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137. When Words Aren’t Enough: How to Excel at Nonverbal Communication | Think Fast, Talk Smart:... — Transcript

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0:01hi Matt here I have a favor to ask we
0:04were just nominated for a prestigious
0:06Webby award for our episode with Kim
0:08Scott of radical cander can you please
0:11vote for us at faster
0:14smarter. Webby it should only take a
0:16minute or two and would be really
0:18helpful thanks for voting for us at
0:20faster
0:22smarter. weby and thanks for your
0:25continued support of think fast talk
0:27smart the
0:28podcast I'm old enough to remember
0:31watching television in black and white
0:34and the day we got our first color tv my
0:36mind was
0:38blown the same thing is true when you go
0:41from just focusing on verbal messages to
0:44thinking about nonverbal
0:46communication my name is Matt Abrahams
0:49and I teach strategic communication at
0:51Stanford Graduate School of Business
0:53welcome to think fast talk smart the
0:58podcast today I am really excited to
1:00talk with Dana Carney Dana is the George
1:03Quist chair in business ethics at
1:05Berkeley's H School of Business this
1:07year she's on sabatical from Berkeley
1:09and is spending time with us here in the
1:11Management Group at the GSB her research
1:14focuses on the non-verbal ways in which
1:16we communicate our biases our
1:18preferences our power and our status her
1:21forthcoming book on non-verbal behavior
1:22is expected at the end of the year
1:25welcome Dana I am really looking forward
1:27to our conversation thanks for being
1:28here Matt thank you so so much for
1:30having me I was so excited when you
1:31reached out should we get started
1:33absolutely Dana I'm so excited for this
1:35conversation because I have long been
1:37fascinated by your research and
1:39non-verbal
1:41communication when I teach non-verbal
1:43communication I reference the three vs
1:46visual verbal and vocal visual is what
1:49we see verbal is the words and fillers
1:52and spaces that we have and then vocal
1:55is how we say those words I'm curious do
1:58you see non verbal communication the
2:00same way and how do you explain it when
2:02you talk about it almost the same way
2:05first there's two big circles it's like
2:08a event diagram overlapping circles one
2:11is the perception side what are the
2:14non-verbal behaviors that we need to pay
2:16attention to when we're trying to make
2:18sense of or understand other people or
2:20situations then there's the expression
2:23side which is what are the behaviors
2:25that we can use as tools to express or
2:29land a particular attribute so I would
2:32layer those on top of your three vs and
2:35then I would add when you said visual I
2:37would split that into face and body as
2:39separate channels so nonverbals gives us
2:43a whole set of tools through which we
2:45can communicate information and some of
2:47it are things we can control as you
2:49mentioned and other things are things
2:50that perhaps are less in our control but
2:53we convey information through the words
2:55we say but also how we say it and the
2:58demeanor with which we say it I find
3:00this fascinating because there's this
3:01whole other channel that we often don't
3:03think about can you discuss how our
3:06perceptions of power in status are
3:08influenced by non-verbal communication
3:10so it's an entire chapter my book in the
3:13chapter it's called the five non-verbal
3:15rules of power and what it is is a vent
3:17diagram where the perception nonverbals
3:20the ones we need to know to read power
3:23accurately and the ones that people
3:26think are associated with power they
3:28intersect and there's five
3:30of non-verbal behavior that if we
3:32remember those we can really tap into
3:35Power I'm I'll give you two that I think
3:37are particularly useful because people
3:39have a lot of control over them one of
3:42them is eye contact when you look at
3:45someone when you're speaking and when
3:48they're speaking you're really taking up
3:50space with your eyes you're not only
3:52saying I see you I hear you but also I'm
3:55speaking to you and distributing that
3:58around the room you're spreading
4:00yourself around the room when you're
4:02looking around there so eye contact is
4:04one that we have control over and it's
4:07easy to force yourself to distribute and
4:10to use and it has additional benefits
4:13not only does it convey power but it
4:16conveys intelligence and warmth so you
4:19just can't go wrong with eye contact so
4:23that would be one that I would say is
4:25one that everyone can practice and use
4:27and another one is expansion and I don't
4:30just mean with your body I don't just
4:32mean taking up physical space with the
4:34bubble that's around your body I mean
4:36expansion in all kinds of ways so taking
4:39a longer time to say what you're saying
4:43if you take more time you're taking up
4:47space so you see there's a number of
4:49ways of taking up space you can do it
4:51with how much you speak how slowly you
4:54speak physically like spreading your
4:56body out in a way that feels comfortable
4:58so those were the two I would say are
5:01easy to control and there's a version of
5:04each that most people could probably
5:06find so taking space and connecting
5:10through space through eye contact really
5:12important that example of all the things
5:15we could do to take space shows the
5:17different types of paint that we can use
5:19to paint in this non-verbal way right
5:21it's how you say it how long you say it
5:24how you physically show up and not just
5:27you personally but the stuff you put in
5:29front of you all of that and there's
5:31this whole conversation that's happening
5:33at that level that we perceive that we
5:36don't necessarily consciously think
5:38about I want to dive just a little
5:40deeper clearly culture and context plays
5:43a role in this some cultures I'm aware
5:46of eye contact is actually seen as rude
5:48because you're supposed to defer what's
5:50your take on the intersection of culture
5:53and context when it comes to
5:55nonverbals eye contact there's not a lot
5:58of variability across culture culture
6:00when it comes to the speaker making eye
6:03contact with others it's where the
6:05rudess or the cross cultural variability
6:09in whether or not you're being
6:10disrespectful comes from whether you're
6:12looking at the speaker when you're being
6:14spoken to so it's when you're on the
6:17receiving end of being yelled at or you
6:19know reprimanded or whatever looking
6:21back is typically where you see the
6:24variability not if I'm the speaker and I
6:27look at you but yes context matters
6:31culture matters so what I like to say is
6:34that there are certain sort of pillars
6:37that are safe spaces for example if
6:40you're trying to convey warmth looking
6:42at someone being a little bit closer to
6:45them how close varies by culture but
6:48proximity in general is associated with
6:51intimacy body orientation toward so
6:54these are all cues called immediacy cues
6:57directing your communication toward them
7:00like you talking to them and smiling or
7:03nodding like you're doing now you're
7:04encouraging me smiling and nodding those
7:06are called back Channel responses they
7:09unconsciously or implicitly are saying I
7:12hear you I see you I recognize what
7:14you're saying we're on the same page
7:16there's a cluster of things that convey
7:19liking and so there might be some
7:21variability around how close or how much
7:24eye contact but generally speaking those
7:27are safe and so when we go to another
7:29another culture we just need to figure
7:31out what are the boundaries around so if
7:34I go to one culture it's two kisses kiss
7:36kiss other cultures there's three kisses
7:38kiss kiss kiss other cultures is the
7:39left cheek for them and the right so
7:41it's kind of like those things it's a
7:42non-verbal version of how many cheeks do
7:45I kiss and how many times right right I
7:47appreciate that answer it's very nuanced
7:50and there's complexity to it but that's
7:52the reality of nonverbal communication
7:54this is not simple I'm taking several
7:56things away from what you said one that
7:58there's some Foundation principles or as
8:00you said safe spaces around which
8:03there's Nuance that is culturally
8:06learnable and we just have to be
8:08sensitive to that and so the big message
8:10I'm taking away is we just have to build
8:12awareness and be sensitive we can ask we
8:14can observe we can research to learn
8:17what's appropriate and not appropriate
8:19and know that by invoking the
8:21appropriate nonverbals we can achieve
8:23goals like demonstrating warmth and
8:25liking that can really help us in ways
8:28sometimes that our words don't allow us
8:29to do exactly I have another question
8:32for you about the relative value of
8:35nonverbals in actual messages where do
8:39you fall on the relative importance of
8:41verbal content versus non-verbal
8:43behavior in other words what we say
8:46versus how we say it no I don't think
8:48any reasonable scientist would say that
8:51non-verbal is more important than verbal
8:53I think most of us would say both are
8:55extremely important if we're in a domain
8:58where I have a reason to lie or maybe I
9:01don't know like racial bias and
9:03discrimination being one right people
9:06aren't aware of their biases or they are
9:09are aware of them but maybe not the
9:11extent to which they hold them then we
9:14get into some territory where nonverbals
9:16start to be maybe more meaningful than
9:20verbals because I don't realize that I
9:22have bias I think that when you get into
9:25territory where either people don't have
9:28introspective access to how they think
9:30or feel or they have their incentive
9:32eyes not to reveal it right like an
9:34economic game or a strategic interaction
9:36or a
9:37negotiation that's where non-verbal
9:39becomes really fun and interesting and
9:41useful because words aren't enough in
9:44that case absolutely yeah so they're
9:47both important and sometimes
9:48differentially important depending on
9:50the context which again brings us back
9:52to this notion of context so I have an
9:54example I always use when I teach if
9:56you're in a doctor's office and the
9:57doctor says how are you doing that means
9:59one thing if you're at a a bar or at a
10:01party and somebody says how are you
10:03doing that means something very
10:04different the words are the same the
10:06environment and context is different and
10:09we somehow know how to navigate through
10:12that but also we can run into a lot of
10:14trouble when we misunderstand yes and
10:17this is why knowing what our goal is is
10:20so incredibly important if I'm at that
10:22bar and my goal is I'm attracted to this
10:25person and so I want to convey some
10:29attra raction so I might dip into some
10:32cues associated with attraction or being
10:35attractive so when people use a
10:37breathier voice they can come off as a
10:39little more attractive versus I'm a
10:41doctor and my goal is empathy I want you
10:43to know that I'm listening so the first
10:46thing you need to think about in a
10:47context is what's my goal here if I'm a
10:50doctor I want to make sure that my
10:53patient feels heard and understood if
10:57I'm in a bar and I just truly want to
10:59know how someone's doing I don't want to
11:01use a vocal tone that might Express
11:04attraction I might want to be more
11:07casual or upbeat like hey how you doing
11:09use colloquial kind of tone of voice
11:11with a lot of vocal variability that
11:13might be associated with having a good
11:16time so that's the first thing to do is
11:19what is my goal in this social
11:21interaction and look all of the stuff is
11:23happening in a fraction of a second
11:25right I mean we don't sit down and
11:26script out what we're going to do before
11:28I'm going to go to the bar and when I
11:29see this person I'm going to say I like
11:31to think about non-verbal communication
11:33as a language because once we kind of
11:35know what's the list of cues associated
11:37with liking which ones of those are
11:39associated with platonic liking versus
11:42intimate liking and when I do this one
11:44oh gosh I don't mean to be sending the
11:46wrong signal so now you know not to do
11:48that and which behaviors are associated
11:51with being trusted which behaviors are
11:53associated with conveying power that I
11:56think really will help us think about
11:59about how can I best land whatever it is
12:02that I am trying to land we've talked
12:04often about this notion of having a goal
12:06when you communicate by default I think
12:09many people think of the words that I
12:11say and what I'm hearing you say is we
12:13have to expand that goal to be thinking
12:14about how do we achieve that goal not
12:17just through the words we say but how we
12:18say it and that's really really
12:21important this notion of there's a
12:24language and we have to understand and
12:27become fluent in that language and are
12:29more fluent than others perhaps we have
12:31a time to talk about the people
12:34receiving that language you know if I'm
12:35at a bar and hope that you're signaling
12:37attraction to me I'm going to be looking
12:39for things in a way that I might not if
12:40I weren't the rose-colored glasses if
12:42you will which I think is a separate
12:44conversation about our perception of
12:46nonverbals not just our signaling of
12:48nonverbals sometimes the non-verbal cues
12:51overlap but if the audience takes one
12:53thing away from this conversation about
12:55non-verbal communication is that there
12:57are just perception and Russian and
12:59they're different and also they overlap
13:02and the easiest places to memorize what
13:05are the cues are the places of overlap
13:07which is when we talked about the five
13:09non-verbal rules of power and I gave you
13:11two of them you know that they're at the
13:14intersection of both perception and
13:16expression which is those are the nice
13:18ones to memorize and practice because
13:20they do both excellent I want to keep
13:23this notion of language influency what
13:25are some things that we can do to be
13:29become more aware of our non-verbal
13:31communication how they come across you
13:32know when I'm learning a language I
13:34practice with people who say no your
13:36accents off or you're saying that wrong
13:38what are some things that we can do to
13:40actually become more fluent how can we
13:42learn about it I ask my students to
13:44digitally record themselves as they
13:46practice so they see their nonverbals
13:48and and they watch it and then they
13:50listen to it separately so they're
13:51hearing the different channels what
13:53advice do you have about ways to help us
13:55become more conscious of what we're
13:57doing because a lot of this is
13:58unconscious yes that is exactly right
14:02hearing or seeing ourselves so watching
14:03yourself is a really big way to know how
14:07at least you perceive yourself I would
14:09add some layers on top of that first of
14:12all in an exercise like that write down
14:15beforehand one or two goals that you
14:17have for that interaction do I want to
14:19try to come off as really smart here do
14:22I want to be warm am I trying to make
14:24new friends am I trying to do well in
14:26this negotiation am I trying to do well
14:28in this negotiation and retain friends
14:31what's my goal and then I watch that
14:33video or listen to the audio and I try
14:35to assess whether I appropriately land
14:38it that way at least did I think that I
14:42correctly sent the messages I intended
14:45to send that's one piece of the puzzle
14:48but that's your perception now it's a
14:51matter of what did other people perceive
14:53a big part of it is I intended to be
14:56kind and when I look at myself I see
14:59seem to be kind but we lack
15:01self-awareness about how we come across
15:04sometimes and other people will see us
15:06and say like oh no no no let's say our
15:09faces tend to be a little cranky and we
15:12know that we smiled three more times in
15:15that interaction so for us we're like I
15:17was so nice in that interaction I smiled
15:19three times I never smiled so for us we
15:22knew it was a big deviation from our
15:24Baseline and so we think we landed in a
15:27really warm positive way but a stranger
15:30or another person with whom we
15:32interacted if they were to watch and
15:35make ratings on those same dimensions
15:38might give us a much lower score which
15:41helps us assess okay so how I intended
15:44to land and whether or not I was
15:46successful and then there was how did
15:49other people perceive that and so that's
15:51the missing piece in that puzzle is how
15:54do other people perceive you and I'll
15:56layer a bit more on top of that which is
15:59how do strangers perceive you versus
16:01friends and or people who know you a
16:04little bit this is really useful and
16:07that we can all look to better
16:10understand our non-verbal presence in
16:13terms of How It's Landing we have our
16:15intent and we can see it and we have
16:17knowledge relative to our Baseline but
16:20we also have to seek outside of
16:22ourselves and when we do that we also
16:24have to think about how much does
16:26information does that other person have
16:27about us that's really insightful and in
16:30fact it's going to change the way I have
16:33my students look at their own behavior
16:37exactly I like to say the only way to
16:38get better at communication verbal or
16:40non-verbal is three things repetition
16:42reflection and feedback you have to to
16:44practice you have to reflect and then
16:46you have to give feedback Dana before we
16:48end I'd like to ask you some questions
16:50the first question will be unique to you
16:53and then the other two are questions I
16:55ask everybody are you up for that yep
16:57sounds great is there a particular
17:00nonverbal behavior that you look to to
17:04assess credibility and confidence when
17:06you're talking to others what is it that
17:08you look for as an expert in this is
17:10there one thing you look for yes we have
17:13not talked about coherence across
17:16channels we talked about different
17:17channels of communication The Voice the
17:20body the face but we haven't talked
17:23about consistency across those channels
17:26I'm looking for consistency across
17:28channels if my face and my body and my
17:31voice and my words if all of those
17:34things are quote unquote saying the same
17:36thing that makes me feel like that
17:39person is going to fall in that way
17:41right I feel comfortable with them not
17:44only that they know what they're talking
17:46about and they know whatever they're
17:47saying is probably true that is the
17:50thing that I pay attention to the most
17:53and if people are inconsistent across
17:55Channel doesn't necessarily mean some
17:57things are right but it's something I
17:59pay attention to because it provides
18:01information about are they conflicted
18:04about what it is they're talking about I
18:07appreciate you sharing with us this
18:09notion of coherence because we've really
18:11dissected non-verbal communication into
18:13these very specific parts and we have to
18:15remember that there's a totality and
18:17whole that gets communicated and that we
18:20can assess that as well it's not just
18:23did you make eye contact it's is the eye
18:25contact consistent with the body posture
18:26with the vocal tone and the words and
18:28the words to help thank you question
18:31number two who is a communicator that
18:33you admire and why Winston turill ah
18:37tell me more the two reasons I think
18:39that he's just one of the best
18:41communicators that I are the one that I
18:43probably look up to the most is that I
18:45mean he was so effective in being able
18:48to grab the hearts and minds of an
18:50entire country and to Galvanize people
18:54and the second reason is that Winston
18:56Tel turned a speech impediment into his
19:00greatest source of power he had a
19:02stutter and he turned that into pause
19:06because of his stutter he learned to
19:09pause a lot and to use those pauses
19:12extremely effectively truly an amazing
19:14communicator and he worked hard final
19:16question what are the first three
19:19ingredients that go into a successful
19:21communication recipe so first of all we
19:24had talked about goals right you have to
19:26know what your goal is if you don't have
19:28Clarity at least a little bit of clarity
19:30about what your goal is then you're not
19:33going to be very effective so my goal
19:35today was just to be clear I didn't
19:39quite know where we were going to go I
19:41just knew that it was important for me
19:43to whatever it was that I was going to
19:45get it across in a way that was at least
19:47a little bit succinct then knowing the
19:50non-verbal behaviors that land best for
19:54us and that goes back to what we were
19:56talking about the Baseline knowing how
19:58we typically are so that we can figure
20:01out like okay I need to dial up the
20:03warmth I don't come across warmly at all
20:06like gosh I kind of seem mean and I'm
20:08not mean at all it's not that you're
20:10trying to be something that you're not
20:12it's that you are something but it
20:14doesn't come across and you're like oh
20:16gosh I need to how do I fix that right
20:19and that's where your idea of practice
20:22so then it's knowing which cues I can
20:26dabble in there's a long list of
20:28immediacy cues that you can look at to
20:31try to practice and try on to figure out
20:33which one suits you the best literally
20:36and then what you said practice and it's
20:38not about faking it or not being
20:41authentic it really is about I am a nice
20:44person or let's say you're not a nice
20:46person let's say you truly are not a
20:47nice person let's say you're a cranky
20:49person but there are sometimes that
20:50you're nice and let's say your goal is
20:52to be nice right now so my advice is try
20:56to think about the times that you want
20:58to be nice or that you are nice or that
21:00you truly feel nice and say like okay
21:02what are the things that are most
21:03comfortable for me to do when I am being
21:06nice and then tap into those behaviors
21:09because those are the ones that are
21:11comfortable for you and then practiced
21:15them and they do in fact land the way
21:17you intend them to so those are the
21:20ingredients it's having a goal knowing
21:23the best non-verbal behaviors that land
21:26what you're intending to land and then
21:29practicing right just making sure that
21:32you're doing them in an unconscious way
21:33that you don't have to spend a whole lot
21:35of time thinking about it that they're
21:36just automatically coming out of you so
21:39be clear on your goal be clear on your
21:41Baseline and practice so Dana thank you
21:44so much for your time and for your
21:46wisdom people can't see this but I'm
21:48bowing my head and putting my hands
21:50together to demonstrate gratefulness and
21:53I have my hand on my heart and I'm
21:54nodding my head to you saying thank you
21:57so much
22:00thank you for joining us for another
22:02episode of think fast talk smart the
22:04podcast from Stanford GSB to learn more
22:07about nonverbal communication please
22:09listen to episode 12 with Deb grunfeld
22:12or episode 16 with Bert Alper this
22:16episode was produced by Jenny Luna Ryan
22:18Campos and me Matt Abrahams our music is
22:22from Floyd Wonder please find us on
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22:26podcasts be sure to subscribe cribe and
22:28rate US also follow us on LinkedIn and
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