, you have to take it
1:52:37with a grain of salt and like use common
1:52:38sense. That's how we look at it is we
1:52:40think like one of our modes is obviously
1:52:42the production value. So, we have the
1:52:43trailer, but at the same time, I want to
1:52:45respect the audience's time and then
1:52:46like we get into it right away. We don't
1:52:48like schmuck around in the beginning. We
1:52:49were right into it, I don't know, in
1:52:50like 30 seconds. So, you got to really
1:52:52just find what works for you. And as far
1:52:55as like the algorithm goes, is there
1:52:57anything else that people need to know
1:52:59outside of like when you upload a video,
1:53:01obviously the first hour is very
1:53:03important when you want to retain
1:53:04people. Is there anything else that
1:53:06people should know from a retention
1:53:07perspective on like timing?
1:53:09>> So the interesting thing about retention
1:53:12to me is like the videos that hold
1:53:15people for a long time and leave them
1:53:16really satisfied are usually the videos
1:53:18that become the most evergreen. So that
1:53:20I think the biggest when I look at the
1:53:21different algorithms and then I look at
1:53:23YouTube I think YouTube's biggest
1:53:24strength is the fact it's an evergreen
1:53:26algorithm. Like you if I go into my
1:53:29YouTube feed right now and I pull it up
1:53:30I guarantee you I see a video from 6
1:53:32months ago from 2 years ago from 3 days
1:53:33ago from 2 hours ago from 8 years ago.
1:53:36Like it is this kind of just platform of
1:53:39distribution. And it's kind of funny
1:53:40like people go like oh YouTube are
1:53:41prioritizing new videos or are they
1:53:42prioritizing old videos? All these
1:53:44things. It's like they're prioritizing
1:53:45whatever the [ __ ] people will click on.
1:53:47Like if they're going to click on a
1:53:48video from eight years ago, they're
1:53:49going to show videos from eight years
1:53:50ago. I always like this idea, which is
1:53:52funny, which is like if everyone
1:53:53tomorrow only clicked videos that were 6
1:53:56hours long. Let's say the whole world,
1:53:58we only clicked videos that were 6 hours
1:54:00long and were like a black screen and
1:54:02just said video one at the top. That's
1:54:05all that would be displayed on YouTube.
1:54:06Like they are reflecting human behavior.
1:54:08Like the algorithm, I know people like
1:54:10to think it's like cur like YouTube
1:54:12putting their finger on the scale and
1:54:13curating a certain thing. Look, we can
1:54:15get into we won't get into like that
1:54:17sort of stuff, but like there is some
1:54:19things that they create. They're like,
1:54:20"Okay, we don't want this kind of
1:54:22content or we don't want like really
1:54:23violent content or whatever." But after
1:54:25that, it's the wild west. It's like
1:54:26whatever gets the most clicks and
1:54:28watches and satisfies people will be at
1:54:30the top of the platform. Great example
1:54:32of this would be like, I'm kind of going
1:54:34on a tangent, but this is fun. Great
1:54:35example of this would be TV, right? So
1:54:38TV has become this really powerful
1:54:40device type for YouTube. It's crazy. I
1:54:42can actually send you a graph about this
1:54:44which is wild but like even five or 6
1:54:46years ago only about 20% 15 20% of our
1:54:50clients traffic was from TV. That number
1:54:53today is like 50 60%. like in just five
1:54:55years. So, we're playing in this
1:54:56completely different game, right? And
1:54:58what's interesting is like I heard
1:54:59someone a really smart person I respect
1:55:01say like, "Oh, YouTube are prioritizing
1:55:03longer videos cuz they do better on TV,
1:55:06right?" Which I guess technically is not
1:55:08incorrect, but the way I think the way
1:55:10the reason I bring this up as a point is
1:55:11really important is because everyone
1:55:13goes like, "Oh, yeah, like YouTube are
1:55:15just trying to make people watch longer
1:55:16like all this sort of stuff. They're
1:55:17prioritizing longer videos." Like longer
1:55:19videos do better on TV because YouTube
1:55:20are trying to make them do better on TV.
1:55:21It's like, do you know why longer videos
1:55:23are doing better on TV? Cuz people want
1:55:25to watch longer videos on TV. If you're
1:55:27sitting down and you're like, I'm going
1:55:28to pick a video and you see a 4-minute
1:55:31video. I don't know if anyone relates to
1:55:32this. Like, but like if I see a 4-minute
1:55:34video, I'm like, I don't want to watch
1:55:35that on my TV. I have to put it on and
1:55:36then it's going to be finished right
1:55:37away. It's like, I want to watch a
1:55:3930-minute video on my TV, right? So,
1:55:42it's not a case of YouTube prioritizing
1:55:43longer videos. It's a case of the
1:55:45audience telling YouTube, look, we
1:55:46prefer longer videos on TV. So, what
1:55:48gets promoted on on TV? Longer videos.
1:55:50If you open up your TV right now, you'll
1:55:51see longer videos than if you open up
1:55:52your mobile. So the device type itself
1:55:55informs and you know the YouTube
1:55:56algorithm is just so vast, but it can
1:55:59just be described with this simple fact
1:56:00which is for the most part it is always
1:56:04right behind the audience. Whatever way
1:56:05the audience is going, if everyone
1:56:07tomorrow decided we're going to watch
1:56:08sixinute videos with no audio, that's
1:56:10what will get promoted. That is so
1:56:11mind-blowing because on my TV I've never
1:56:14ever watched shorts and I'm thinking
1:56:16right now it's all long form because
1:56:18that's the intent with that medium. And
1:56:21kind of riffing off what you just said,
1:56:22I definitely think that the only thing
1:56:25that's kind of part of the algo is, you
1:56:27know, you always hear that like they're
1:56:28giving small creators like a chance.
1:56:30Maybe they are, maybe they do do that,
1:56:32but then it ultimately comes down to
1:56:34okay, we'll give you the chance that
1:56:35small pool, but if you don't get the
1:56:36clicks and the watches, then you're dead
1:56:38to them. Yeah.
1:56:38>> So, it's really just comes down to
1:56:40clicks and views. That's what it always
1:56:42comes down to.
1:56:43>> And it's it's just a beautiful game
1:56:44where it's like it is it is almost like
1:56:47pure meritocracy. It's like if you are a
1:56:50small creator and you make a better
1:56:52video than me and my clients, you will
1:56:54get more views. The difficulty would be
1:56:56like, well, at the highest level, people
1:56:58on YouTube right now have these big
1:56:59budgets, these big teams. They have, you
1:57:01know, people like, you know, even hiring
1:57:03us is not cheap, right? Like, and they
1:57:04have, you know, all these things that
1:57:05they have behind them. But if you can
1:57:08make a better video than us, you will
1:57:10get more views than us. And the good
1:57:12thing about being earlier in the stage
1:57:14as well is just like in business, right?
1:57:16Why? Look, Google, Microsoft, you know,
1:57:18the fang, all these huge companies.
1:57:20Technically, they're the biggest
1:57:21companies in the world. They're all
1:57:22trillion dollar market caps. Still,
1:57:24every year there's startups getting
1:57:25acquired. There's huge startups being
1:57:26built, you know, that come out of
1:57:27nowhere. And it's because when you get
1:57:29big, it becomes harder to experiment and
1:57:30move. So smaller creators or or people
1:57:32starting out have the advantage of
1:57:34flexibility and having an audience that
1:57:35they can't disappoint, you know, or or
1:57:37they Yeah. Like they having an audience
1:57:39that they don't really have to risk at
1:57:41that point. So there is this like fun
1:57:43thing where like as a small creator,
1:57:45yes, you're competing with big creators
1:57:47on on a lot of fronts. Also, we can get
1:57:49into this, but I feel like a lot of the
1:57:50fronts that typically were gatekeepers
1:57:52are dissolving with AI. It's like, oh,
1:57:54like, oh, the big creators have all
1:57:55these editors and graphics that I can't
1:57:57have. AI's coming in and helping you
1:57:59with that, right? Right? So, as a small
1:58:00creator, like you're able to be more
1:58:01flexible and agile and and it is just a
1:58:04pure competition. If you can make a
1:58:05better video than me, you'll get more
1:58:06views than me.
1:58:07>> This goes back to the most important
1:58:08skill to have in 2026 to be able to go
1:58:11viral because ultimately Yago doesn't
1:58:14lie. It's going to feed the views. We
1:58:15could spend all day going on these kind
1:58:17of storytelling structures. That's the
1:58:19next thing that I want to really jump
1:58:20into. We're just going to put a bunch of
1:58:21them below in a PDF, guys, because I
1:58:23want to keep going here. I think the big
1:58:24thing to understand on the storytelling
1:58:27is just a good storytelling structure is
1:58:30is basically useless without stakes. So
1:58:33I'd love for you to just kind of walk
1:58:34through how people should be filtering
1:58:36in their brain incorporating stakes into
1:58:39their whole entire kind of a toz
1:58:40playbook and making the videos.
1:58:42>> Yeah, such a good question. I think the
1:58:45thing is like yeah, you're right. You
1:58:46could have a great you could follow all
1:58:48the rules. You could have a great
1:58:49structure, great storytelling format,
1:58:51all these things. If people don't care
1:58:54enough to be invested in the video, like
1:58:56they're just not going to watch it. It
1:58:57just doesn't matter. So, like, if I
1:58:59said, let's just like use like a live
1:59:00demo of this. Like, if I let's just say
1:59:02I crunch up this paper into like a I'm
1:59:04actually going to do this with this.
1:59:05>> Yeah.
1:59:06If I crunch this up into a ball and like
1:59:08let's just say there's a bin. There's a
1:59:10trash can off camera and I just go, I'm
1:59:13gonna throw this into the trash can. So,
1:59:15you're probably like, "Okay, cool." If I
1:59:18said, "I'm gonna throw this into the
1:59:20trash can." And your camera guy off
1:59:22camera here. He said there's no way I
1:59:24can do it. He thinks there's no shot I
1:59:26can do this.
1:59:27>> I'll go next.
1:59:27>> You're a bit more invested, right?
1:59:29>> And then if you throw in the trash can
1:59:31and get it in,
1:59:32>> I'm going to give Tiger a million
1:59:33dollars.
1:59:34>> I better [ __ ] get it in.
1:59:36>> And you could just keep going more and
1:59:38more and more.
1:59:38>> Yeah.
1:59:39>> Maybe I'll give Tiger a million dollars
1:59:40and punch Jake in the face.
1:59:42>> If you get it in and then everybody's
1:59:44just, is he going to get it in? Is he
1:59:45not going to get it in? Are you going to
1:59:47give him the money? Are you gonna show
1:59:48us punching Jake in the face?
1:59:50>> 100% stakes. Yeah. Right. And it's like
1:59:53over overly like almost like facitious
1:59:56level stakes there, but like that is
1:59:58that is human interest, right? It's like
2:00:00>> people
2:00:01>> don't care unless you make them care and
2:00:03like you know that could be it could be
2:00:05an enemy to overcome. The first one I
2:00:06used was an enemy, right? Like he
2:00:08doesn't think I can do it, right? Like
2:00:09that's like such a classic human
2:00:11psychology thing. Like you're like I'm
2:00:13about to run a marathon, you know? Okay,
2:00:15I'm about to run a marathon and my
2:00:17ex-husband divorced me because he said I
2:00:19couldn't get fit. I'm way more invested
2:00:21in now. You know, it's like that's where
2:00:23you create that that feeling and that
2:00:25stake. So, it could be a time limit. It
2:00:26could be like a reward. It could be a
2:00:28punishment. It could even just be like
2:00:30the kind of FOMO of missing out. Like,
2:00:32you know, earlier in this episode, we
2:00:33gave an example of like buying the new
2:00:35iPhone, don't buy the wrong one or like
2:00:37don't waste your money. Like, that feels
2:00:38like a stake. It's like I don't want to
2:00:39waste my money on the wrong iPhone.
2:00:41Like, you've got to like you can't just
2:00:42be pure pragmatic. You've got to think
2:00:44like why does someone care about this
2:00:46thing?
2:00:46>> And can anybody hypothetically
2:00:48manufacture stakes in videos?
2:00:52>> Yes, you just got to you got to
2:00:54understand when stakes matter, right?
2:00:56Like if I am making you a video saying
2:00:59here's how to let's just say the video
2:01:01I'm making is how to optimize your
2:01:04investment portfolio, right? And I'm
2:01:06like, okay, so today I'm going to make
2:01:08make a video where I break down the the
2:01:10most bulletproof investment portfolio.
2:01:12It's really important you pay attention
2:01:13because if you don't listen to this, I
2:01:16have someone in another room who's going
2:01:18to break down the door and put slime
2:01:20over my head. So, you got to keep
2:01:22watching. You know, if I if I can't
2:01:23explain this to you in 10 minutes, I'm
2:01:25going to get slimed.
2:01:26I mean, that's just bizarre. It's like,
2:01:28I came to you for information. I don't
2:01:30care about you getting slimed. Who are
2:01:31you? That's weird. What the hell? Like,
2:01:33what's going on here? If you said
2:01:35instead, I'm going to break down the
2:01:36most bulletproof investment portfolio
2:01:38for you. And this is so important to get
2:01:40right because the difference between
2:01:42this portfolio and the one that the
2:01:44average person picks is over $3 million
2:01:47in retirement. It's like well that's a
2:01:48stake because it feels like a cost if I
2:01:50don't understand the information. So
2:01:51it's about like understanding what's the
2:01:53right stake for the video, right? Like
2:01:55it's not always like a goofy actionbased
2:01:57stake. It can also be just like a what's
2:01:59the cost of not paying attention.
2:02:01>> Guys, we're going to pop down below.
2:02:02This PDF is going to be jam-packed with
2:02:04principles, frameworks, examples, all
2:02:06the different ways to create stakes. We
2:02:07talked about a couple. We're going to
2:02:08put all of them down below. I want to
2:02:10open up and talk more about just, you
2:02:13know, you've been in this I mean, when
2:02:15have you been in this space since you
2:02:16were 10 years old?
2:02:17>> Yeah, I turned 30 this year.
2:02:19>> Okay. So, Patty's been in the space for
2:02:2120 years. He's 30 years old. He has been
2:02:22in the space for 66% of his life at only
2:02:2430 years old. I want to just We have a
2:02:27lot of operators listening right here.
2:02:28So, I kind of want to get into how
2:02:30should brands look at YouTube? What does
2:02:31the future of YouTube look like? So, I
2:02:33guess let's just first start with like
2:02:34what is the biggest mistake that you
2:02:36think that operators are doing when
2:02:38they're entering YouTube?
2:02:40>> I would say having a YouTube channel to
2:02:42begin with.
2:02:44So, here's my my sort of like scorched
2:02:47earth take on it, which is like don't
2:02:49have a [ __ ] YouTube channel unless
2:02:50you're willing to put in the time and
2:02:51effort to grow it. And as an operator,
2:02:54like you're probably very busy on a lot
2:02:57of things. So, you've got to really
2:02:58understand if this is like the thing for
2:03:00you. And it's it's like you know what's
2:03:02going to drive business for you. I am
2:03:04very bullish on company channels and
2:03:06brand channels. But I think the worst
2:03:07thing is when it's halfass and you like
2:03:10you know when I go on my my rants you
2:03:12know when I have a few drinks with me
2:03:13and I start ranting I'll start pointing
2:03:15out like these brand channels and I'm
2:03:16like what is the point of that? Like you
2:03:18know you there's this huge brand that's
2:03:20worth half a billion half a trillion
2:03:22dollars and they're just posting like
2:03:24corporate training video weird stuff on
2:03:26their YouTube channel and it's just
2:03:27garbage. I'll call out OpenAI. Cool
2:03:30company, right? Awesome company. I
2:03:32looked at their YouTube channel the
2:03:32other day. I'm like this is what's the
2:03:34point of this? Like it's just sort of
2:03:35hosting ads. It's just a dumping ground
2:03:37of like random things and that's a cool
2:03:39new company with like fresh smart people
2:03:41all over it. And like I in their case, I
2:03:43think it's almost better for them just
2:03:44to have like a an ad account and not
2:03:46even have a YouTube channel if they're
2:03:48going to do that. So I think it's like
2:03:50my my sort of score take is you probably
2:03:52shouldn't have a channel unless you're
2:03:53willing to put in the effort to do it.
2:03:55And then I think for the most part it's
2:03:57like you either need to like get really
2:04:00good at the skill which I think is super
2:04:02valuable. Like if if you're as a
2:04:03founder, as an operator, if you're able
2:04:05to figure out the skill of like what
2:04:07sells attention, what gains attention,
2:04:10as we've said, I think it's one of the
2:04:11most valuable skills in the world. But
2:04:13the other thing which I see a lot of
2:04:14people do, a lot of entrepreneurs do is
2:04:16just find the strategist. Find the
2:04:19person that can come in and be kind of
2:04:21like the creative director for your
2:04:22YouTube channel, for your brand. You
2:04:24know, a lot of these big business
2:04:26creators right now, you see them in
2:04:28front of the camera, but there's someone
2:04:29behind them. There's like a 22-year-old
2:04:31that's there and just lives and breathes
2:04:33content and they're growing it, you
2:04:35know, themselves. Like I have a friend
2:04:36and probably Greg from Austin from
2:04:38Bloom,
2:04:38>> Uncle Greg, that episode will be up by
2:04:40now. We'll pop that up.
2:04:41>> Awesome. So Greg, he's a buddy of mine.
2:04:43like you know he's got a guy brilliant
2:04:46creative guy that's just behind the
2:04:47scenes working on him to figure out the
2:04:48YouTube channel with him and it's like I
2:04:49think bringing someone like that in is
2:04:50is super valuable but yeah the YouTube
2:04:54can be so powerful for business but it
2:04:57has to be done right like we we're with
2:04:58our clients like the the clients we talk
2:05:00about like we've worked with you know
2:05:02obviously the Red Bull we've worked with
2:05:03Philadelphia Eagles Yeti car companies
2:05:06we even worked with like the academy
2:05:08like the Oscars you know so many
2:05:10different companies and like the ones
2:05:11that crush it take it seriously like
2:05:13they really go for it.
2:05:14>> I think like my and again I'm not
2:05:16welcoming more competition in the space.
2:05:18You guys can have fun. You can listen or
2:05:19not listen. But I think what's awesome
2:05:21about YouTube and it kind of plays to
2:05:23the whole thesis of this video is it is
2:05:26of all the platforms and all the skills.
2:05:28I'm talking about long form YouTube. It
2:05:30is the most transferable skill that
2:05:31gives you the most impact under the
2:05:33notion that if you think about like
2:05:34communication, whether it be photo,
2:05:36whether it be video, whether it be
2:05:38writing, like video is the holy grail
2:05:40because that can be you can take
2:05:41screenshots, it could be photo, you can
2:05:43transcript it, it can be words and then
2:05:45you think long form versus short form.
2:05:47Long form can be diced up into short
2:05:50form. And then just the evergreen nature
2:05:52of it. I mean, bro, I'll actually pop
2:05:54her up. Uh, she actually lives in
2:05:56Austin. Her name is Kao. I might have to
2:05:58pay her an extra bag of money for this.
2:06:00She We gave her art like five, six,
2:06:03seven years ago and she did like a
2:06:04random UTM link. Bro, it still gets
2:06:07sales. Like people don't understand like
2:06:10the evergreen nature where a it could
2:06:12just hit the algorithm. Maybe you redo
2:06:14the thumbnail or B maybe someone goes
2:06:16down a rabbit hole and looks through
2:06:17your whole channel and they find, you
2:06:18know, an outlier video from six years
2:06:20ago because they're a diehard fan. They
2:06:21see a brand they like in an ad read and
2:06:24they buy it. Like it is. There's no
2:06:26other platform that is evergreen like
2:06:28this. It's not even close.
2:06:30>> You're creating real estate.
2:06:31>> Well, it it's insane. And I just I I you
2:06:34know, we were talking, you know, off
2:06:35camera before this. It's just like I
2:06:38don't know why. Maybe because like CMOs
2:06:41need to be held to numbers and there
2:06:42needs to be like attribution tied to it.
2:06:44But like if you have money and you have
2:06:47the ability to be patient for quite
2:06:49frankly, if you're not an idiot, let's
2:06:50just call it 18 months. We're not even
2:06:5218 months into this podcast, bro. We're
2:06:54less than 18 months in.
2:06:55>> Yeah.
2:06:55>> And you just
2:06:57get better incrementally. Get a little
2:06:59bit more views, learn a little something
2:07:00from each video. It's undefeated. One of
2:07:03my biggest regrets with Iconic is we had
2:07:05a web series and we stopped doing it and
2:07:06we had momentum in 2016 2017. If we were
2:07:09still doing that now,
2:07:10>> yeah,
2:07:10>> it would be absolutely [ __ ] crazy.
2:07:12and and like think about you know these
2:07:14companies like I I reference like an
2:07:16open AI claw these cool new companies
2:07:18but like I think the biggest problem
2:07:20some of those companies face is like
2:07:22sentiment you know it's like YouTube
2:07:24gives you a platform where you can
2:07:26control narrative it's where you can
2:07:27present the great things you're doing
2:07:29like when I talk to sometimes these I'm
2:07:31sure you feel the same conversation like
2:07:32these CMOs CEOs of these big brands and
2:07:35companies they're always like oh people
2:07:37just don't understand like how much cool
2:07:38stuff we're doing and all this sort of
2:07:39stuff and like you could have a YouTube
2:07:40channel and just control the
2:07:42conversation and show the world like
2:07:43what is cool that you're doing. Like I
2:07:45always say like this is a crazy stat but
2:07:47like the second biggest purchase in
2:07:48America makes is a car right after
2:07:49they're home. Generally 90% of purchase
2:07:52decisions around cars are now primarily
2:07:54made on YouTube.
2:07:56>> Wow.
2:07:56>> People their second biggest purchase
2:07:58it's not the dealer. It's not the advert
2:07:59on the TV. It's not reading it in the
2:08:01paper. It's not going onto the website.
2:08:02It's watching the car videos on YouTube
2:08:04and being like is the new BMW X5 better
2:08:06than the previous gen or whatever. And
2:08:08it's like it's one of those things where
2:08:09it sounds crazy to say but then you
2:08:10think about it. Like, yeah, obviously if
2:08:11if I was like to you, buy you need to
2:08:13buy a new car tomorrow. First place
2:08:14you'd probably go is like, okay, let me
2:08:15look at YouTube and see some comparison
2:08:17videos or whatnot. And it's like the
2:08:19biggest second biggest purchase
2:08:20Americans make is being made on YouTube.
2:08:23Like every car channel should be really
2:08:25making great YouTube videos in my
2:08:27opinion because they get to first look
2:08:28at their cars. They get to control the
2:08:30conversation. They get to showcase the
2:08:31videos, you know, instead of like, you
2:08:33know, that those views just going
2:08:35somewhere else. So I am so bullish on
2:08:38companies that have the resources and
2:08:40time to commit to YouTube for 24 months
2:08:43and just say let's make great videos on
2:08:45YouTube and that's what we try to do
2:08:46with our clients. We're just like let's
2:08:48make great videos.
2:08:49>> That's a great reference cars because I
2:08:51mean if you think about the CAC how much
2:08:53it costs and like you're underwriting
2:08:55like paying the salespeople, you know,
2:08:57paying the dealership and then the LTV.
2:08:58Someone buys one Honda, they're probably
2:09:00going to be a Honda for life. They're
2:09:01going to buy three, four, five Hondas.
2:09:03That is insane. That's a that that's a
2:09:05great analogy. If a brand has a $100,000
2:09:07to spend on YouTube, I would imagine
2:09:09that's a lot of people out here
2:09:10listening. Where do you think they
2:09:11start?
2:09:12>> I think for $100,000 you hire me 10
2:09:15years ago.
2:09:17I think you look for a creative person
2:09:20who understands YouTube generally. And
2:09:23here's the thing, it's like I think when
2:09:24people try to make this hire, they often
2:09:26like look for like, you know, someone
2:09:28who is, you know, traditionally trained
2:09:31or is really good at this thing or that
2:09:32thing. It's like, no, I'm actually
2:09:33looking for YouTubers. Like, if I was a
2:09:35brand, I would be like, okay, let's just
2:09:36say I'm a brand and I'm in like the
2:09:38beverage space, right? I would look and
2:09:40just see like, is there any like cool
2:09:41creators out there that already making
2:09:43content that's pretty good? Like one of
2:09:44my friends is starting this coffee shop
2:09:46in Austin and he's just like showing me
2:09:48this this guy and he's like, oh, this
2:09:49guy said he would run my social media
2:09:50for me, run my YouTube for me. And I'm
2:09:51like, has he ever done YouTube before?
2:09:53Has he ever grown anything? And he's
2:09:55like, no. But he's like, look at how
2:09:56cool he can make stuff look. And I'm
2:09:57like, I don't care. you can find someone
2:10:00that's not making any money on YouTube,
2:10:01but is making kind of interesting stuff
2:10:03and is, you know, maybe getting a few
2:10:04thousand views a video and it's like,
2:10:05"Oh, do you want to come work for me for
2:10:0780,000 a year, 100,000 a year?" So, I
2:10:10think probably with that budget, like if
2:10:12I if I didn't want to figure it out
2:10:13myself, I would try to hire that person
2:10:15and I would look at people already doing
2:10:17it and just say, "Come full time with me
2:10:19and let's make something on the channel
2:10:20together." if I want to like really
2:10:22invest into myself to learn and get the
2:10:24skills I think you just got to start
2:10:26looking at yourself as like this is
2:10:28going to be a large commitment like you
2:10:30said yourself like you know it's 18 24
2:10:32months and you know but if you master it
2:10:34it's like now every company you ever
2:10:37start you have a skill that you can
2:10:39build an audience around your product
2:10:41and around around what you're doing
2:10:42>> and like I said I think having the skill
2:10:45of YouTube basically lends itself to all
2:10:47their platforms but you can't reverse it
2:10:48like if you're really good at Twitter
2:10:50guys that does not mean that you're
2:10:51going to be really good at YouTube. So
2:10:53yeah, I would lead with someone being
2:10:54good at YouTube. What do you think they
2:10:56should prioritize first? So like if
2:10:57somebody starts a channel, what should
2:10:59they prioritize first
2:11:00>> in terms of hire?
2:11:01>> No, they hire someone and then they
2:11:02start they they press go. What should
2:11:04they be prioritizing?
2:11:05>> I I think at the start it's just about
2:11:08like there's this idea that I love which
2:11:10is the YouTube pendulum idea that I came
2:11:11up with a few years ago. And it's this
2:11:13idea that like the pendulum kind of
2:11:15shifts depending on what stage of the
2:11:17journey you're in. And I can send you
2:11:18the graphic so we can share it. But the
2:11:20idea basically is like at the start
2:11:23you're kind of at the far left of the
2:11:25pendulum. And what that means is your
2:11:26videos just need to be watchable. So for
2:11:29the first start, like it sounds so
2:11:31basic, but you just need to make a video
2:11:32that someone can watch. Like it doesn't
2:11:34matter if it's good. It doesn't matter
2:11:35if it gets a,000 views, 100,000 views,
2:11:36you just need to be able to make a video
2:11:38that like the audio isn't isn't
2:11:40terrible. The picture isn't terrible.
2:11:42Like it's it's it looks okay, right? And
2:11:44like it's funny like I'm sort of
2:11:46laughing about it but like you know I
2:11:47looked at a $400 billion dollar publicly
2:11:50listed brand and their YouTube channel
2:11:51was literally not watchable. Their audio
2:11:52was terrible. I was like you cannot
2:11:54watch this. So like it doesn't matter
2:11:56anything else like you can't watch this.
2:11:57So in the pendulum at the start it's
2:11:59like video quality is the most important
2:12:00thing to focus on. Like just make your
2:12:02videos watchable. So step one is like
2:12:04get the video quality there. Then the
2:12:06pendulum starts to shift over towards
2:12:08ideas and packaging. So once you have
2:12:10like a video let's say you go from like
2:12:11a video that's barely watchable to now
2:12:13okay your video's okay. good like you
2:12:14can make a rough video. Now the pendulum
2:12:16switches over to like the packaging game
2:12:19in my opinion and then the focus of
2:12:20course you're working on everything all
2:12:21the time but the focus becomes more on
2:12:24title on thumbnail on idea. So at that
2:12:27point if you're if you're in this
2:12:28position I think it's about like okay
2:12:30like we've got to a point where we can
2:12:32make something look okay now let's see
2:12:35what are the best videos in the space
2:12:37talk through our ideation framework we
2:12:38talked about like look at the top
2:12:40performers go and make the top 20 with
2:12:42your own twist on them like start making
2:12:44these ideas and thinking really about
2:12:45idea and packaging once you master idea
2:12:48and packaging which by the way takes a
2:12:49very long time like I would say I still
2:12:51haven't mastered it even though I think
2:12:52I'm really good then the pendulum starts
2:12:54to shift back again towards video
2:12:56quality and then It's like, okay, can we
2:12:58level up the production even further?
2:12:59Can we like shoot with 4K cameras? Can
2:13:01we like add like extra angles and shots
2:13:03and stuff like that? But the interesting
2:13:04thing is when a lot of like brands or
2:13:06operators think about YouTube, they just
2:13:08think of like how can I make it look
2:13:09better? How can I make it look better?
2:13:10How can I make it look better? And then
2:13:11everything is just about how can I make
2:13:12it look better? And it's not about
2:13:14what's the idea, the title, the
2:13:15thumbnail, the story. So there is that
2:13:17pendulum effect.
2:13:18>> Yeah. I would say another thing too just
2:13:19my personal opinion is I've said it
2:13:21before I think I said in the Samir
2:13:22episode is just ideation prepackaging
2:13:26production post-production and then the
2:13:27last part is how do you find creative
2:13:29ways to amplify the distribution and
2:13:31further feed the algorithm because
2:13:33obviously you can do the the
2:13:34prepackaging stuff and and and feed the
2:13:36algorithm but what are even like
2:13:38creative ways that you can get outside
2:13:40traffic to come in and watch the video
2:13:41and just fuel the fire. I want to tie
2:13:43this up. So, what did Red Bull get
2:13:45right? Cuz you've been with them for a
2:13:46couple years and their views are 10,
2:13:4820x. What did they get right that
2:13:49everybody else is getting wrong?
2:13:51>> So, I think you know what's interesting
2:13:53about Redbull is like Red Bull have
2:13:54always been good at content like
2:13:56historically. So, some even when I bring
2:13:58them up as a case study, people are just
2:13:59like it's Rebel. They were always
2:14:00getting views. I'm like, well, you know,
2:14:02back when we signed them, they were
2:14:03doing 400 500,000 views a video. Now
2:14:05they're doing eight or nine million. So,
2:14:07you're right. Like, it's it's a 10 20x.
2:14:10But I think what they did right was,
2:14:14this will sound a little maybe the first
2:14:16arrogant thing I've said on the podcast,
2:14:17but I think they were willing to listen
2:14:19to me and to creators and not think
2:14:21that, you know, they themselves, you
2:14:23know, had all the answers. Like they
2:14:25Rebel have like some really smart
2:14:26YouTube people in there. But of course,
2:14:27it's a huge company, but they really
2:14:29gave a lot of reigns to the YouTube team
2:14:30that they have there and then to to my
2:14:32team and just let us kind of like make
2:14:35it happen. And I will give so much
2:14:37credit to the brand because I know I
2:14:38know how easy it is when you have a big
2:14:39company for everyone to get involved and
2:14:41start like putting their fingers in it
2:14:42and like messing around with it and
2:14:43stuff, but like they they've always been
2:14:45very good about like, okay, what do we
2:14:46need to do? Like we'll make it happen.
2:14:48So I think they did that right. And I
2:14:50think from one thing they just deserve
2:14:52huge credit for was just the foresight
2:14:54of like 5 years ago all these brands
2:14:56were like, "Oh, we just need to make a
2:14:57documentary that gets like on a Netflix
2:14:59show or like we need to do this or
2:15:00that." And Red Bull were just like
2:15:02YouTube is it. You know, YouTube is the
2:15:05premium platform for video, right? And
2:15:07it's like five years ago, maybe you
2:15:10wouldn't have said that. Today, it's
2:15:11like, well, the average YouTube video is
2:15:13like 15 to 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
2:15:15That's kind of like TV, huh? And then
2:15:17it's like, now they're really high
2:15:18production. Now, they're being watched
2:15:19on TV. 60 70% of traffic is coming from
2:15:21TV for some channels. And it's like
2:15:23YouTube is is the premium place to have
2:15:26your own content. And I think they saw
2:15:28that before most people.
2:15:29>> Sounds practical. Hire experts and
2:15:31empower them. How do they look at ROI?
2:15:33How do they like evaluate like your
2:15:34partnership? Is it views?
2:15:36>> So, when we first started it was it was
2:15:38views. It was like a part of my my deal
2:15:42would would have been on like a certain
2:15:43growth target and growing to a certain
2:15:45number. But I think it's kind of like at
2:15:48at a certain scale for a brand like
2:15:50that. It's kind of the same reason of
2:15:52how do they how do they calculate ROI on
2:15:53their F1 team or on their like soccer
2:15:56teams. It's like I think the best way
2:15:58you calculate ROI for a Red Rebel or the
2:15:59best way you see the value for Redbull
2:16:01is the fact that when you make an ad,
2:16:03it's 10 seconds, it's 15 seconds, it's
2:16:0520 seconds, whatever it is, and people
2:16:07aren't really engaged. When you make a
2:16:08video that gets 20 million views, like
2:16:10the one that I just scrunched up in this
2:16:11ball, or 30 million views, it is 30
2:16:14million people that watch for 5 minutes
2:16:15or 10 minutes. Like, where else can you
2:16:18buy that? Like if I if I just sort of
2:16:20said with money buy 30 million people
2:16:23watching 10 minutes plus of a 20inut
2:16:26video that's 10 minutes of them spending
2:16:29time with you. Where else can you buy
2:16:30that?
2:16:31>> Yeah. I mean if you back into the CPMs
2:16:33then again however much they're paying
2:16:35you is probably not enough if you if you
2:16:36back into the millions and millions of
2:16:38views quite frankly. Pretty crazy. So
2:16:41for everybody out there listening I
2:16:42think it's pretty pretty clear. We're
2:16:43going to repop up that pendulum. I think
2:16:44the pendulum is great. It's start with
2:16:47something. and get the technical down,
2:16:48the audio, the video, and then basically
2:16:51listen to this podcast three, four,
2:16:52five, six, 10 times, download the PDF,
2:16:54implement all the things that we talked
2:16:55about, and then just swing back and
2:16:58forth. I'd be remiss if we didn't talk
2:16:59about AI. So, I'd love to just know how
2:17:01do you integrate AI into your content,
2:17:03your client's content? How do you see
2:17:04AI?
2:17:05>> So, I think I'm I'm one of those people
2:17:07that's like kind of bullish and bearish
2:17:08at the same time, which is like, and I'm
2:17:11I'm sure people relate to this, which is
2:17:12like you see some people say, "I'm using
2:17:14AI for everything. It's great. It's
2:17:15amazing. It's it's completely
2:17:16transformed my content workflow. It's
2:17:18it's everything. And then I see some
2:17:20people and they're like, "Yeah, I'm not
2:17:21using it at all." And I see both those
2:17:23people winning. Like, you know, so I'm
2:17:25It's quite hard to sometimes get through
2:17:28the noise. We're using AI a lot in
2:17:32pre-production. So when I said that 500
2:17:34ideas, like it's amazing how useful AI
2:17:37is in ideation. So, for example, like
2:17:39Claude has a plugin where you can
2:17:42connect the platforms like Vid IQ. I
2:17:45think one of 10 might have that
2:17:46connection yet. And you can connect it
2:17:47through Claude and then actually talk to
2:17:49Claude about outliers. Be like, "Okay,
2:17:51I'm in the fitness niche. Go find the
2:17:53top 20 most viewed videos in the last
2:17:56365 days that are focused on this
2:17:58specific topic and then let's talk about
2:18:00them, brainstorm around them together."
2:18:01So we'll use claude and and gemini but
2:18:06mainly claude a lot in the ideation
2:18:08process right now. We use Gemini a lot
2:18:10for image generation for thumbnails for
2:18:13even just for like concepts for
2:18:15thumbnail concepts. So we'll use Gemini
2:18:17a lot in that in that sense. And then
2:18:20honestly the one area I'm I'm curious
2:18:22what you think about this, but the one
2:18:24area we have not been able to like
2:18:26successfully use AI is still writing
2:18:30good content. Like we we get it like 80%
2:18:34of the way there, but I think the 20% is
2:18:35always still human. It's still like, you
2:18:37know, the person getting on top. So
2:18:39yeah, we'll use it a lot in
2:18:40pre-production, but not as much in post
2:18:41and and not as much in the in the
2:18:42writing of content. Yeah, obviously I
2:18:44use it for like outlines, but from a
2:18:46Yeah, I don't use it for anything from a
2:18:47writing perspective, but I have yet to
2:18:50not be overly obsessed on the
2:18:51pre-production side and make sure that
2:18:53I'm putting in the time to really know
2:18:55the guest. I almost am scared, quite
2:18:57frankly, to just solely rely on AI in
2:18:59the pre-production where my team
2:19:00probably at this point is probably
2:19:02[ __ ] frustrated that like I need to
2:19:04put in X amount of time on
2:19:06pre-production or I don't feel
2:19:07comfortable walking onto this set that
2:19:08the product is going to be at the level
2:19:09that it needs to be at. So there's
2:19:10certain things with AI will never take
2:19:12place with the human. I also just want
2:19:14to touch on something that you said and
2:19:16guys, we're going to link it down below
2:19:17and I'm going to pop it up right now.
2:19:18The episode's going to be out. What
2:19:20Patty was talking about, they're called
2:19:21MCPs and they're basically connectors
2:19:23where you can get data from a third
2:19:25party source and bring it into Claude
2:19:26and ask a question. So we did an episode
2:19:27with a guy named Remy, absolute 21, 22y
2:19:30old [ __ ] ninja. We went through all
2:19:32of this and yeah, it could help you all
2:19:35of these questions, you know, outliers
2:19:36for titles, thumbnails, ideas, all of
2:19:38that stuff. It could take the raw data
2:19:40from the third party platforms and give
2:19:42you kind of dialed in ideas. Huge
2:19:46[ __ ] fan of the MCP. Yep. Huge, huge
2:19:48fan. All right, so I want to round the
2:19:50corner before we get to Quick Strag. I
2:19:51want to talk about the next decade.
2:19:53Obviously, we're talking about
2:19:55principles and frameworks that apply to
2:19:56any platform, but YouTube is kind of the
2:19:58big one that I think both of us are
2:20:00championing. Get on YouTube. Where does
2:20:03YouTube go in the next 10 years? Where
2:20:04do you think it goes? I am unbelievably
2:20:07bullish on YouTube to the point where
2:20:09it's almost concerning to people around
2:20:11me who aren't because I have two main
2:20:14companies both focused on YouTube. Most
2:20:17of my investments are in YouTube focused
2:20:18companies. My biggest like individual
2:20:21stock is Google. Like I am just like so
2:20:24bullish on YouTube as a whole. And I
2:20:27have been that way for the last 10 years
2:20:30pretty much. Like I remember arguing
2:20:31with people. I remember when I was 19 or
2:20:3520 um and I had a YouTube channel at the
2:20:37time that was making me a few thousand
2:20:39dollars a month and I remember a college
2:20:42professor telling me like that's a waste
2:20:44of time. That's not a real business. And
2:20:45like maybe that created a chip on my
2:20:47shoulder, but like back then it was like
2:20:49I was 19 with a channel making more than
2:20:51at a certain point I was making more
2:20:52than my parents as a as a 20-year-old on
2:20:55YouTube and people still were just like
2:20:57this isn't real. It's not a real thing.
2:20:58So, I've always been bullish on YouTube,
2:21:00but I'm at a place now where I've
2:21:02actually never been more bullish, which
2:21:04is crazy after what I've just said. And
2:21:06the reason for me is I'm just seeing it
2:21:09happen. We are kind of we're like in the
2:21:111920s or 1930s of like Hollywood and TV
2:21:15and like film in my opinion on YouTube
2:21:18right now. I can show you some crazy
2:21:20graphs which we could share with the
2:21:21audience which just show the average
2:21:23increase in AVD over the last five
2:21:26years. not 10 years, just 5 years, and
2:21:28how it's like doubling AVD, how the
2:21:31platform is going from a mobile phone
2:21:33platform to a TV platform. And I kind of
2:21:35view it like this, like you know, I
2:21:37think YouTube is the number one podcast
2:21:39platform in America. Neil Mohan shared
2:21:42that from YouTube, the CEO. YouTube is
2:21:43going after
2:21:45TV with, you know, 20, 30, 40 minute
2:21:48videos on TV. They feel premium. If
2:21:50anyone wants to go watch a Michelle
2:21:52Carrier video, like you watch that video
2:21:53and you're like, "This is like highlevel
2:21:56TV and it's a YouTube YouTuber, right?
2:21:59It's like Emmy award-winning level
2:22:01stuff, right? And it's just a YouTuber."
2:22:03So, we got podcast, we got TV. I feel
2:22:06like YouTube is going after just like
2:22:10traditional Hollywood as well. I think
2:22:12it's interesting like two of the highest
2:22:13grossing films right now are YouTubers,
2:22:15right? Like Back Rooms and Obsession.
2:22:17They're creators. They're just creators
2:22:19and and like everyone in Hollywood is
2:22:21like scrambling like how do they know
2:22:22this stuff? How do they know what's
2:22:23going to resonate with people? How do
2:22:24they figure out how to make these ideas
2:22:25go viral so people go watch the movie?
2:22:27>> It's the skill, right? It's the same
2:22:29skill.
2:22:29>> Retention curve.
2:22:30>> It's retention curves. It's retention
2:22:32curves. It's understanding hype. It's
2:22:33understanding virality. It's like it's
2:22:35that like and same thing I said at the
2:22:37start that the winner of the 2028
2:22:39election might be the person who comes
2:22:41up with the best viral content. like
2:22:43Mandami in New York, you know,
2:22:44regardless of who what you think agree
2:22:46or disagree with politics, he's a
2:22:48[ __ ] G when it comes to viral
2:22:50content. He's great at viral content.
2:22:52So,
2:22:53>> I mean, same with Trump. I mean, you
2:22:54could you could argue that he went on
2:22:55the right podcasts
2:22:56>> 100%. That that might have swung and won
2:22:58in the election,
2:22:59>> you know, like a a party that got new
2:23:02media and a party that didn't, right?
2:23:04>> So, um yeah, I I'm really bullish on
2:23:07YouTube. I think I think the platform
2:23:09continues in this direction of kind of
2:23:11like almost like two paths diverging
2:23:15where you have like premium highly
2:23:17produced content which is like you know
2:23:19basically rivaling TV, Hollywood which
2:23:22is already happening and you know
2:23:23YouTube is the highest watch streaming
2:23:25platform in the world. It's beating
2:23:26Netflix. It's beating Disney. It's
2:23:27beating everything else. I think that
2:23:28continues to happen because they just
2:23:30have the business model like they've
2:23:32figured out the business model better
2:23:33than anyone else where we basically
2:23:34stand back. We don't put our, you know,
2:23:37hands into the curation. We just say,
2:23:38"Hey, we're going to enable all these
2:23:41creators to go make money and go make
2:23:42great content." And, you know, every
2:23:44other platform that tries to like buy
2:23:46that is struggling. It's it's a lot
2:23:48harder. So, I think YouTube goes after
2:23:51that. I think what's interesting is like
2:23:54YouTube shorts, it's it is it could be
2:23:57corrected if I'm wrong here, but I think
2:23:59YouTube shorts is the most watched short
2:24:00form platform in the world like more
2:24:02than Tik Tok. It's, you know, not banned
2:24:03in India, which helps.
2:24:04>> YouTube even just recently announced
2:24:06that they're bringing back DMs, so chat
2:24:08and DMs onto YouTube, which is something
2:24:11that used to be there like 15 years ago.
2:24:12They got rid of it and they're bringing
2:24:13it back cuz what's interesting is
2:24:15recently the UK banned social media. I
2:24:17don't know if you saw that,
2:24:18>> but the UK banned social media for under
2:24:2016s and YouTube was put into it. And I
2:24:22was like, what the [ __ ] Like YouTube is
2:24:23not social media. Like social there's
2:24:24nothing to be social. Like you don't
2:24:26talk to your friends on YouTube. You
2:24:27just watch content. It's media, right?
2:24:29But there is a component where they're
2:24:30starting to look back into social. So, I
2:24:33think YouTube just continues to be about
2:24:34who can make the best content. It's
2:24:36going to continue to be long. I think in
2:24:3910, 20 years, yeah, you're going to see
2:24:40this divergence where there's high
2:24:42quality premium content and then there
2:24:44is still this like stripped back raw
2:24:46authentic content as well that's like 30
2:24:4840 minute rambles of a guy ranting about
2:24:50something and you know, things like
2:24:51that. You have your short form. Don't if
2:24:53you've ever been around like the younger
2:24:54generation. I'm talking like you know 10
2:24:56year olds and 11 year olds or like my
2:24:58friends like I was with my friend's
2:24:59sister and she was she was like you want
2:25:01to watch YouTube? I was like yeah sure.
2:25:02She puts on YouTube puts on YouTube
2:25:04starts watching this video and then
2:25:05while she's watching the YouTube video
2:25:06she's scrolling YouTube shorts and I'm
2:25:08like
2:25:10I thought you want to watch YouTube.
2:25:11She's like I am.
2:25:12>> She's like I'm doing both at the same
2:25:14time. And I'm like damn
2:25:15>> that doesn't sound healthy guys. I don't
2:25:16I don't recommend that.
2:25:18>> Yeah I do not recommend that.
2:25:19>> Doubling down on the views for the
2:25:20channel there. Both the shorts and the
2:25:21longs. Yeah,
2:25:22>> I actually would take a completely
2:25:23different route. Again, looking under
2:25:25kind of the operator lens. On the ecom
2:25:27side, you are a slave to the algorithm
2:25:30of these big platforms, i.e. pay for
2:25:32Google ads, Meta. Everybody's looking
2:25:33for the next place to spend their
2:25:35dollar. There is no better place to
2:25:38plant your money that goes longer and
2:25:40could be chopped up and put elsewhere
2:25:43than YouTube. I would argue any single
2:25:45ecom operator that comes on here, where
2:25:47do you get a better bang for your buck
2:25:48that you win on that platform and then
2:25:50you can use that content elsewhere. So,
2:25:54I just think everybody is always
2:25:56searching for the the next apploving,
2:25:58the next universal CTV. Everybody's
2:26:00looking for the next thing when it's
2:26:02literally sitting right in front of you.
2:26:03And if you just put the time and effort
2:26:04into it, you're going to be good. Yeah.
2:26:07All right, guys. So, clearly we are very
2:26:08[ __ ] passionate about YouTube. Let's
2:26:11round the corner. Let's go into
2:26:12Quickstre. I'm going to ask you a
2:26:13million questions and see your thoughts.
2:26:16>> Rapid fire.
2:26:17>> Let's go. What do you think is the best
2:26:19business model for a creator in 2026?
2:26:22>> I still think it's
2:26:26I still think it's views. I think it's
2:26:28ads and and sponsors for for most
2:26:30creators cuz I think if you're starting
2:26:32from scratch as a creator, just having
2:26:35the views and ads business is basically
2:26:37just like seamless. You just turn on
2:26:38AdSense, you're making money from your
2:26:40videos. sponsorships, you plug in 45
2:26:42seconds integrations. Like I think most
2:26:44I think I would say I would make a
2:26:45statement that 95% of normal creators
2:26:48should just focus on that business
2:26:49model. Maybe look at digital products,
2:26:51but like I think that's the one because
2:26:54it's seamless. Every time I see a
2:26:56creator try to start a business that
2:26:57doesn't have the commitment to like
2:26:59doing it well and like really sending it
2:27:00like and having the expertise or
2:27:01bringing in a great operator, it's like
2:27:03it's tricky. If you're starting with a
2:27:05business though, like if you're if you
2:27:07have like a a digital product, if you
2:27:09have like a, you know, something like
2:27:11that to sell, I think that's a different
2:27:12question. Then I think that, you know,
2:27:14just making great content and being able
2:27:16to integrate it into the product like a
2:27:18Red Bull video, like there's no point in
2:27:20the Red Bull video where you go like,
2:27:21oh, like make sure you buy a Red Bull.
2:27:24It's like, no, they're about to do
2:27:25something awesome and right before they
2:27:26do something awesome, they drink a Red
2:27:27Bull. It's just seamless product
2:27:28placement. So, I think that's a
2:27:29different question. But yeah, for most
2:27:30YouTubers like I do think that just the
2:27:32ads and sponsor business is just elite.
2:27:34That's like phase one. Phase two is you
2:27:36get that and then you you build into
2:27:38like like digital products or things
2:27:41that are quite seamless. Then phase
2:27:42three is probably a physical business.
2:27:43It's like okay, if you really want to go
2:27:45like you know you've got your Mr. Beast
2:27:46with Feastables, you got Ryan Train with
2:27:48Joyide Candy. Like if you want to go
2:27:50into like a product business, a a
2:27:52consumer good business, whatever it
2:27:53might be, I think that's phase three.
2:27:55The key thing for me though is like
2:27:57depending on the product you're selling,
2:27:59everything is still downstream of the
2:28:00views, right? So like this is why I I am
2:28:03a view maximizer. It's like sometimes I
2:28:05see these people and they just get
2:28:06obsessed with these business models for
2:28:07their channel, but then it's like, well,
2:28:08if you were able to just get more people
2:28:10in the funnel to begin with, like you
2:28:11just have a bigger business anyway. So
2:28:12it's like depends on what you're
2:28:14selling, but like you know, if you're
2:28:15selling candy,
2:28:17having more people watch your video is
2:28:19going to lead to more candy sales than,
2:28:21you know, having a really niche candy
2:28:22audience. Um, I think what's good about
2:28:24it is there is an immediate model.
2:28:26Obviously, AdSense can be turned on
2:28:28fairly immediate. I think you need like
2:28:2910,000 subs and then there's all these
2:28:31different ways to kind of get low
2:28:32sponsorship dollars and you could build
2:28:34a real business for either zero opex or
2:28:36a couple hundred,000 in cost and do a
2:28:38million,2 million, 5 million in
2:28:40sponsorship. So, highly profitable. Uh,
2:28:43Mr. Beast, what's the one thing you
2:28:44learned from him that changed how you
2:28:45think about YouTube permanently?
2:28:48I think you know those you know those
2:28:50things where like you know that phrase
2:28:51like everyone thinks they're a baller
2:28:52until they meet a real baller or like
2:28:54everyone thinks they're a savage until
2:28:55they make a real savage.
2:28:56>> Everybody thinks they're better than
2:28:57Brunson until they play Brunson. Let's
2:28:59go Knicks in 2026.
2:29:01>> Well, I think for me it was like every
2:29:04like I thought I was really bullish on
2:29:06YouTube and like all in on YouTube and
2:29:09like thought this was the [ __ ] and then
2:29:12I had some fun conversations with Jimmy.
2:29:14I'm like holy [ __ ] like dude he however
2:29:17bullish I thought because this is a
2:29:19great little point about Jimmy I would
2:29:20say is I remember you know when you talk
2:29:22to someone like that and they say
2:29:24something and you think it's a little
2:29:25diluted like this happens all the time
2:29:27when you meet like like geniuses right
2:29:28so I remember in 20 probably 2021 or
2:29:312020 I remember Jimmy saying like I'm
2:29:34thinking about videos now that I think
2:29:36can get a 100 million views in 3 years
2:29:38time he said that and at the time he was
2:29:40doing this is when I was working with
2:29:41him he was probably doing like 25 30
2:29:43million views a video still great right
2:29:44but I was like 100 million views on
2:29:47YouTube videos consistently. No way. I
2:29:49remember saying that and this is me as a
2:29:50YouTube strategist who would dedicate my
2:29:52life to it, who believed and was very
2:29:53optimistic. I was like, "Dude, I love
2:29:55the optimism." I remember saying that to
2:29:56him. I remember saying, "I love the
2:29:57optimism,
2:29:59dude." Like 300 million views, 400
2:30:01million views, 500 million views. Like,
2:30:03I think he's got I think the Squid Game
2:30:04video is going to cross a billion views.
2:30:06Like, so I'm like sitting there being
2:30:07like, well, you know, he was right about
2:30:09that. So, I think he was just more
2:30:12bullish on YouTube than anything I'd
2:30:13ever seen. Like I've just never met
2:30:14anyone that was like, "No, you don't you
2:30:16don't get it, guys. Like this is big.
2:30:17This is bigger than we all think and I'm
2:30:19going to get there."
2:30:22>> What is the best YouTube video ever made
2:30:23in your opinion and why?
2:30:26>> So I think there's two I'm going to
2:30:27give. The first one is Mr. Be Squid
2:30:30Game. It's just like an insane
2:30:32spectacle. Perfectly built on a trend,
2:30:35great title, great thumbnail, you know,
2:30:37so much production. I think he said he
2:30:39spent5 or $6 million on that, which was
2:30:41I felt like that was like a real like
2:30:42turning point moment where we're like,
2:30:43"Oh shit." Like he's spending like a
2:30:46movie budget on a YouTube video. Like
2:30:47holy [ __ ] So I would say that one. But
2:30:50another one I would pick was is actually
2:30:52a video from Mark Robber called Ninja
2:30:54Warrior Squirrel Obstacle Course. Have
2:30:56you seen this?
2:30:56>> No. Let's pop that up cuz that's
2:30:58probably very very interesting.
2:31:00>> It's so good. So it's such a good
2:31:01YouTube video because in theory I don't
2:31:04think it's like prohibitively expensive
2:31:05to make. Like I think you have to have a
2:31:07good skill to to do what he did. But
2:31:08basically he was like sitting at home
2:31:10during quarantine and he was seeing that
2:31:12all these these squirrels were stealing
2:31:13his bird feeder, his bird seed. So he
2:31:16created a ninja warrior course for the
2:31:18squirrels to get to his bird seed and he
2:31:19was like, "Well, basically if they can
2:31:20cross this course and get to the bird
2:31:22feed bird seed, they deserve it at that
2:31:24point." So he had all these squirrels
2:31:25and he gave them names and they're like
2:31:27going across this ninja warrior course
2:31:28to then get this bird seed. And it was
2:31:30just like such a good video. It did over
2:31:32100 million views and I was like, it's
2:31:34just great YouTube content. Like that's
2:31:36that's the video that like I remember
2:31:37watching that video and being like and
2:31:39my dad is like, you know, 66 or
2:31:42something, you know, lives in Ireland in
2:31:43the countryside and he's just like, I
2:31:45don't get this YouTube thing. And then I
2:31:46showed him that video. He was like,
2:31:47"That was good. That was really good."
2:31:49And I was like, "Yeah, it's so hard to
2:31:52typcast the skill set of who's good at
2:31:55YouTube." Yeah.
2:31:56>> Like how the [ __ ] did he come up with
2:31:57that idea? I don't I don't know.
2:31:59>> He's he was a NASA engineer, which is
2:32:00interesting, right? So he Mar was a NASA
2:32:02engineer who left to go make YouTube
2:32:04videos and I think like some some part
2:32:07of his like engineery brain of like
2:32:09reverse engineering. Okay, like this
2:32:10worked in traditional media and total
2:32:12wipeout and like you know warrior ninja
2:32:15warrior like what does it look like if I
2:32:17bring that over and you know do that
2:32:18with you know brilliant.
2:32:20>> Um what does Mr. Beast get wrong about
2:32:22content creation?
2:32:26>> Cook his ass boys.
2:32:30>> Does Mr. going to be wrong.
2:32:36Like, let me think out loud.
2:32:39>> We're actually not going to cut this
2:32:40part out. [laughter]
2:32:41>> Yeah, that would be a funny little
2:32:43>> It is. It is.
2:32:44>> Uh,
2:32:48I it's it's hard like I I think I think
2:32:51as like in terms of what he is trying to
2:32:53do, nothing like he is trying to be the
2:32:56big he is. If if I said earlier in the
2:32:58podcast, I'm a view maximizer. It's like
2:32:59that thing, everyone's a baller till
2:33:00they make a meet a real baller.
2:33:02Everyone's a max a view maximizer until
2:33:03they meet Mr. Beast. It's like, okay,
2:33:05like I think he is just so prioritized
2:33:07on views at all costs that you could
2:33:10make the argument that there is value in
2:33:12sometimes, not getting the 200 million
2:33:15view video, but making an audience feel
2:33:17more connected to you or showing more
2:33:19personality. I think Jimmy is a really
2:33:22interesting person and actually has lots
2:33:24of layers to his personality that I
2:33:25think I'd love to see him show more in
2:33:27his videos. Like I think there's more
2:33:28Jimmy that I think he could show in his
2:33:30videos.
2:33:31>> Uh so you said you schedule five hours a
2:33:33week studying YouTube videos. What does
2:33:34that actually look like? What are you
2:33:36doing in those five hours?
2:33:37>> So one of the smartest things I did
2:33:38early in my career was I created
2:33:40playlists on my YouTube account. And I
2:33:43created playlist. I just titled them
2:33:44like outlier video, cool title,
2:33:46thumbnail retention, right? Each week I
2:33:50watch YouTube anyway, like we all do,
2:33:51right? And whenever I see something I
2:33:53like, I add it to the playlist. So, if I
2:33:55see like a viral video, add to my
2:33:57outlier playlist. If I see a really good
2:33:58intro, add to my intro playlist. If I
2:34:00see a really good thumbnail, add to my
2:34:01thumbnail playlist. Then, what I'll do
2:34:03is have time scheduled each week where
2:34:05I'll just go through and I'll watch
2:34:07those videos and I'll just take notes on
2:34:09what I liked or what I didn't like and
2:34:11you take ideas. So, quite often I'll be
2:34:13in conversation and someone's like, "How
2:34:14did you think of that idea for the
2:34:15thumbnail?" It's like, "Oh, let me show
2:34:16you my playlist from three years ago
2:34:18where I put that in." You know, it's
2:34:19like that's been the thing that's helped
2:34:22me the most. So, I I take all these
2:34:24videos, put them in playlists, and then
2:34:26each week I'll have 3 to five hour
2:34:27schedule where I'm just like literally
2:34:29just watching YouTube. Like my job is to
2:34:30watch YouTube and study what's working.
2:34:33>> Um, we're just going to pop up Patty in
2:34:342026 and then Patty in 2026 with an MCP
2:34:37where you can use all the data and all
2:34:39the stuff that you like last 3, five, 10
2:34:40years. It's going to be on steroids.
2:34:42Dude, what is the hardest part of your
2:34:44job that nobody sees? I
2:34:45>> I think I think the hardest part is
2:34:48doing it consistently. So, you know, I
2:34:51am not that impressed when someone makes
2:34:53a viral video. I'm impressed when
2:34:55someone makes a viral video again and
2:34:57again and again in multiple niches. And
2:35:00the reason I'm so bullish on myself and
2:35:01my team is right now like we have an
2:35:04entertainment channel, sports channel,
2:35:06wildlife channel. We've worked with
2:35:07finance channels, we've worked with
2:35:09education channels, learning channels.
2:35:11Like we've worked in so many different
2:35:13niches all the way from Yeah. like
2:35:15astrophotography to like a rebel, right?
2:35:18And if you can consistently go viral, I
2:35:21think that is that is the skill. Like
2:35:22that is the most important skill. So I
2:35:25think the hardest part is just being
2:35:26able to do it again and again and again.
2:35:28Like I don't think it would be that
2:35:29difficult for me to sign a client and be
2:35:31like, "Look, give me a month and I'll
2:35:32blow up your your channel with a video."
2:35:34Done it all the time. Done that so many
2:35:35times in my career. The hard part is
2:35:37doing that and being like, "We're going
2:35:38to work together for three years and
2:35:39grow the biggest channel in the niche."
2:35:40And we don't sign a client unless we
2:35:41think we can grow them to be the biggest
2:35:42channel in their niche. That's our like
2:35:44kind of framework. It's like we want
2:35:46even if that niche is small. If that
2:35:47niche is like we are a small niche that
2:35:50teaches you how to like build systems in
2:35:52ClickUp, right? I'm like, okay, let's be
2:35:54the biggest ClickUp systems channel on
2:35:55YouTube, then [ __ ] it. Let's do it.
2:35:56Right? So, I think the hardest thing is
2:35:58just being able to do it consistently. A
2:35:59lot of people flash in the pan. They can
2:36:01make a viral video here and there. It's
2:36:02great. But like just like in sport, in
2:36:04business, in anything, it's the people
2:36:06that just do it again and again that you
2:36:07respect the most.
2:36:08>> Ironically, we're big ClickUp guys here.
2:36:10That's a great transition to the last
2:36:11question before the final four. Why
2:36:14would you quit?
2:36:18>> If I would quit if I felt that the game
2:36:22of YouTube was becoming less of a
2:36:24meritocracy and more focused on the
2:36:27traditional gatekeeping that Hollywood
2:36:28and all these different things became
2:36:30known for. So I think the thing I've
2:36:32always loved about YouTube is I am a kid
2:36:34from nothing in the middle of Ireland
2:36:35who no one ever heard of in my bedroom
2:36:37and I could make videos that people all
2:36:39around the world could see. Like that's
2:36:41always been the thing I've been
2:36:42fascinated by by there was no like no
2:36:44one knows my dad, no one knows my
2:36:46mother, like no I wasn't connected to
2:36:47anyone. I just made good videos and it
2:36:50resonated and built my career. If I felt
2:36:52like there was a point in the future
2:36:53where gatekeeping was coming back in,
2:36:55it's like oh like you know the big guys
2:36:57like are holding it and like you know
2:36:59making sure that only only their videos
2:37:00get shown or stuff like that. Then it
2:37:02just doesn't become a sport anymore and
2:37:04it becomes a game of politics and all
2:37:05that sort of stuff and I just don't I
2:37:06can't deal with that. I've had one 9 to5
2:37:07in my life. Couldn't do it. Couldn't do
2:37:10it. I can't deal with like having sort
2:37:11of like a boss for politics or stuff
2:37:13like that. So, I think if YouTube
2:37:14changed in that way I would stop.
2:37:16There's nothing financially I hit my
2:37:17financial number probably two years ago
2:37:19that I always wanted and I still work
2:37:22harder now than I've ever worked before.
2:37:23So, it's nothing financial. It's purely
2:37:25like if the game is not as true as it is
2:37:28right now, I'm not playing it.
2:37:30>> Love that.
2:37:30>> Um, all right. Last four questions that
2:37:32I ask everybody. Favorite book or
2:37:34podcast and why?
2:37:38I think the podcast that had the biggest
2:37:40influence on me. I'm sure a lot of
2:37:42people can relate to this is Naval. The
2:37:45first time he went on Joe Rogan, have
2:37:47you have you listened to that podcast?
2:37:48>> Of course, bro. That his book is
2:37:50Almanac. Will pop that book up. So many
2:37:52people have mentioned that book. He is
2:37:54it's also like everything is just so
2:37:55everything he says is just brilliant and
2:37:58it's like yeah, it's like he's a mini
2:38:00Wikipedia. The Williamson episode was
2:38:01good as well too. He doesn't go on that
2:38:03many podcasts. That's one of I probably
2:38:05have I don't know 10 and one of them has
2:38:07already been on 10 guests that I really
2:38:10really want on. He's definitely one of
2:38:11them.
2:38:12>> And I I think his like principles and
2:38:13how he thinks about things actually like
2:38:15relate to so many spaces, right? Just
2:38:16like how we talk about virality like
2:38:17translates to so many spaces. It's like
2:38:19you know I think if you if you have like
2:38:20a car valet business, you can still
2:38:22learn from Naval. So I think his his
2:38:24episode was amazing. I actually met Eric
2:38:26who wrote that book as well. He's
2:38:27>> Jorgensson.
2:38:28>> Yeah.
2:38:28>> Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny you say that
2:38:30too because I was thinking in my brain
2:38:31too. I was actually going to say that is
2:38:32such a big Tam. Like you could take all
2:38:35of his stuff and like my mom, my dad, my
2:38:38wife, everybody, anybody can take these
2:38:39these principles and frameworks and put
2:38:41it to mentally, physically, anything.
2:38:44>> 100%. I also really like the book zero
2:38:46to one, Peter Theel. Yeah,
2:38:48>> that was a banger when I read that
2:38:49because like just like the his thoughts
2:38:52on like monopolies and like operating in
2:38:54a market of one and like I do think
2:38:57especially when any space becomes more
2:38:58competitive which YouTube is becoming
2:39:00right now like being able to sort of
2:39:01view yourself as a market of one and
2:39:03thinking like what are my moes what are
2:39:05my monopolies on content basically that
2:39:07I can play on is really important.
2:39:09>> Shout out to Blake Masters. He wrote the
2:39:11forward in that book. He's a homie and
2:39:13watcher of this podcast. Great book.
2:39:15Arizona guy when I lived in Arizona. All
2:39:16right. Entrepreneur or creator that you
2:39:18want to give flowers to and why?
2:39:20>> So, I think, you know, especially being
2:39:22on a podcast and being on a podcast like
2:39:24this, which is which is great and
2:39:25incredible production value, making me
2:39:27think of my friend Chris Williamson in
2:39:29Austin. Like, he's just someone from
2:39:31spending some time around. I'm like,
2:39:32dude, he gets YouTube. He's so
2:39:34committed. Like, there I think one thing
2:39:36you probably relate to this, but like
2:39:38when you grow in your career, the most
2:39:40difficult thing becomes avoiding the
2:39:42woman in the red dress and all the shiny
2:39:44objects and stuff like that.
2:39:45>> Tough. Yeah, if you're someone like
2:39:47Chris, like you're getting like pulled
2:39:48in a million directions, so many things,
2:39:50whatever. Every time I catch up with
2:39:51him, he's like, "Dude, I just filmed
2:39:52this podcast. It's [ __ ] amazing.
2:39:54Here's the tile. Here's the thumbnail."
2:39:55And he's just like on, we're at dinner.
2:39:56He's on Slack like looking at the tiles
2:39:58and thumbnails. He's just like, I'm
2:39:59like, "That is that's you can't train
2:40:00that. It's just like another level of
2:40:01like intensity."
2:40:02>> I just had an hour conversation with
2:40:04Luke Betts, his partner on Newtonic.
2:40:06>> Yeah. And Luke was telling me some uh
2:40:09>> it made me feel less psycho because
2:40:11obviously I take this very very
2:40:12seriously and hearing some of the stuff
2:40:13that he does.
2:40:14>> Yeah. I got a lot of respect for what
2:40:15he's done, especially from a production
2:40:17perspective. And like,
2:40:19yeah, I feel like a lot of these kind of
2:40:21principles and frameworks that you
2:40:22talked about, he has them kind of
2:40:23embedded in his brain. Um,
2:40:26how big can Patty Galloway be?
2:40:30>> I think I am 5% of the way to my
2:40:32potential. I think if I'm being
2:40:36completely frank and honest with myself,
2:40:37I think I work really hard and I'm, you
2:40:39know, doing really well, but there's so
2:40:42much I haven't covered and like done.
2:40:46Like I think for example, right now like
2:40:49we have 5 to 10 clients, you know,
2:40:52that's all we work with, right? I just
2:40:54post tweets and go on podcasts, right?
2:40:56And I've I've got to that point and
2:40:58I've, you know,ve I've like got to a
2:41:01point where I do really well. Well, I
2:41:02have these businesses and whatever, but
2:41:04like for me, the next 5 years, I turned
2:41:0630 and what I was expecting is I was
2:41:08expecting to turn 30 and be like, "Okay,
2:41:09look, financially, I'm pretty good.
2:41:11Like, I've never really wanted that much
2:41:13anyway. I'm not too like material. I've
2:41:15always been like more about the process
2:41:17and and mastering a thing." But like,
2:41:19you know, I'm I'm fine. I could chill. I
2:41:21can coast, you know? And I was sort of
2:41:22sitting there and it was like an
2:41:23interesting thing. I saw this really
2:41:24good tweet from a guy called Matt
2:41:25Pollson. you know, Matt, and he said
2:41:27something like, you know, everyone
2:41:28thinks the hardest years of business is
2:41:30like the first two or three years where
2:41:33you're trying to make things work. It's
2:41:35really difficult. He's like, I disagree.
2:41:36I think the hardest years of business is
2:41:37like years five, six, and seven because
2:41:40things are working and complacency
2:41:43starts to creep in and you start to
2:41:45start to look in the mirror and say, do
2:41:46I really want this? Right? And I had
2:41:47that moment when I turned 30 just a few
2:41:49months ago where I was like, look, I've
2:41:50done everything I want to do. I've grown
2:41:52in the space. I've, you know, done
2:41:53amazing things. like am I in a place
2:41:55where I just want to sort of coast or am
2:41:56I in a place where I want to lock in and
2:41:58I was just like thinking about it I took
2:42:00a week I went to Arizona actually stayed
2:42:02in Paradise Valley with Sedona had a
2:42:05great time and I came home and I was
2:42:07like I am going to [ __ ] lock in like
2:42:11I do not think I have provided the world
2:42:12anywhere near as much value as I can
2:42:14like I have provided a lot of value for
2:42:17some people really you know including
2:42:19myself and of course but like I think I
2:42:22can do a lot more and I think I can grow
2:42:24a lot more channels. I think I can have
2:42:25a lot more impact. And like I said, I
2:42:27think I do think, of course, I'm going
2:42:29to be bullish on myself, but I do think
2:42:31media, politics, sport. Here's a great
2:42:34example. Do you know who Ozaral is? I
2:42:36probably butchered his pronunciation,
2:42:37but Ozaral is a player for Spain, the
2:42:41team who are the favorites to win the
2:42:42World Cup. He scored two goals in his
2:42:44last game. He's also one of the best
2:42:46players in La Liga. You've probably
2:42:48never heard of him. Most people have
2:42:49never heard of him. and he is an
2:42:52absolutely unbelievable player, but
2:42:54there's probably players on his team
2:42:56that make more money than him in one
2:42:58social media post than he does in like 6
2:43:00months of being a professional
2:43:01footballer. And I think it just came it
2:43:03comes down to a simple fact which is
2:43:04like attention and like
2:43:08content and these things like Lamin Mal
2:43:10has a YouTube channel. I don't know if
2:43:12you've seen it, but Lamin, who's like
2:43:13the super super kid from Spain, he's 18.
2:43:16He has a YouTube channel. He's doing
2:43:17like 5 10 million views a video. Neymar
2:43:18just launched his YouTube channel. I
2:43:20think the thing for me is like
2:43:22this skill is it's it's entering so many
2:43:25spaces. I should be able to like use my
2:43:27skill in these spaces more. I feel like,
2:43:29you know, I've done a great job, but I
2:43:30think there's so much more I could do
2:43:31with like sport, business, brands, maybe
2:43:35even politics, but like, you know,
2:43:37there's so many areas I could use my
2:43:39skill for more good. Like I think in the
2:43:42in the space of creators as well, most
2:43:45businesses that are built on the space
2:43:46are built on an existing audience,
2:43:48right? So I think about like a talent
2:43:50agency or like you know a brand
2:43:51management or like production company.
2:43:53All these things, they're really
2:43:54valuable. They're really important, but
2:43:55they're all built on something that
2:43:56already exists, right? The audience that
2:43:58already exists. My company and me, we we
2:44:01are the ones that are working at the
2:44:02front of that funnel. We're like
2:44:04actually building the audience that
2:44:05exists for the whole space potentially,
2:44:07but we're we haven't reached scale yet.
2:44:09It's hard for me to find people that are
2:44:10as as good. Like I said earlier, my my
2:44:12number two guy in my company for for
2:44:15Outlier is a former YouTuber with over a
2:44:17million subscribers, you know, and he's
2:44:18a genius. And it's like there's only so
2:44:20many people like that you can convince
2:44:21to come work for you and stuff like
2:44:22that. But when I fix my my my scale
2:44:24problem there, I think I can be so much
2:44:25bigger. So, I think I'm 5 or 10% of the
2:44:27way of where I want to be.
2:44:29>> Completely agree, man. Absolutely
2:44:30amazing episode. I appreciate you
2:44:32sharing so much wisdom. We're gonna do a
2:44:34special shout out to Baby Pacino, his
2:44:36dog. 5 million views, 100,000 followers
2:44:39on Instagram went very fast. Perfect
2:44:41example that he can scale any niche, any
2:44:43channel, anything. YouTube is the
2:44:44playbook and tons and tons of PDFs down
2:44:47below for free that's going to help you
2:44:48guys on the journey to scale on YouTube.
2:44:50And dude, we got to do this again.
2:44:51Amazing time.
2:44:52>> 100%. Thank you so much, man.
2:44:54>> Thank you guys so much for watching. If
2:44:55you got value out of this episode, every
2:44:57single [music] principle, framework,
2:44:59tactic is in one free playbook linked at
2:45:01the top of the description. Grab it, hit
2:45:03subscribe, and we'll see you in the next
2:45:05one.

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