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152. Menstruation and Menopause in the Workplace (Dr Lara Owen) — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:04welcome to the menstrual podcast where
0:06we share inspiring conversations about
0:09the power of menstrual cycle awareness
0:11and conscious menopause this podcast is
0:14brought to you by Red School where we're
0:16training the menstrual leaders of the
0:19future I'm your host Sophie Jane Hardy
0:22and I'll be joined Often by Red school's
0:24Founders Alexander And shie as well as
0:26an inspiring group of pioneers activists
0:29Chang makers and creatives to explore
0:32how you can unashamedly claim the power
0:34of the menstral cycle to activate your
0:37unique form of leadership for yourself
0:40your community and the
0:47world hey welcome back to the podcast
0:51today I'm talking to one of the original
0:53menstrual reality Trailblazers Dr Lara
0:56Owen and welcoming her back to the
0:59podcast we've had a couple of episodes
1:00with her episode 52 and
1:0372 uh but today we're exploring a topic
1:06which comes up all the time in the red
1:08School Community which is how to
1:10practice menstrual cycle awareness and
1:12conscious menopause at work and how to
1:15create workplaces which honor our
1:18cyclical needs particularly during
1:20menstruation and
1:22menopause so the amazing Dr Lara Owen is
1:25recognized internationally for her
1:27pioneering and continuing work on
1:29menstruation for decades now she's the
1:32author of The groundbreaking book which
1:33is one of my favorites her blood is gold
1:36she holds a PhD in menstrual
1:39organization and she's a founding member
1:41of the menstration research Network in
1:44the UK and as we talk about today she
1:46recently helped to birth something
1:48amazing the new British standards
1:51Institute menstrual and menopause
1:53workplace policies which going to have a
1:55huge impact and as she talks about are
1:58being rolled out internationally as well
2:00in her new book reorganizing
2:03menstruation which is coming out soon
2:05she explores what happens when menstrual
2:08stigma starts to be disrupted in a
2:11mainstream way and I left this
2:13conversation feeling so much hope for
2:18the cycle aware world that really is on
2:20its way and I hope it really inspires
2:22you
2:25too laa thank you so much for coming
2:28back to the podcast I'm really really
2:29excited to talk to you today how how are
2:31you going how are things with you today
2:34um good good it's very busy time I've
2:37got a lot of work to finish up and then
2:38I'm hoping to have a good break over the
2:41summer to rest and recuperate so I
2:44suppose it's one of the things when you
2:45don't have a menstral cycle to track
2:46anymore about your level of activity I I
2:50really have to make sure I take chunks
2:52of time off and sort of Midsummer and
2:55midwinter a good times for that lovely
2:57have you got any nice plans yeah
3:03yeah you obviously don't have a mental
3:05cycle anymore is it 18 or 19 years
3:08postmenopause now yeah it is yeah yeah
3:11about that yeah yeah are there cycles
3:14that you are tracking in your life I
3:16mean there's obviously you're in the
3:18annual cycle and twice a year you're
3:19taking a pause you said but are there
3:21other cycles that you live within that
3:23you that you track I usually know where
3:26the Moon is um I live in an area where
3:30you know I'm in a town but I'm in a a
3:32sort of countryfied part of it really so
3:34I've got a big sky from my windows and
3:37garden so I usually know where the Moon
3:40is and I follow that um but mostly I
3:44think I'm really following um my
3:48body um so you don't stop having a cycle
3:52it's just not as
3:54loud um but there's still cyclical
3:57rhythms in the body and sometimes you're
3:59just more tired than other times and
4:01sometimes you're more outgoing and of
4:03course all of this stuff around cycles's
4:05got really turned upside down in a way
4:07by covid I think those two years where
4:10we had a lot of time being you know
4:12having to behave really
4:14differently um of course some people got
4:17ill as well I think I'm seeing that in
4:19people now that there's been a sort of
4:21knock on effect to that in terms of
4:23people's well-being um and uh not
4:27necessarily entirely negative there've
4:28been some really good outcomes for
4:30example the normalization of working
4:32from
4:33home um which has been great for a lot
4:35of women
4:37um uh particularly in terms of child
4:40care not having to go so far to pick
4:42your kid up necessarily from school or
4:44whatever you've got to do like narrowing
4:46those distances that people have to
4:48travel but also with the menstrual cycle
4:49there's some good data showing that
4:51people with endometriosis actually had
4:54um a better time in terms of their
4:57symptoms during the lockdowns because
4:59they were able to just do what their
5:01body wanted to do rather than forcing
5:03it that seems to have had an effect on
5:07on uh on symptoms which was something
5:09that
5:09obviously in the menstrual cycle
5:11awareness World we'd thought for a long
5:13time that there might be some
5:15correlation it's not obviously the whole
5:16story but there's some correlation
5:18between endometriosis and um how much
5:21you can follow your body rather than
5:24forcing it into a noncyclical reality
5:26yeah that that that seems to have got
5:29better for a lot of people during during
5:31the covid years so you know it's
5:33interesting when you go through these
5:35things as a collective and I think it
5:37takes a long time to actually understand
5:38what the impact of such a radical change
5:42um is yeah that's really fascinating it
5:45it feels good to talk about it actually
5:47you know I don't think we're talking
5:49about it enough yeah no I agree I agree
5:51but yes it's uh and and it does have an
5:53impact on menstration and I do think
5:56that these even though the new menstrual
5:58workplace policies are to coming in now
6:00and the new guidelines from the BSI the
6:03British standards Institute which is you
6:05know a massive thing to happen that such
6:07a mainstream organization government
6:09funded and it now has a 40 plus page
6:12document with guidelines for for
6:15employers and management for how to
6:18accommodate to menstruation and
6:19menopause in the workplace I mean it's
6:21really actually pretty radical thing to
6:24happen even though a lot of you know
6:26some of us have been talking about these
6:27issues for you know at least a decade it
6:30have been somewhat in the public Arena
6:32bits and Bobs especially menopause but
6:35to have that document now I'm not sure
6:37that would have happened without covid
6:39because we started
6:41meeting I think in during the latter end
6:45of uh
6:472021 so it had been sort of an idea but
6:49it actually but we were all everyone on
6:52the panel was operating out of the
6:55experience of recent experience of covid
6:58um so you know I I think uh it it may
7:01have had an impact in
7:04accelerating some things to do with
7:06menstration and menopause that were sort
7:08of in the in the pipeline just the whole
7:10idea of well-being at work Health at
7:12work has of ratcheted up to another
7:15level with more awareness and more
7:17conversation and more
7:19literacy um and more sense of
7:22responsibility you know that employers
7:24have um and also there's this argument
7:27that is actually a human rights issue
7:29and so all of those coming together I
7:32think you know Co did play a part in
7:35pushing that forward I think we're
7:37seeing it in the world around of mental
7:39health as well absolutely yes everything
7:42accelerated yeah so you were on the
7:45panel for this yeah how was that process
7:48and are you pleased with the outcome
7:51like do you think it contains everything
7:52that you wanted it to or is is there
7:55much more for us to
7:56do oh well an endeav like that is a
8:00massive compromise you know you don't it
8:03it it's it's political it's um you know
8:06you you can't go in with um a sort of
8:09radical perspective really you can get
8:11some things in you know um I did manage
8:15to get the term menstruation because at
8:18one point it was changed to menstrual
8:20health and I said no it's important to
8:22actually have menstration in there
8:24because of the stigma you know if you
8:26make it all about health you're
8:28basically saying none of the other
8:29aspects apply so anyway I managed to get
8:31that in but not into the international
8:33one so the international one is
8:35menopause and menstrual health and the
8:37word menstruation has been taken out so
8:38I've lost that one but um you know so
8:41there's little things like that like
8:43what words you used and what that
8:44implies that you can argue about for
8:46forever and you some some of it you get
8:49some of it you don't um there's a um a
8:54big well there certain things were
8:56emphasized that I might not have
8:58emphasized so much
9:00but the main thing is that the spirit of
9:04the policy is that the menstrual cycle
9:07is just is a normal thing that women
9:09live through it shouldn't be stigmatized
9:11it should be acknowledged we should
9:14understand it and uh anyone who has any
9:17symptoms so is very symptom based should
9:20have uh accommodation in the workplace
9:23to be able to work around that and not
9:25have to feel that they have to hide it
9:26or that they have to work through it um
9:29or that they shouldn't progress in their
9:30career because of it so that's very very
9:34important it doesn't tick all the boxes
9:36or the menstral cycle sorry that's a
9:38terrible phrase tick all the
9:41boxes you know what I mean it's yeah um
9:44that's the sort of language you start
9:45using when you do these things um to uh
9:48of a menstrual cycle awareness of an MCA
9:51perspective yeah because there's no
9:54really um apart from a discussion about
9:57stigma and the impact that has on every
9:59body who menstruates there's not really
10:02any any allowance for uh people to take
10:05time off when they have their period
10:07unless they're too symptomatic to be
10:08able to work so it's not following the
10:12sort of um processes for example that
10:15red school people who study with red
10:16school would do around their period it's
10:19not you know going that far you could
10:22say um fall like her blood is gold
10:26exactly yeah yeah not there's not a a
10:29spirit ual or even a psychological
10:31component but one wouldn't really expect
10:33that at this point in history with a you
10:35know a mainstream agender and really we
10:37need more research to show the impact of
10:41living like that on symptomatology so um
10:46the more the more data we get sh
10:49demonstrating a relationship between
10:51following the cycle and having say
10:55reduced dmara or endometriosis or
10:58whatever um you know that then actually
11:01lends a a practical basis to menstrual
11:05cycle awareness um so it's you know step
11:08by step but it is a big step and then
11:11now we're doing the international
11:12standard organization policy which is
11:15really complex because it's very
11:18interesting we've just had all the
11:20responses in from the different
11:21countries about whether they'll even
11:23join this policy in the iso and quite a
11:27lot of countries are saying we don't
11:28need to because it's already covered by
11:30Medical cover people could take sick
11:33leave we don't want to do anything else
11:35we don't see the any need to make
11:37menstration and menopause a special case
11:39it's just a medical issue and then the
11:42the Islamic countries say we're not
11:44having anything to do with any policy
11:45that mentions the term trans because we
11:47don't accept that um so you know there's
11:52it's uh it start everything starts to
11:54fragment a bit and then you're down to
11:56well what's really really important and
11:59what can the majority of countries agree
12:01upon so I think I suspect the polic is
12:03going to get um
12:07um yeah shorter I think it's probably
12:10going to get shorter and it will be more
12:13around things like you know managers
12:16need to understand and accommodations
12:19need to be made um but it won't be as uh
12:23perhaps political as the first one um I
12:26mean in the first one there were long
12:28discussions about how to include or not
12:31include um trans and non-binary people
12:35and how to describe them what terms to
12:37use and there was a long discussion
12:39about intersectionality and about
12:41whether you you know
12:43overtly position this through an
12:45intersectional feminist lens and you
12:48know there was a long whole thing about
12:49that that you know so these things
12:52eventually came down to essentially
12:55footnotes or you know a descriptive
12:57passage to be inclusive
13:00but um they they took a lot of
13:02discussion because were as you can
13:03imagine these are unsettled debates and
13:06uh so there's lots of different opinions
13:08and then when you send that out to the
13:09world the whole thing just goes like
13:10whoa you
13:12know it's massive work Lara I'm I'm so
13:16grateful to you I have quite a lot of
13:18cogn cognitive dissonance around this
13:21because I work in red school and I'm
13:23just surrounded by people who are just
13:25constantly talking about our menstrual
13:26cycles it's just so commonplace and then
13:29I'll forget I'll be out in the world and
13:32I'll forget that I'm not in a red school
13:34and I'll start talking about what day
13:35I'm on or I had my period and then
13:38there's
13:39this there's just this oh my God she's
13:42like you can't say that there and I just
13:44feel the shame all around and and it's
13:47um I imagine people listening experience
13:49a similar
13:51thing yeah and I'm just so grateful to
13:54you for getting right into to the kind
13:56of right into the quagar all all of this
13:59policy work um but I know you love it
14:01it's your it's a big passion for you I
14:03do I think it's really important but
14:05it's also hard yeah you know it and it's
14:10unpaid yes you know so this is a level
14:12of work that everybody is volunteering
14:16for some people are getting paid through
14:18their work or their Union there some
14:21people involved in on the panel who are
14:23in unions some people are academics and
14:25it becomes part of their academic
14:27workload um but I'm a freelance academic
14:30now so you know it's just it's uh but
14:34but I think it's important and it needs
14:36people who've been in the field a long
14:37time and who understand that some of the
14:40ideas which are uppermost now might not
14:42necessarily be the ones that are going
14:43to last the test of time you know so I
14:47think it's
14:48important that that perspective is you
14:51know represented there so um yes it it
14:56it's a privilege uh to be involved at
14:58that level for sure and I and I feel for
15:01everybody really who's in a sort of
15:03mature stage of life might be looking to
15:05sort of downgrade their workload a bit
15:08um and yet they've got a specialization
15:10that you know they're passionate about
15:13which is a wonderful thing I mean I'm
15:15you know got I'm not near retiring but
15:19um there's still a sense of I suppose
15:23um you know Duty which is good you know
15:27and it's what is so fantastic is that I
15:31got into this young enough in a way to
15:35have spent you know a sort of working
15:37lifespan with some attention paying some
15:40attention and then full-time attention
15:42to it in the last 12
15:44years um to be uh now society's changed
15:48enough that one can actually do
15:50something yeah so that would have I'm
15:52not sure that would have really felt
15:53possible when when I started out in it I
15:57had I mean I had a vision but uh it's it
16:00is kind of amazing to step back and go W
16:03but then you still get those instances
16:05of you mentioned the word period and
16:06people go yeah yeah so I'm getting that
16:10even now with this book coming out I've
16:12had a couple of people saying you know
16:15saying really really negative things
16:17about it not too much yet but there's
16:19bound to be some you have to accept that
16:21some people just won't get it and
16:23they'll think it's you know that you're
16:25talking about something that just should
16:26not be spoken about yes yeah tell us
16:29about the book oh the book the book so
16:32the book's called um reorganizing
16:35menstruation um and um menstrual
16:38Innovations the subtitle is menstrual
16:40Innovations and the redistribution of
16:43boundaries capitals and labor so it is
16:46an academic book but it's um it's a
16:49softened academic book I would say so it
16:53hopefully it's fairly
16:54readable um and what it does is it looks
16:57at what happens when Metro practices
16:59change which has been happening over the
17:01last decade particularly and when
17:04menstration as a topic enters the
17:05mainstream is something you can speak
17:08about and what's um what's both revealed
17:12and what's made possible when menstrual
17:14stigma starts to be
17:16disrupted um outside of the pockets
17:18where it's been being disrupted for a
17:20long time where it starts to become more
17:22mainstream and so my sort of main
17:25argument I suppose is that it's a very
17:29picture so some menstrual Innovations um
17:33actually support a sort of neoliberal
17:35capitalist view of the person as a sort
17:39of
17:39commodity um and that Commodities are
17:43the most important things and and our uh
17:46relationship to things we own and buy
17:49and
17:50sell um and that we're supposed to sort
17:54of be a sort of perfect performing
17:56liberal subject in the workplace so
17:58things like so say you know tampons
18:00allow women to behave as if they're not
18:03menstrating yes so it creates a culture
18:06where the ideal is a woman who's not
18:08menstruating and so when you're not
18:10menstruating you have to pass to use
18:12Shar ost's term as a non- menstruators
18:15so you're constantly in denial of what's
18:17really happening so that's an early
18:20innovation in menstrual practices that
18:21started in the 1930s but really
18:23accelerated in the second half of the
18:2520th century and then you get something
18:28newer like a menstrual
18:29cup and that then has sort of you know
18:34more complicated function in that it too
18:36disappears menstration up to a point in
18:38that you can look like from the outside
18:41you look like you're not menstruating
18:43and in fact it's even better than a
18:44tampon because you can keep it in all
18:46day you're not bleeding a lot um and so
18:50you can I mean the women in the study I
18:52did on this reported how great it was
18:54that they could put their Cup in before
18:56they went to work and then be at work
18:58all day not have to carry uh any
19:00menstrual product with them not have to
19:02be concerned about being you know having
19:04to change a product um and then come
19:07home and then they would empty their cup
19:09and either you know use a pad at night
19:11or put the cup back in so in a way it's
19:14even better than a tampon a
19:16disappearing menstration and it makes
19:19you behave even more like what we call a
19:21good neoliberal subject you know good
19:23neoliberal woman who manages to conceal
19:25all the tricky bits of being female um
19:28and goes to work looking sort of you
19:30know this kind of perfected state of a
19:33certain certain version of femininity
19:35you could
19:36say um and and yet at the same time the
19:41menstrual cup is actually deeply radical
19:44and subversive towards normative
19:46capitalist ideas about the female body
19:49because you actually see your blood you
19:52can't avoid actually seeing your blood
19:54in um what has been an anerobic
19:56environment so no oxygen has you know
19:59you pull it out and you see it and it's
20:00bright red or it you know it's very
20:02Vivid and you see the consistency of it
20:04which you don't see when it's absorbed
20:06into a tampon or pad so then that
20:08changes your relationship with your body
20:10and with menstration because it's like
20:13you're apart from the fact that you own
20:15the product you're not constantly
20:16replacing the product so you're not at
20:18the
20:19mercy um of the appetising industry and
20:22the all the symbolic violence around
20:23menstration that that happens through
20:25menstrual advertising and just
20:27constantly being tied into a dis
20:28exposable polluting product so you own
20:31it the thing itself and then you also
20:34kind of own your blood as well because
20:35you get to actually see it um and then
20:38you can use it for fertilizing your
20:41plants or you know whatever some people
20:43have different uses for it or you can
20:45just wash it away but you've got a much
20:47more direct relationship with it and
20:49that's actually very profound because
20:51the way we've been trained to relate to
20:53our blood have been the same as the way
20:54we've been trained to relate to our
20:57whole reproductive function and to the
20:58vver and the vagina and everything that
21:00it's down there you don't own it it
21:03belongs to men and gynecologists you
21:05know that they'll see more of it than
21:06you ever
21:07will and and and they'll tell you what
21:10you need to do with it and all of the
21:12stuff that goes along patriarchal
21:14control of the female reproductive
21:16system and um and so instead you're
21:20you've got this direct relationship
21:22which I think is massive I mean I think
21:24a lot of people who go through red
21:26school or any program that introduces
21:28you to a deep level of menstrual cycle
21:30awareness develops a different
21:32relationship with their menstrual blood
21:33that's a key element of of that work um
21:37and I think everyone knows how
21:39transformative that is and then when you
21:42get the menstrual cut being sold in
21:43supermarkets you know being normalized
21:46and being on the one hand this sort of
21:48perfect kind of better than a tampon way
21:51of Disappearing it but it's got this
21:54subversive side
22:01and then I found the similar thing with
22:02menstral workplace policies that on the
22:04one hand
22:05they uh fit into a neoliberal um idea
22:11about ideas about well-being and that
22:13it's really up to the individual to
22:14Foster their well-being and that
22:16organizations will help them to do that
22:18but that you you should be fit you
22:21should be healthy you should look good
22:23you know you shouldn't be carrying any
22:25extra weight you know this sort of idea
22:28of of the um you know that this person
22:31who's ever sort of developing themselves
22:33into more and more Perfection which sort
22:36of allies with the you know the
22:38well-being industry which does get I
22:40think quite uh tainted by a sort of
22:43commodified view of reality and that if
22:46you just buy this thing you know and use
22:48this thing it'll make you better and
22:50then everything will get better in your
22:51life and of course it's not that simple
22:54no so on the one hand menstrual
22:55workplace policies fit into that
22:57well-being at work
22:59sort of bucket um and it can often be
23:02all about what the woman needs to do and
23:05actually menstrual cycle awareness can
23:07be used in this as well like you should
23:09be paying attention all the time you
23:10should know where you are in the cycle
23:12you know so any of these things can get
23:13co-opted into yeah and MCA can get
23:16co-opted into that um being the perfect
23:19what did you say neoliberal yeah see
23:21because you can go right well I am going
23:23to make sure I really rested
23:24menstruation so I'm fully optimized
23:27exactly my in a summer energy to just
23:30hustle and nail it and yeah you can that
23:33can very easily happen yeah so just that
23:36word optimize put optimize and hack you
23:38know next to the menstrual cycle and
23:40you're you're behaving like a yeah
23:42exactly a way that neoliberal capitalism
23:44goes yeah great you know um so but on
23:48the other hand a menstrual workplace
23:51policy is subversive to that idea that
23:55you know the world is all about capital
23:59uh and and and all about you know that
24:01if you're making money that makes
24:03anything you do okay basically the whole
24:05deregulation and
24:07amorality of the current capitalist
24:09system in many parts of the world um so
24:13it's actually subverts that by saying no
24:15there's actually an inherent value in
24:17the female body just as it is and we are
24:21going to
24:22collectivize which is a big thing when
24:24women come together to say we're going
24:27to collectively claim our right to
24:29menstrate in the way we want to and we
24:30want workplaces to adjust to us not us
24:33adjusting to workplaces that's that's
24:35really
24:36radical yes so it's the combination of
24:39these two streams and and H being able
24:42to see what you're actually doing with
24:44the menstrual work that you're doing are
24:46you in fact unconsciously
24:49supporting uh commodified material
24:51overly
24:52materialistic worldview or are you
24:55making that more
24:57Humane you know are you actually making
25:00it more about what human beings actually
25:03are and what they actually need so and I
25:05think that's really important at this
25:07juncture of the development of um
25:09menstrual activism and menstrual
25:11awareness because we can easily fall
25:13into dominant mindsets especially when
25:17we're trying to make our work palatable
25:19and I think that's when we saw a lot of
25:20these words like optimization started
25:23coming in you know because it makes your
25:25work more sellable in a capitalist in a
25:28neol liberal capitalist Marketplace yeah
25:31I'm thinking of um Dei Educators too
25:34that I've heard say I think it was an
25:36interview with rashika Talan I think and
25:38she said I'm no longer going to pitch my
25:41Dei workshops to corporations as if the
25:45organization adopts a good di policy it
25:48will be more productive she's like I
25:50will no longer do that and I can imagine
25:54mental Educators thinking if I can just
25:56get in with this organization and do a
25:57work shop and if I tell them that
25:59everyone's going to be much more
26:00productive then they'll definitely say
26:02yes and they'll they'll pay me more for
26:04it yeah and we made that mistake
26:06initially with the coexist policy where
26:08we put it in that way and the first
26:10draft of the policy said um that women
26:13had to they could take time off when
26:15they had their period and then they
26:16needed to pay it back at times of the
26:18month when they had more energy so that
26:21was what we had in the and the idea was
26:24exactly that that they'll be more
26:25productive at other times of the month
26:27and you see this narrative a lot and I
26:29see it now a lot on LinkedIn and you
26:31know it's become very normalized this
26:33idea that women should be more
26:35productive at another time of the month
26:37if they take time off when they have
26:38their period but what the feedback we
26:41got was we haven't got time to pay back
26:43those hours we'd rather come to work and
26:46Limp through you know having period pain
26:49and you know taking painkillers and just
26:50sort of showing up and doing the you
26:52know minimum or whatever just to get
26:54through those first two days then have
26:57those two days off and then have to pay
26:58back two days in the middle of the month
27:00it's like doesn't make sense and uh and
27:02and and what we're seeing around the
27:04world is that policies that have come in
27:06like this like the Spanish one you have
27:08to pay back the time I think um and in
27:11Taiwan and various others where it's
27:13like well you're still going to work the
27:14same hours in a month as a man you know
27:17but you can have some time off when
27:18you've got your period if you want women
27:20are already working more than men right
27:23being paid less far more hours than men
27:26and are paid less so you know a lot of
27:28women are already doing two jobs CU
27:30they're doing almost all the child care
27:32and the the domestic labor as well as um
27:36working the same amount of hours as men
27:38in the workplace so and as the women at
27:41cois pointed out they also do voluntary
27:42stuff too on top of it so there was just
27:44nowhere to nowhere in the month to find
27:47this extra time so we very quickly
27:49pulled that out and completely rewrote
27:51the policy so that it wasn't connected
27:54we actually detached it from
27:55productivity and ours worked so it was
27:58the amount of productivity during the
28:00month and the number of hours wasn't the
28:02point the point was that you were doing
28:05work at the time the amount of work the
28:08amount of hours in the day or the the
28:10intensity of work or whatever that
28:12worked with your
28:14cycle and that you didn't have to ever
28:16pay anything back and so that meant that
28:19people started to use the policy and
28:21that was tied into a contingency policy
28:23where there was always someone who could
28:25take over from you people didn't feel
28:28feel well some people it couldn't work
28:29with because there weren't enough people
28:30who could do what they did so that's
28:32obviously something that is difficult
28:35and a lot of a lot of jobs that's going
28:37to be the case so this is not a
28:39universal solution but for things like
28:41for example the front of house people
28:43who were the ones who suffered the most
28:45because when you're on a reception desk
28:47for example and you've got period pain
28:50you can't it's not like if you're in the
28:51back office and you just sit at your
28:53computer and you just work a bit slower
28:55um you've got this constant request from
28:57people it's doesn't stop and you've got
28:59to be perky and friendly and charming
29:02and all the things you don't want to be
29:04at that point in the month and so by
29:08having a contingency policy that that
29:09was a job other people could take on
29:11people could come from the back office
29:13to the front office to sta it if someone
29:16needed to go home because they just
29:17started their period and they had cramps
29:19so that actually um those all have
29:22bringing those things together meant a
29:24workable policy but in those countries
29:26where it's a trade-off women aren't
29:28using the policies and now all the data
29:29is coming in saying well there's no
29:31point having a menstrual policy because
29:34nobody uses it but that's because the
29:36policy wasn't designed in a way that
29:38actually would be workable for
29:45people if hearing Lara is inspiring you
29:49and you would like to play a more active
29:52role in this movement to create positive
29:56menstrual and menop P cultures at work
29:59and everywhere else in our world we
30:02invite you to visit menstrual
30:03leadership.com where you can find out
30:06more about red school's leadership
30:08training it's the world's first
30:09leadership training designed for change
30:12makers nurturers creatives to realize
30:15your full Authority and Leadership
30:18through the power of the menstrual cycle
30:20the doors for our 2025 program have just
30:23opened it would be wonderful to have you
30:25with us we're going to host a
30:28webinar to explore how the menstrual
30:30cycle can support you to step into
30:32leadership on July the 25th so you can
30:36register for that for free at menstrual
30:40leadership.com
30:41[Music]
30:46and there'd have to be a huge culture
30:50shift to get it get it to a place where
30:53it is fully workable because it would be
30:55accepting as you said that a woman's
30:56body is valid
30:58as it is it would be accepting that
31:00being is as valuable as doing in a
31:02capitalist society which you know not so
31:05likely to happen but but I what does
31:09what has really helped it back to covid
31:11again what we started with is the
31:12normalization of working from home so it
31:16you can still often I mean it might not
31:19be ideal from an MCA perspective but you
31:21can still work do some work on day one
31:25and two but you're not having to get
31:27dress get made up rush out the house get
31:30your kids to school whatever be you know
31:32mad Panic Rush stress public transport
31:35to get to the workplace be around other
31:38people all day have unexpected things
31:39happen have people being difficult and
31:41you've got to suppress everything you're
31:43feeling to cope all of that instead you
31:47stay at home in your pjs you know you go
31:49and lie down when you feel particularly
31:51like you need to and you do a bit of
31:53work on the computer and it's not you're
31:55still doing something yes um and
31:58hopefully still getting paid the same
32:00amount but you're not so stressed so I
32:02think working from home has been an
32:05incredible Boon actually for not only
32:08for menstruators but also for just the
32:12idea of flexibility that the workplace
32:16isn't something that you have to go to
32:18five days a week 9 till 5 and uh uh I
32:22know I have you know male colleagues and
32:24acquaintances who also say that it's so
32:27much better for them
32:28to go in two or three days a week and
32:30not five and they actually get more done
32:32when they work at home and they you know
32:35um just feel much better in themselves
32:37that they haven't had to do the whole
32:39commute especially those of us who
32:41aren't so extroverted who actually find
32:44being in a busy office all day every day
32:46extra tiring because of the extroversion
32:49involved can I just go back a step Lara
32:52because there'll be people who don't
32:54know what the coexist policy is to share
32:58just a you know version of the story of
33:00that so coexist was an organization
33:03running um a large community Hub in
33:08Bristol in the center of
33:09Bristol uh from about 2008 I think until
33:162019 but it was an amazing organization
33:19with very idealistic but also very
33:22practical and managed to do some
33:24incredible things and one of those was
33:26under the um initi of be Baxter to bring
33:30in a menal workplace policy and it got
33:33quite a lot of press coverage I remember
33:35it got massive press coverage when it
33:36was first announced it was very
33:38interesting and I talk about this in the
33:39book that the idea of the policy was
33:42actually more interesting for the media
33:45than the actual policy itself so when
33:48the when the policy was first moted um
33:51and then Alexandra came in and and did a
33:53workshop on menstrual cycle awareness um
33:56with with the staff
33:58that you know introduction of the idea
34:00of a policy that one day workshop got a
34:04massive amount of publicity and was in
34:06all the mainstream papers oh my God
34:08these people are thinking about doing a
34:09menstrual policy because it was
34:11clickbait it was massive clickbait so
34:14you know loads of people would come on
34:16going oh my God this is disgusting you
34:17know women don't have the right to this
34:19so it was and then lots of women saying
34:21well actually hang on a minute we do we
34:24do need something around this it's it it
34:26causes unnecessary NE AR problems so it
34:30and then when the policy actually was
34:32sort of matured it took 18 months to
34:34really cook it because there was no
34:35template for it so we had to really
34:37start at the beginning and I I came in
34:40as a pro bono consultant and then I I I
34:43researched it formally through my
34:45University so it um it it um yeah it it
34:51was once the policy actually came in
34:53then it wasn't really so interesting
34:55anymore because it was an actual thing
34:58it shows
35:00how oh there's such a mixed influence of
35:03social media and and people being able
35:06to comment on newspaper articles now I
35:08call them newspapers they're not really
35:09papers anymore but it's It's All Digital
35:11but or mostly digital but that just that
35:14sort of commentary from everyone that
35:16huge sort of opinion universe that we've
35:19Unleashed um that just often is a lot of
35:22people who don't really know much about
35:25what they're talking about to be blunt
35:28but but for whatever reason want to have
35:30a say so there's something very
35:31Democratic about it but is it actually
35:35effective um is it positive in Social
35:38terms and it just seems at the moment
35:40we're in this sort of Gastly culture
35:42where um media Outlets are dependent
35:44upon clicks yeah for you know getting
35:48capital in order to continue and pay
35:50their staff's wages and the way you get
35:53clicks is really through a sort of
35:54lowest common denominator aspect of
35:56humanity which is going for the shock
35:58value in everything so the shock value
36:01was in the idea of a menstrual workplace
36:04policy but not in the actuality of it
36:07yeah and then there are brilliant people
36:08like you who are actually getting these
36:10policies in place and getting them out
36:11there and I'm so bloody Greatful to you
36:14just briefly back to the book and then
36:15I'd love to talk about menopause yeah so
36:17the book's coming out on August the 30th
36:20but it's available for pre-order now it
36:22is it's being published by Oxford
36:24University press so it's available
36:26worldwide and it's available also
36:28through non-academic Outlets like
36:31waterstones have it now and and other I
36:34think even wh Smith have got it on their
36:35website something that really surprised
36:37me so it's widely available it's not
36:39cheap as academic books tend not to be
36:42but it's not as expensive as I was
36:44concerned it might be so it's 40 it's a
36:47hard back um and yeah so you know it
36:52it's uh it'll be aail I think the
36:54there's a digital Edition which will be
36:56cheaper and and and also an ebook so
37:00that I think that maybe they're doing
37:03them as the same thing now at one point
37:05it was slightly different I'm not quite
37:07sure how that's going but anyway so it's
37:08available in in multiple formats and
37:11what's your hope for it what's your
37:13vision for
37:16it well you know it's a funny thing with
37:19books isn't it they sort of have their
37:21own
37:23momentum
37:25and this books had quite a strong one uh
37:29it sort of pushed
37:30me something anyway pushed me to do it
37:34during a time in my life where I really
37:36didn't have the energy for it um both of
37:39my parents were elderly and needed a lot
37:41of care and it was a difficult phase but
37:44somehow I managed to get the book done
37:46through it and it just felt like this
37:48engine even that I went to Upp you know
37:51which is sort of one of the top academic
37:54Publishers in the world and just that I
37:56had the nerve to do that felt like it
37:59was something else kind of and that they
38:02after a lengthy process that they took
38:04it on um first book they've published on
38:07menstration uh since Ceno's 1999 book is
38:11menstruation
38:14obsolete the book that said that um
38:16because Paleolithic women only have 40
38:18periods so we should only have 40
38:20periods so it's a really good idea to
38:21suppress your periods so that that they
38:24published that in 1999 they're nothing
38:26nothing nothing then mine which is kind
38:29of the opposite but um yeah so and
38:31they've been really supportive actually
38:34yeah they put it up for an award and no
38:37they've been really supportive so yeah
38:40we we'll see we'll see you know books
38:42are a lot about timing you know on the
38:44one hand
38:45they're uh you know they shape culture
38:48but on the other hand they're also
38:49shaped by culture or they're permitted
38:51by
38:52culture when her blood is gold came out
38:55a lot of people were saying oh this is
38:56going to be really big because nobody's
38:58written anything like this before and
39:01it's laying this new cultural ground and
39:03all of that but in fact it didn't it
39:05sold and it did get some reviews but it
39:07didn't sell particularly well and it you
39:10know because it was so far ahead of what
39:12the mainstream was doing and talking
39:14about so it became a kind of cult book
39:16over the years this one's a bit
39:18different and it's obviously speaking to
39:21a mainstream moment but there's still I
39:24still have regularly have experiences
39:26where people F put face like they've
39:28just been made to eat a lemon when I
39:30tell what my book's about
39:32so we'll see we'll see well I would love
39:35to maybe next August um I I'll have read
39:38it and we'll see how it's landed in the
39:39world and we can have another on the
39:41podcast that great great and I mean the
39:43amount of people who say to me my
39:45favorite book about this work is her
39:48blood is gold by Lara Owen is it's a lot
39:50of people like that's the thing about
39:52books they stay they keep going that
39:55one's been amazing for that yeah it has
39:57it's really surpassed any expectations I
40:00might have had of it that's why when you
40:01ask me what do your expect what do you
40:03want for the book I like who knows it's
40:07um it's in a way you know some books not
40:10all books some books are more you know
40:11personal or whatever it's not that these
40:13books aren't personal but they're they
40:16it feels like something that a bigger
40:19process than you
40:21is behind and you're the sort of vehicle
40:25for this idea going into the culture and
40:30um I mean it's not I don't mean to be U
40:33sort of ungrounded about that obviously
40:35I did a huge amount of work for it and I
40:37actually wrote every word you know all
40:39of that but it's
40:42um I as a human being you know I'm in my
40:46life which is also about going shopping
40:49you know putting the bins out um you
40:52know so a big part of my Consciousness
40:54is taking up with the same mundanity
40:55that everybody's is taken up with right
40:58and then and then you have this bit of
41:01you which is doing something which is
41:02about something in the future probably
41:04well the book is always about something
41:05in the future you're working on it for
41:07years and years and years and it's
41:09somehow that's what I mean about it has
41:11this engine that you are in a way
41:13keeping up with and part of what you're
41:15keeping up with is something in your own
41:16mind for sure but it doesn't feel
41:19personal it feels transpersonal maybe or
41:23I'm not describing this very well but
41:24I'm trying to get at why I can't know
41:27what this book is going to do yeah I
41:30everything I'm nodding because
41:31everything you're saying makes sense to
41:33me I mean I can imagine Alexander and
41:34shy talk you about it being your calling
41:37that's calling yes yes it is definitely
41:40you can definitely use that that
41:41language yeah yes it's a calling there's
41:44something sacred about it it's something
41:47that is bigger than
41:49yourself and that you are in service too
41:52I suppose is another way of of putting
41:55it
42:00it does feel important to speak to
42:03menopause as well both the experience of
42:05manopause and I'd love to speak to you
42:07if we have some time about post
42:08manopause phase at work so what
42:12challenges are you seeing in your
42:14research and in your work around what's
42:16happening in menopause at work I know
42:19one of the things that you spoke about
42:20in an article that I read is this
42:21climate of Silence which is similar to
42:23the climate of Silence around
42:25menstruation well I think that's changed
42:28a lot and I think that we've gone
42:31further got further with menopause than
42:32we have with menstration and I've got
42:34various ideas around that one is that
42:37women at menopause have more Authority
42:38in workplaces they have more clout so
42:40they can affect more change another is
42:43that employers see it as maybe a
42:46two-year period of time they've got to
42:47be concerned with whereas men
42:49menstration is scary because it's a long
42:51chunk of time do you really want to be
42:53giving people two days off a month for
42:5530 years um whereas giving people more
43:00flexi time and more accommodation for
43:02two years is a different
43:04thing the thing that is worrying is how
43:07I suppose how much the HRT narrative
43:09starts to infuse the workplace and then
43:11this idea the idea is well you just need
43:12to go on HRT and you get workplaces
43:15telling female managers who are on HRT
43:18telling staff that well you go to the
43:20doctor get some HRT and then you'll be
43:21able to basically perform at the same
43:24level and you won't get a hot flash in
43:25the middle of an important meeting or
43:28whatever so then we get this um you know
43:32just
43:33normalization of HRT as if uh there's a
43:37fix there's a quick fix and I see this
43:40being talked about a lot well the minute
43:42you start to experience any menstrual
43:44irregularity or men param menopausal
43:47premenopausal symptoms just go to the
43:49doctor and get on the medication just
43:51get the medication take the medication
43:53it's all
43:55solved and it's not that simple
43:57um apart from the fact that at the
44:00moment the figures are something like
44:0250% of women shouldn't either shouldn't
44:05or won't tolerate HRT so it leaves out
44:08half of you know the workforce anyway
44:12and that those reasons are they've had
44:15some form of a reproductive cancer
44:17already or they've got something in
44:19their family family history um uh or
44:24they experience severe side effects on
44:26the pill
44:28um like they had anxiety and depression
44:30or whatever um or they just that really
44:34don't want to take it like
44:36psychologically it's something that they
44:38feel strongly about so it would be um
44:42you know complicated for them to take it
44:44so and there are you know other reasons
44:46too but those are the main
44:48ones and so it's it that but the trouble
44:52is at the moment it's becoming the only
44:55solution whereas for a while we would
44:57and we still are talking about that I
44:59mean this is in the BSI guideline is
45:02that there are other things you can do
45:03like have desk fans have workplaces
45:06where people can control the heat and
45:10you know the air conditioning so that if
45:13your you know temperature is going up
45:15and down you can actually have some
45:17control over the external temperature um
45:20using natural fibers in
45:22uniforms which make it much less
45:25distressing if you if you sweat
45:27whereas if you're wearing all polyester
45:29or all nylon it's
45:31excruciating you know to have a hot
45:33flush so things things like that which
45:37are very cheap well fairly cheap I mean
45:39they're controlling your temperature can
45:41be more expensive depending on how the
45:43workplace has been built and designed
45:44but there these are relatively cheap
45:46interventions and don't involve medical
45:49Pro procedures to come um you know
45:52clinical practices to come into play and
45:55then there's also being more flexible
45:56about time so having some idea that you
45:59know women around that stage of their
46:01life would benefit from some kind of a
46:04sabatical having more annual leave
46:07holiday leave that year or two years um
46:11or being able to work from home more or
46:13taking a step back from a position of
46:15responsibility with the Proviso that
46:17they'll come back into it so that
46:19they're not that their career is not
46:21going backwards it just might be on hold
46:23for a little while so timing of
46:25promotions and
46:27that kind of thing I feel like the world
46:29can learn from Academia here too because
46:31there is the tradition in Academia of
46:34having a sabatical and actually um
46:36someone in our community is she is
46:39timing her sabatical her academic
46:41sabatical to go with just when she's
46:43reaching the point of menopause where
46:44her everything in her is saying you need
46:46space yes and yeah I wonder how that
46:50could be translated yeah without loss of
46:53income because one of the issues for
46:55women now is because we're having
46:56children ler yeah you can get caught in
46:59a care sandwich where you've got um
47:02Teenage children or in some cases even
47:05younger than that children who still
47:07need a lot of care and attention and
47:09elderly parents at the same time and
47:11you're going through menopause so just
47:13at the time when you need to be really
47:14engaged in self-care you're actually
47:16split between your job and two
47:19generations generation on either side
47:21needing care so it's you know it's a
47:24whole lot easier going through menopause
47:26if you you know if you have children at
47:28the biological the prime biological age
47:30for having children you know in your
47:32early 20s then they're out the house by
47:34the time you go through menopause U but
47:36we're not doing that now
47:38so that's um you know an extra uh
47:42complication what was your question
47:44again how do we set up a situation where
47:48workplaces understand that that
47:49sabatical is necessary right huge
47:52extension of the menstrual leave
47:54question it is it is but I think it's
47:57partly also understanding that we're
47:59living and working for longer yeah so it
48:02used to be that a lot of women would you
48:04know they' they'd either not be in work
48:07outside the home or they'd be in
48:08part-time work and when they went
48:09through menopause they'd often drop that
48:11part-time work or they'd be working at
48:13home so they just would be able anyway
48:15to rest in the afternoon or you know
48:18they they'd have more
48:19control over their work and they might
48:21have a couple of years where they
48:22weren't as active you know or whatever
48:27and yet and now we've got far more women
48:30who are working outside the home so they
48:32don't have so much
48:34control
48:37um and so I think it's partly that we
48:39have to understand that
48:41shift and that and that because we're
48:45then living longer so 50s was seen as
48:48already getting old and that you know
48:51your husband would be retiring your
48:53retirement age was 60 then so you're in
48:56your early 50s is going through
48:57menopause you're looking at maybe
48:58working for six or seven years longer
49:00which isn't doesn't seem like very long
49:03so you might just think well I'm not
49:05going to go for a promotion I'm just
49:06going to tread water really and I'll
49:08carry on doing the job I'm doing but I'm
49:09not going to create any waves or do
49:11anything new I'll just plot along and
49:13then I'll retire at 60 on a full pension
49:15and whatever and then your husband would
49:17be retiring this is in the UK 5 years
49:20later but now we're either at all you
49:24know we're all retiring in our late six
49:26is if we retire getting a pension but
49:28then many of us are carrying on working
49:31and people are carrying on working well
49:32into their 70s so if you look at that
49:35from the age of 50 you've got 25 or 30
49:37years you're still working so to see it
49:39then as like in the middle of the
49:42working phase of your life say say it's
49:44going from
49:4520 you know to 75 or 80 I mean my you
49:49know my mom gave her last public talk
49:51when she was 83 w you know at 83 she
49:54said you know what it makes me too tired
49:56now I'm going to stop she wasn't
49:58formally working but she was doing a lot
50:00of volunteer stuff you know right until
50:02then so she was
50:04active and if you know and Our
50:06Generations the generations coming up
50:08now are going to maybe even go longer
50:10than that so if you see it as a time
50:11span from 20 to 80 of being active in
50:13the public sphere one way or another and
50:16that 50 is in the middle of that so
50:19that's when you take two years
50:21out and then you come back and then
50:23you've got the opportunity to really
50:24move forward and and be a you know of of
50:28great
50:29service to your community uh because
50:33also you you you know your children have
50:36pretty much grown up by that point um
50:39and you know you may have escaped the
50:41care sandwich one way or another but
50:43you've got a long period of
50:45time um you know I did my PhD in my
50:48early
50:4960s and that's unusual but it's becoming
50:52more and more people are doing it it's
50:54not completely out of left field now and
50:57it was the absolutely best time for me
50:59to do it I was so well prepared for it I
51:02knew exactly what I wanted to study I
51:04knew what needed to happen in the field
51:06that I was in um and I was so motivated
51:10because it was such a fantastic
51:11opportunity so I I just ate the whole
51:13thing up I absolutely loved every minute
51:15of it you know it was it was absolutely
51:18fantastic so you know you you're able to
51:21do things differently than you would
51:23have been before and you know I wasn't
51:25distracted by things that are happening
51:27between the ages of 20 and 50 you know
51:30um I wasn't distracted by my love life
51:32or by you know being pregnant or all of
51:35that stuff you know was not um taking my
51:39attention and energy so I could
51:40completely devote myself to to doing it
51:43which was you know just fantastic so
51:46there's a lot to be said for the
51:47postmenopausal years yeah so back to
51:50this postmenopausal zest which you said
51:52that you wanted to touch on that we need
51:55to be making the most of this period in
51:58our lives when we are in this next level
52:00of maturity Authority and contribution
52:04really yes and what we don't know and
52:06this is a controversial thing to say but
52:08what we don't know is how HRT affects
52:10that yeah so I mean I one of the reasons
52:15I didn't take HRT is partly because
52:17obviously I was s of interested in
52:21living as you know naturally as possible
52:24but also because I had a really bad time
52:26on the pill pill and I got became
52:27anxious and depressed on the pill so I
52:29thought well you know exogenous hormones
52:31of me just don't work very
52:34well but I just you know I just we just
52:37haven't got any data really on how the
52:40impact that being on HRT has on your
52:44sense of um personal strength and
52:46well-being so the dominant narrative is
52:49that it improves all that because you're
52:51not having your menopause symptoms yeah
52:54but if the pill
52:57causes women to feel as many people say
53:00not like themselves and to have even you
53:02know subclinical levels of anxiety and
53:06depression what is the long-term effect
53:08of taking exogenous hormones after
53:11menopause um you know over a long period
53:14of time the medical advice is not to
53:16take it forever but many women are
53:19taking it forever and a lot of those are
53:21clearly having very powerful
53:23postmenopausal phases of their lives of
53:26their careers they're very visible
53:28they're very confident so maybe it
53:30doesn't have um any kind of a negative
53:33impact and maybe it really is that
53:34there's different types of people and
53:36for some people they'll have amazing
53:38postmenopausal zest um without taking
53:42any hot te and for other people it will
53:43be with hot te we just don't know yet
53:47again it comes back to data yeah I mean
53:49obviously anecdotal evidence has a place
53:52and knowing who you are and what is
53:54likely to suit you or not suit you is
53:56really important so I don't want to say
53:58that um you won't have that with
54:02HRT um but I don't think it's just a
54:04silver bullet that necessarily solves
54:06everything
54:08yeah so if listeners are loving
54:11listening to you how can they connect
54:13with you how can they connect with your
54:15work so I have a website it's very easy
54:18to remember it's Lara owen.com
54:20um and I teach a course in contemporary
54:24menstral studies which is going to start
54:27its second year um of the course next
54:31year so it I've been running the year
54:33one since
54:352022 so I've had 55 people go through
54:38the program so far it's a year-long
54:40master's level course um it's pretty
54:43intense and it gives you a grounding
54:45across disciplines in what we know about
54:48various aspects of
54:50menstration uh and a bit about menopause
54:53and then the so I'm starting year two
54:55concurrently with the next year one in
54:58um uh March next year enrollment will
55:02open on October the 1st and we are
55:04already accepting expressions of
55:06Interest so you can use the contact
55:08button on the website if you're
55:10interested in applying for year one year
55:12two will only be available for people
55:14who've already done year one and year
55:16two is going to drill down more into
55:18specific uh aspects like there'll be a
55:21unit on uh a module on endometriosis
55:23there'll be a module on trauma in the
55:25menstrual cycle would be very STI
55:27there'll be a module on menopause and
55:29and what you'll get is um you'll get to
55:31read the most influential and the you
55:34know a wide representation of the
55:37academic papers so you get given those
55:39to read and you'll get um couple of
55:44discussions two seminars per module and
55:47in the first year you do a research
55:49project which is Guided by me um so it's
55:53your research project obviously but I
55:55help you with it
55:56so it's uh it's Master's level as I
55:59think I said and uh yeah I'm so happy
56:01with how it's gone um it's it's really
56:04just fantastic to be able to teach at
56:06that level and of course that's not
56:07happening in any Universities yet so
56:09that's why I'm doing it myself through
56:12the website it's a bridge for people who
56:15do want to do PhD study it's serving as
56:17a bridge there yes exactly so It
56:20prepares you for doing a PhD or
56:21menstration and sometimes people are
56:23doing a PhD already but they're super
56:26supervisors aren't specialists in
56:28menstration because there's not enough
56:29of those yet um and so it it it helps
56:32them write their lit review and all of
56:34that there is a big shift happening
56:37though so I was just at the menstruation
56:38research Network this is a network that
56:4012 of us set up in 2018 and we just had
56:44a conference um our annual conference in
56:47Liverpool and there were so many people
56:49there doing phds on menstruation it was
56:51just
56:52amazing you know in 2018 it was like one
56:55or two people I mean when I started mine
56:57in 2016 it was the first time someone
56:59had done a PhD in a business school on
57:01menstration and now there's just so many
57:03people it's phenomenal so the field is
57:07accelerating uh and and a good
57:09proportion of those people are coming in
57:11through red school as well so they're
57:14doing the red school training and then
57:15they're going you know what I want to
57:17really get some and do more research on
57:19this and I want to explore this
57:21particular Avenue so there's a sort of
57:23steady infiltration of people who've got
57:26high level of menstrual cycle awareness
57:28coming into Academia so that's that's
57:30really interesting um but also check out
57:32my website for I do occasional webinars
57:34on different topics which anybody can
57:36join without the commitment of the of
57:38the long course thanks for asking yeah
57:41you're so welcome and I just want to
57:43thank you again I said this at the end
57:45of our first conversation but thank you
57:47for sticking at this for all the years
57:49that you have and for how you are
57:52shaping and changing the field and
57:54changing things for all of us you know
57:55us on behalf of all the listeners so
57:57grateful to you Lara and yeah look
58:00forward to speaking to you again soon
58:01yeah thanks Sophie thank
58:08bye thanks for being with us all the way
58:10through to the end today if you've
58:12really loved hearing Lara we have two
58:14more episodes with her that you might
58:16like to listen to episode 52 the
58:19cultural story of the taboo power and
58:22wisdom of
58:24menstruation and 72 following intuition
58:27taking Retreat and finding your path in
58:30menopause it's just wonderful being with
58:33someone who has been in this field for
58:35so long doing such amazing work so thank
58:38you again Lara and that's it for this
58:41week I hope you've enjoyed this episode
58:43I'll be with you again next week and
58:45until then keep living life according to
58:47your own brilliant rhythm

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