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133: Mamdani and America’s new left, with Reihan Salam — Transcript

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0:05Hi everybody. Welcome to a new episode
0:07of Askiv Anything. I'm extremely excited
0:10uh to have on Rahan Salam. So many of
0:12our listeners and viewers uh have been
0:15asking about a whole set of phenomenon
0:17from Zoran Mdani's victory in New York,
0:20the DSA victories more recently uh the
0:23American Muslim community at large, its
0:25politics, all these various ideologies
0:28that we've been hearing about and seeing
0:29and and have been expressing themselves,
0:31third worldism, whatever the heck that
0:33is, and all these different questions
0:35that are arising in Jewish circles, um
0:37in in observers of America from outside
0:40and within American politics. I know
0:41that they've been causing a lot of
0:43concern. There's a lot of sense of
0:44Jewish alienation from progressive
0:46spaces. Also, quite a few young Jewish
0:49voters for people like Mandani. What the
0:51heck is going on? What does it all mean?
0:53Where does it come from? Where is it
0:54going? Um I can't imagine anyone more
0:58who who has helped me make more sense of
1:00it than my guest today, Ryhan. um as
1:03president of the Manhattan Institute, uh
1:06Ryhan has been one of the best writers,
1:08the best observers of these political
1:11and policy and cultural debates. He's an
1:14author. He's a journalist. Um he was
1:16executive editor of National Review.
1:18He's a contributing uh editor at The
1:20Atlantic. He's he was a fellow at the
1:22University of Chicago Institute of
1:24Politics. Uh he was born and bred in
1:27Brooklyn um and is an American Muslim
1:31raised by immigrant parents who came
1:33from Bangladesh. Very excited to get
1:35into it. Before we do, I want to tell
1:37you this episode has a sponsor, a return
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2:31Israeli society. It is the future of the
2:33good things that happen in Israel. Um
2:35there's a reason I'm proud to carry uh
2:37their sponsorship on this podcast. I'd
2:39also love to invite anybody who uh has
2:41an interest in what we're doing here to
2:43join our Patreon community. Subscribe to
2:45our Substack. If you want to ask the
2:47questions that guide the topics we
2:48choose to talk about, you can join us
2:50there. Uh that is where those questions
2:52are asked. You also get to take part in
2:54monthly live streams where I answer your
2:56questions live. That's
2:57patreon.com/askhaviv
3:00anything or khavivgore.substack.com.
3:02Those links are in the show notes.
3:04Ryhan, how are you?
3:06>> I'm really happy to be with you. I've
3:08learned an enormous amount. Uh I started
3:11listening to the podcast in the first
3:12two episodes. Uh the historical rounding
3:15was hugely valuable to me. So at the
3:17risk of flattering you too much, I'm a
3:19big fan.
3:21>> No, no, we can pause on this. I have no
3:23[laughter]
3:24uh No, you know, before we started
3:26taping, I said I have not only learned
3:29from you, you know, facts. There's a I
3:31don't know the American Muslim
3:33community. I have learned from you deep
3:36internal conversations within the
3:38American Muslim community. You also talk
3:40very clearly about the diversity of the
3:42American Muslim community and all of
3:44those things and the challenges it faces
3:45and how they should face those
3:46challenges. Those things for me have
3:48been a window that has really enriched
3:50my understanding of of that community
3:53also placed Mandani for example as a
3:55phenomenon in that world. So um I have
3:58learned a tremendous amount. So now that
4:00we've complimented each other let's get
4:02into it. Um I'm going to start with the
4:04simplest question. Uh why did Zoran
4:07Mdani win? I don't mean literally the
4:10the the electoral tactics unless you
4:12want to talk about that, but this and
4:14the surprising run of DSA successes.
4:16What what is happening here? What is
4:18this uh you know uh socialist
4:22uh thirdworldist,
4:25I don't even know what to call it, what
4:26words to use. The Democratic
4:28establishment is on the run. Hassan
4:30is putting out podcast episodes
4:32telling people we're coming. Um, what
4:35what is this phenomenon of what appears
4:37to be a generational takeover that's
4:39unbelievably fast, highly educated young
4:41people, white, non-white, they seem to
4:44be driving it. What is it and how do you
4:46understand it?
4:47>> You have asked the question that is most
4:51on my mind. The answer has many
4:55different aspects to it of course, but
4:57one simple way to think about it is that
5:00there is a moral imagination
5:03and there is a material imagination as
5:07well. When you're thinking about any
5:10political movement, uh there is a
5:13temptation to see it narrowly through
5:16the lens as as you you know just of
5:19political organizing. uh you have an
5:21army of doornockers and canvasers. That
5:23certainly matters and we can get into
5:25the tactics that are important. It
5:27happens that you have a generation um of
5:31young Americans on the left who have
5:34become very sophisticated about how to
5:36leverage a new media environment to
5:37build a movement. But you know at the
5:39core of it is a moral imagination.
5:43And this moral idea relates to how
5:46younger Americans have been taught the
5:49American story, where they see
5:51themselves fitting in that story. It
5:53relates to the changing cultural
5:57selfanding of younger Americans. Um and
6:01then on the material side, it relates to
6:05how they've come of age, um how they've
6:09spent their time, uh how they've gone
6:12about making a living. And it's the kind
6:14of collision of these different factors
6:17that have come together to create this
6:19incredibly ripe opportunity for a
6:22movement that is both genuinely radical
6:24but that also deres enormous benefit but
6:28from being seen as radical and outside a
6:31familiar American tradition. Now that's
6:33a lot of words but you know let me break
6:35it down a bit.
6:37You remember you lived in the United
6:39States for a long time. you know, your
6:40parents were Americans, so you know, uh,
6:43our country exceptionally well. And what
6:45you'll know is that for a long time, um,
6:48you know, Americans on the left really
6:50resisted the idea of being characterized
6:52as socialist. Even when their views were
6:55broadly consent with those of social
6:57democrats in the wider western world,
6:59they resisted that term. You would call
7:01yourself a liberal. You might call
7:02yourself a progressive, but socialism,
7:05that term was anathema. That wasn't
7:07always true in American life. If you go
7:09back to the early 1900s, the movement of
7:11Eugene Debs, you know, there was a very
7:14vigorous socialist movement in this
7:16country, but basically from the 1930s
7:18on, uh, you had, um, the stigmatization
7:23of socialism and communism, uh, and I
7:26think all of your listeners know why.
7:28Um, then enter the millennial
7:31generation. enter a generation that felt
7:34dispossessed, demoralized,
7:38um really out of love with this romantic
7:40American story. You know, imagine that
7:42you were someone who um you know, you
7:44were a kid when 9/11 happened. Uh you
7:48saw the Iraq war, the war in
7:50Afghanistan. You saw these wars
7:51essentially end in in a kind of failure.
7:54Uh then you saw the 2008 financial
7:56crisis. Maybe you were affected by it.
7:59You also see a generation that is very
8:00disproportionately
8:02immigrant and second generation
8:04particularly for some from some parts of
8:06the world that often had an oppositional
8:09sensibility with respect to the west at
8:11least in the more educated and elite
8:13corners of those populations.
8:16So then the fact that socialism was not
8:18a familiar part of the American
8:20political tradition actually becomes a
8:23plus rather than a minus. It's something
8:25that is transgressive. It is a tradition
8:28that does not own the failures of the
8:30previous 20 or 30 years. So if you want
8:32to see where all of these novel
8:34political forms are coming from, that
8:37novelty is actually a huge part of its
8:41power. That perceived novelty to be
8:43clear as to whether or not these ideas
8:46are truly novel. You know, we can get
8:47into that. But the idea that you are not
8:50bound up, you are not corrupted by the
8:54brokenness, the illegitimacy uh of these
8:58institutions that were more familiar to
9:00you. I think that that sense of a
9:02rupture with a world that came before is
9:04a very important part of what's going
9:06on. When you're looking at the wider
9:09modern world, um you're certainly seeing
9:11this way in which the past is not seen
9:15as an inheritance worth defending, but
9:18rather as um a domain to be mined for
9:22symbols and uh the emphasis on the
9:25present is incredibly intense. When you
9:27think fundamentally about the collapse
9:28of fertility, what is the collapse in
9:31fertility? But this sense that you are
9:33not part of something that aspires to be
9:36eternal. You're not part of this grand
9:38relay race to use a more banal, you
9:41know, American uh term. You're not part
9:44of this transmission.
9:46Um, you know, when I think of um
9:48articulate radical left ideas, I think
9:51of this idea that human nature is a
9:54myth, is an ideological myth and that we
9:56are in fact infinitely plastic and that
9:58ideas of human nature are ideological
10:01projects designed to keep us from
10:03paradise or in order to keep the
10:05proletariat from winning and what have
10:07you. And I know many uh people much
10:09smarter than I am who have this belief
10:12that human nature is infinitely plastic.
10:15And that therefore struggle uh and
10:19political struggle overcoming is
10:22something that is not just about
10:24elections but is this struggle for the
10:26mind to escape from the narrowness of
10:30this idea that you know humans are
10:32embedded that humans are parts of
10:35families and what have you. I'm sounding
10:36very weird but this is something I
10:38really really believe. There is a group
10:40of people who are ideologues, idea
10:43generators. I don't say that as an
10:44insult. The there are people who are
10:46drawn to abstraction and that group of
10:49people can be smaller or bigger
10:51depending on the kind of society that
10:52you find yourself in. I'm always struck
10:54by the um revolutionaries of the 20s and
10:5730s. you know, if you were Sacko and
10:59Vanzetti, you know, you were these
11:01anarchists, you know, who were, you
11:03know, they could have been people who
11:05said, you know what, I'm going to uh
11:06just, you know, work a job and then send
11:08some money back home to Italy and then,
11:11you know, build a prosperous life. What
11:12was it about them that made them people
11:14who had um these dreams of paradise and
11:18uh what what drew them to this kind of
11:20radicalism? If you think about the, you
11:23know, Yiddishspeaking second generation
11:26folks on the Lower East Side, many of
11:28them just went on to become business
11:30owners or they became dentists or they
11:33became bookkeepers and they just kind of
11:35made their way in the world. But there
11:36was a minority of them who were
11:38romantics
11:40uh who had some maybe a different noble
11:44understanding of themselves. There's a
11:46noble understanding of being someone who
11:47loves your family and fights and scraps
11:50to provide for them and to lead a
11:52dignified life and to honor your fathers
11:54and forefathers. But there's another
11:55nobility that derives from a cosmic
11:59outlook on the world. And I do think
12:02that right now is a moment where that
12:05cosmic outlook for a certain kind of
12:07young American uh is a lot more enabling
12:10and attractive than the meritocratic rat
12:13race. I think that that's something
12:15that's very true, particularly if you
12:16feel as though you've been a loser in
12:18the meritocratic rat race, whether
12:20that's kind of objectively or otherwise.
12:23Um, and uh, that spiritual dimension is
12:27something that I don't see as unique in
12:28American history, but it is something
12:30that we are uniquely vulnerable to now
12:33because of the conditions of how we
12:35learn, how we relate to media, how we
12:38relate to each other. There's something
12:39interesting spiritual and philosophical
12:41that's happening. There's a way in which
12:42the United States was more resistant to
12:45it historically and for a very long time
12:48and our immunity to that has absolutely
12:51broken down. I don't think it's gone and
12:53I think that we have unique uh qualities
12:56institutions that we can draw on
12:59as we seek to counter these forces.
13:02specifically on the question of do these
13:05sort of redemptionist ideas that are to
13:08totalizing and cos cosmological so to
13:10speak um do you think America still had
13:14I mean you say there has the
13:16institutions and you know it hasn't
13:18taken over I don't know uh this young
13:21cohort at the universities
13:24um it's just been accepted that the
13:26universities have fallen ideologically
13:29totally and and it reaches a point where
13:31nobody can defend it. I mean, you have
13:33Middle Eastern studies departments all
13:35over the United States that cannot teach
13:38Israel. They can't do it. They can teach
13:40settler colonial theory of Israel, but
13:42they can't teach the historical
13:43experience of millions of people who had
13:45a profound effect on the Middle East.
13:46The Middle East responded in profound
13:48way. How can you now teach the lived
13:50experience of real people? And they
13:52can't. And it is so accepted that they
13:54can't even be expected to without an
13:56ideological lens that all through the
13:59university system in the United States
14:00that they had to establish little Israel
14:02studies institutes outside the Middle
14:04Eastern studies departments so anybody
14:06can actually do research and thought and
14:08you know study actually this human
14:10community and and that's a Israel is the
14:13signal but
14:15the universities are all almost a
14:18monoculture maybe I'm exaggerating the
14:20elite media is it has it
14:23>> I want to get a little more grounded
14:25because you know I of course uh agree
14:28with uh what you're saying but also
14:31these are you know institutions that
14:33shape a relatively small number of
14:35people directly and what's interesting
14:37and powerful is how they shape people
14:39indirectly right so if you're looking at
14:42the discourse on Israel in the Middle
14:43East this is something that is the
14:45product of a deliberate project or
14:48enterprise that's unfolded over many
14:49decades and what's interesting is how
14:51you take a click of intellectuals and
14:54activists and how you take the fixations
14:59and ideas of that click and how they
15:01become a mass phenomenon which is
15:02something I find very interesting. So
15:05when we're thinking about
15:08you know so again not everyone is a
15:10graduate student not everyone is in the
15:11American university not everyone is
15:13studying Middle East studies but um in a
15:16way um I want to convince your listeners
15:19that that world actually does matter and
15:23I want them to get a sense of the vector
15:25through which it matters. So I talked
15:27about the moral imagination before and
15:29you mentioned Zoram Dani.
15:32One really interesting thing that is
15:34happening in American life right now and
15:36on the American left right now is this
15:38interesting transition. It might not be
15:40permanent. It might just be a fad or a
15:42moment. But on the American left,
15:46the centrality of the civil rights
15:48revolution, the centrality of the black
15:51experience, uh the centrality of the
15:53idea of enslavement,
15:56uh and the legacy of enslavement being
15:58really core to the moral energy of the
16:01left has been really really important.
16:03Yet now it almost feels as though in
16:06intellectual ideological circles that
16:09that experience as centrality is being
16:11displaced by what you might call the
16:14Gaza cult uh Palestinianism. These ideas
16:18that have been part of Western political
16:21discourse for a while for reasons that I
16:22actually think are important. you know,
16:24why Zionism and anti-ionism really
16:27reflect this deeper divide within
16:30Western societies regarding how we
16:32orient ourselves to the past. Uh, but
16:36one element of this uh and the
16:39centrality of the Gaza cult is also the
16:43moral authority of the Muslim or the
16:46moral authority of uh that person from
16:50the global south. Uh so you know when
16:53you're looking at uh Muslim Americans um
16:57estimates vary regarding what share of
16:58the population they represent. Uh but
17:01one estimate is um you know maybe as
17:03high as 1.4% of the population. It is a
17:06population that's grown very rapidly.
17:09And one thing your listeners might not
17:11be aware of is that this is a really
17:14young population. So, if you're looking
17:16exclusively at adults,
17:2026%
17:21of US Muslim adults are between the ages
17:25of 18 and 24. 26%. So, among Jews, it's
17:2815%. Among Catholics, 12%, Protestants,
17:335%.
17:35White evangelicals, 7%. Okay? Among
17:38people are not affiliated with any
17:39religious group, 14%. So, 26% are 18
17:43between 18 and 24. Now, here's another
17:46number that you are going to find very
17:48surprising.
17:50Of US Muslim adults,
17:5447%
17:57reported being a current student.
18:01That is a post-secary student. You're
18:03enrolled in a four-year degree program,
18:05a community college, or graduate school.
18:0914%
18:10of US Muslim adults are in graduate
18:14school right now. Now again, they're not
18:17mostly getting master's degrees in
18:18Middle East studies. You know, a lot of
18:20them are getting
18:20>> Makes sense. What? Why?
18:21>> A lot of them are, you know, maybe
18:23you're getting a, you know, you're
18:24getting a nursing degree, you're getting
18:26a kind of pharmacy, you're training to
18:27be a veterinarian. There are many
18:28things. But, you know, it's funny
18:30because people like you and me, people
18:33tell us that we're crazy be so fixated
18:35on higher education, you know, and it's
18:36true. You know, not everyone's in higher
18:38education. You know, not everyone goes
18:39to college. You know, that's certainly
18:40true. But man, that is really
18:43fascinating when you think of our
18:46universities in the United States as
18:48being sites of organizing.
18:52Um, you know, this is something that a
18:54lot of people don't really understand.
18:56Our universities have become this
18:58incredible petri dish and an incredible
19:01vector for radicalizing people. Now
19:05again there you know again most people
19:08going to college they just want to go
19:10they want to get out they want to get a
19:11job you know that's certainly true but
19:13there's a non-trivial number of people
19:15who go there and you might have some
19:17incoit sense uh that everything is
19:20broken or kind of whatever else or you
19:22might have an inco openness to what are
19:24transgressive interesting ideas and then
19:26there are people who are there who are
19:28waiting to give you a script uh and they
19:32are there to help you make sense sense
19:35of your general discontent that any
19:38young person has or if you're a newcomer
19:40to this country or you're the parent of
19:42newcomers to this country. You know, you
19:45both aspire to inclusion and upward
19:48mobility. But then what if I were to
19:50tell you a story Haviv where there's
19:52actually something enobbling about being
19:55opposed to this machine this system this
19:59imperial state and what if you are the
20:02bearer of something special by being
20:05someone not just from the global south
20:07but from um you know being someone who
20:09is of Muslim origin uh you know that
20:12actually doesn't just make you someone
20:13who belongs to a religious community
20:15because by the way you might not even be
20:16that religious you know you might not
20:17have that religious is literacy really.
20:20What if it actually makes you the bearer
20:22of some important meaningful holy truth?
20:27And what if the establishment
20:30is sat is corrupt? This bipartisan
20:33establishment is saturated uh you know
20:36by this something that is not just wrong
20:40but evil. And you not only do you see
20:44the truth, but actually your identity
20:48makes you someone who could be a
20:49powerful messenger of this truth from
20:54the wider world. You know, it's
20:56something kind of amazing to me. So when
20:57you look at how many of the important
21:00leading intellectual figures in this new
21:02far left, Zora Mandani himself said that
21:04he came to socialist politics out of his
21:07opposition to Israel. Israel is an
21:10apartheid state. Um, that's interesting
21:14and he's not alone. Then you look at
21:15Darisa Vila Shiovalier, that young woman
21:18of Dominican origin, you know, grew up
21:20in a, you know, middle class family in
21:22Florida. You know, the fact that she
21:25comes to Colombia, then she goes to the
21:27CUNI Graduate Center, she converts to
21:29Islam after 107.
21:33You know, this is really interesting.
21:35And again, I'm someone who sees uh you
21:37know, I'm not as learned as you, Haviv,
21:39but I see the beauty in the Islamic
21:40tradition. Um you know, this is
21:42something that's been uh important to me
21:44if in a kind of untutoed kind of way.
21:47But um you know, that to me is
21:49interesting. You know, there are a lot
21:50of reasons to convers
21:54to do it. But when you do it because you
21:56were in an organizer of encampments, you
21:58know, you do it because your romantic
22:01partner uh is this person who is
22:02Oradani's kind of this metaphorical
22:05older brother. Uh this person who was
22:07steeped in radical politics for a very
22:08long. It's just interesting for that to
22:10be the entry point for you, that to be
22:12the conversion experience where um a
22:15religion is suffused with a kind of
22:19radical politics. Um and again, that's
22:23not everyone's experience. I I think
22:25it's a minority experience, but it's a
22:28minority experience that has a lot of
22:29momentum and weight and attraction for a
22:33certain kind of person.
22:34>> Well, this this is the question. Is it
22:36the future in one way or another? Not
22:39she, by the way, is is for the DSA a
22:41radical, right? But is this is this um I
22:45I grew up uh I I was, you know, raised
22:48in on the on the rabbitic tradition.
22:50What you teach your kids is what the
22:52future is.
22:54And the idea that universities can be
22:56treated as this place that can totally
22:58just radicalize into nonsensical
23:00bigotries, that's a bigotry. If there's
23:02a field of human experience you can't
23:04teach because it's inappropriate, it it
23:07it fall it it goes against your moral
23:09sense of the word. That's a bigotry. And
23:12that's okay because universities are
23:13nuts. Universities are silly. Obviously,
23:15not STEM, but you know, humanities and
23:17and and social sciences. And then you
23:19grow up and you get a job and you have
23:21to and that just lackical attitude
23:24toward the university I think has
23:25produced more than the mumanis the
23:28mumani is the most prominent Muslim in
23:31American politics and he's exactly the
23:34product of this and he's leading a kind
23:37of charge on democratic institutions
23:39that the entire democratic establishment
23:41is terrified by. I don't think that, for
23:43example, when Rahm Emanuel came to
23:45Israel just now to give a speech of
23:47critique to the Israelis from a place of
23:50love, but you guys are really screwing
23:51up, right? I don't think he was speaking
23:53to Israelis. No Israelis heard him,
23:55okay? It was not like front page news in
23:57Israel. He was speaking to the
23:59Democrats. And I don't think he's
24:00running for president. I think he's
24:02running for vice president in a ticket
24:04led by an AOC at minimum. And and and
24:08maybe someone more radical than her
24:10potentially. depends how the convention
24:11goes and depends what all the young
24:12people want. And I look at the Yale
24:14youth polls that talk about this massive
24:16radicalization under 25 or under 30.
24:20Is this the future? I don't believe the
24:23future is determined. I don't believe
24:26it's already been written. I believe
24:27that future can change. As of right now,
24:31what I see is a movement with immense
24:35conviction who are running up against
24:38not even a movement, a coalition that
24:41has lost its moral appetite for a
24:44battle, that has lost its confidence.
24:47And that is something that is certainly
24:50an indication that look, this could be
24:52the future. Uh I would be foolish uh to
24:55suggest otherwise. But what I see is an
24:59immense reservoir of potential energy
25:02that could counter this. I'm not seeing
25:05that right now. And what I want to
25:08underscore is that radical movements,
25:13they tend to burn themselves out. They
25:15tend to burn themselves out because of
25:17ferocious infighting. They tend to
25:20capitalize on some moment of discontent.
25:23And then when there's a shaking of the
25:24kaleidoscope, the issues change. Then
25:27oftentimes these movements run out of
25:29steam.
25:31This movement,
25:33if we want to tell the story that it
25:35really is formidable, something really
25:37is different. And I think that there is
25:38a plausible case for that, then it comes
25:42from what you were talking about before.
25:44It comes from the fact that you have a
25:46large number of young people who feel
25:48bereff.
25:50They feel bereff of tradition. They feel
25:53bereft of some thick identity that is
25:55reinforced through real community.
25:59They don't have the obligations of
26:02marriage and childbearing. And when you
26:06don't have that, you have a very big
26:07absence that can be filled. And when
26:10that's being filled by people who are
26:11able to leverage um images
26:15um just a level of media savvy that is
26:19really unusual and really impressive.
26:21Um, you know, you can certainly tell a
26:22story about that. Then I can tell you
26:24the story tactically about incompetence.
26:26I can tell you the story about how
26:28people with this radical orientation can
26:31sometimes be so blustery that it's
26:33repellent to other people. You know what
26:35I mean? They can actually be so dogmatic
26:37that, you know, eventually you grow
26:39exhausted of it. So I So I actually
26:41don't believe that all hope is lost at
26:43all. But you're certainly right that
26:45right now you have a militant movement
26:48that is pushing on an open door. Now my
26:50belief is that you can only beat a story
26:54with a story. You know when you have a
26:56story that is a moral story that is
27:00doing something for people
27:01psychologically and that's an important
27:03component of what we're talking about
27:05here.
27:07I always like to ground you need another
27:09story that is a story that draws you
27:12back into the world of sanity. And I I
27:14see that as a big part of your project
27:16Khadiv. I think there are a lot of
27:18people um there are a lot of Americans
27:20or a lot of American Jews where they're
27:22finding themselves they feel themselves
27:25to be victims of a kind of gaslighting.
27:26They're like what is going on? I know
27:28this to be false but here I am someone
27:31who's just been living my life and I
27:32need the words. I need the vocabulary to
27:35fight against uh opponents who are often
27:38extremely articulate because they know
27:39exactly what their story is. So, I think
27:42um you know, a big part of what you're
27:43doing, a big part of what we try to do
27:45as well is to actually step in to do
27:47that. But again, I I just really am I
27:50keep being drawn to grounding this in
27:52psychology. Um, I think about I remember
27:56reading this article. Um, you know,
27:58there was a reporter who was talking to
27:59a man in his 60s, a Muslim um, taxi
28:03driver, longtime taxi driver who was
28:05talking about how he felt unhappy uh,
28:09just about how unaffordable his life
28:12was, but he felt, you know, I'm living
28:13in a studio apartment. It's incredibly
28:15expensive. You know, I just kind of feel
28:16like and I thought to myself, if you
28:18were that exact person and you had a
28:21daughter and your daughter went to
28:24college and your daughter now has a
28:27life, you know, maybe your daughter is a
28:29a nurse practitioner or a doctor or
28:32something else and she owns a home and
28:35she has a place,
28:37you would be incredibly happy and
28:39satisfied. Uh, and you would feel
28:41blessed if your daughter went to college
28:45and then she became a community
28:47organizer or maybe she went to work for
28:50the city council or maybe she joined the
28:52United Auto Workers when she was a
28:54graduate student at at CUNI or Colombia
28:57or wherever else. And she has been
28:59taught
29:01that the indignities that she suffered
29:04as someone who maybe felt different or
29:06looked different. She's now surrounded
29:08by many other people whose lives are
29:11defined not around a sense of gratitude
29:15for what their parents sacrificed for
29:17them but a sense their parents are also
29:19victims. And then you talk to your
29:21parent as a because you're the
29:22articulate one. You're the one who has
29:24that vocabulary. You're the one who kind
29:26of really understands the world.
29:29you see through the propaganda, you
29:31know, the husb
29:33all of that. You actually know the
29:34truth.
29:36And then your nobility, your
29:40superiority, some could say, um, derives
29:42from your superior clarity of
29:45understanding.
29:46Uh, and you take that clarity of
29:48understanding, that is your resource.
29:50Your resource is not having built a
29:52life. uh in the classic sense
29:56not passing on the baton in that way. I
29:59always joke that Mark Zuckerberg is not
30:01the real hero. Dr. Zuckerberg the
30:03dentist and Dobs Ferry is the real hero.
30:05But you know but you know but people
30:06don't believe that you know because
30:07everyone wants to be the Tik Tok
30:09influencer. You don't want to be the
30:11dentist and Dob's Ferry.
30:13And I think that to me sanity stems from
30:19being wanting to be the dentist and
30:21wanting to kind of get your kid to be
30:22that dentist and actually the great
30:24glory of your life being producing
30:26grandchildren and being someone who you
30:29know you might you may well achieve
30:31recognition but you're grounded in
30:32something and then I think that if
30:34that's not even on the table as a
30:36possibility uh and not even because of
30:39oh the affordab there is an
30:40affordability crisis and I can talk to
30:41you about the affordability crisis all
30:43day wrong, but it's actually what is
30:44your moral imagination about what a life
30:47ought to look like? What are the models
30:48that you've seen? That psychology is
30:52something that matters not just for
30:54immigrants and second generation people,
30:56but I think that that's been an
30:57important dislocating experience that is
31:00a missing part of this bigger story that
31:02you and I are talking about. Uh, look, I
31:04I have like eight questions here about
31:05the American Muslim community, about
31:07Bumani, about things you've written
31:08about Mamani, but I can't avoid the
31:10opportunity to drill down here because I
31:12real places are talking. I don't I don't
31:15know what it I have four kids. I live on
31:18a street where I'm average and my wife
31:23is the oldest of eight. I mean, I can
31:26imagine having a tremendously happy
31:28life, being a deeply creative, world
31:31traveling person, and and you don't want
31:33kids. I can imagine that. But we've seen
31:36a drop. I forget what the numbers were.
31:38The Financial Times had this entire big
31:40deep dive into this question that went
31:42viral, and I read it and it was it's a
31:44drop from 80% of women having kids to
31:4760% of women having kids. You're telling
31:50me that hundreds of millions of women
31:52suddenly didn't want to have kids? And
31:54it's a drop from the 80s. It's not a
31:56drop from, you know, or or a drop from
31:57the 90s. These are not women living in
32:00Victorian England, right? The the
32:02expectations of them were it was it
32:04wasn't a question of feminism. It was
32:06something having to do with screens, I
32:08think, was their main argument. But what
32:10do you what do you think has happened at
32:12the at the scale that it has happened?
32:15And that takes us to all kinds of other
32:16arenas about intimacy and and the
32:19ubiquity of porn, about the differences
32:20between men radicalizing to the right,
32:22women radicalizing to the left, all of
32:24these different phenomenon. I guess give
32:26us the bottom line. How do you interpret
32:28the kind of social changes that you just
32:30said are some way the in the ven diagram
32:34overlap the political changes that we're
32:36talking about? You and I are both
32:39products of a genuinely different world.
32:42You and I are around the same age or a
32:44little bit younger than I am. Um, and my
32:47parents, they came from a world that was
32:52itself dislocated and disrupted in
32:55profound ways. Uh, you know, uh, my
32:58father was born in 39, my mother was
33:00born in 47.
33:03And, uh,
33:06they were very modern people in a way.
33:09They were very literate, curious,
33:11worldly in their interests, but they
33:15were ferociously loyal to each other and
33:18they had a
33:21un, you know, really difficult life. So
33:23much more difficult than anything I can
33:25imagine. Um, but there was
33:30raising children was just life. Uh, and
33:34I just it was life. And they were people
33:38who experienced being people who were of
33:41pretty high status in their native
33:42country to being people of much lower
33:43status in a new country. But it didn't
33:45matter. They didn't experience that as
33:48an injury or an indignity because they
33:50had their project which was survival and
33:54flourishing for their children. And I
33:57just think about that now. You think
33:59about any modern person. Um, I don't
34:01know. It's just they were connected to a
34:04different world that had different
34:05rhythms. They were connected to a world
34:07that again itself had been dislocated a
34:10lot over the 19th and 20th centuries.
34:12But there was a way they could see into
34:14the past. They knew who their ancestors
34:16were in a way that I don't. Um that is
34:19they passed on many beautiful and
34:20wonderful things to me. But that
34:24transmission was incomplete.
34:27And I look at my children. My children
34:30are third generation Americans. Uh my
34:33wife had 120 first cousins. My children
34:37have three cousins.
34:39>> Beats me fine.
34:40>> So my you know they have three first
34:42cousins. So I did not beat you because
34:44>> Okay. No, they did.
34:46>> So yeah.
34:47>> So um that is something I think about
34:51all the time. And you know though I have
34:54a spiritual longing and curiosity
34:57um I don't have the kind of religious
35:00spiritual life that they did as
35:02children. Um and so in a way I think of
35:05it as our generation you and me we grew
35:09up in the shadow of something that we
35:10still could see and we could still
35:12recognize you know because it was still
35:14there but it was attenuating. And then
35:16you think about the people a generation
35:18behind us or even 10 or 15 years behind
35:20us that process of attenuation was even
35:23further along.
35:25So of course smartphones all these
35:27things kind of m are accelerants but I
35:29think the big thing is when you disown
35:31your inheritance and I I I hate to think
35:34of myself I I don't believe I've
35:36disowned my inheritance. I don't believe
35:38that. I don't want to believe that. But
35:40that is the great weapon of a certain
35:43kind of this politics that you and I are
35:46talking about this kind of call it third
35:48worldist politics you know this vision
35:51because what it takes is that absence
35:54and that sense of injury or something
35:56missing that you have but it says that
36:00but you don't have to be disloyal
36:02because to be loyal is to be an
36:04anti-imperialist
36:06so imagine that I was taking this fact
36:09this. I'm incredibly fortunate and happy
36:13and I love my life and I love my family,
36:15but if you were to put a gun to my head
36:17and say, do you feel like there's
36:18something lost? You know, do I miss my
36:20father every single day and do I miss
36:22the world that he left behind that he
36:23had to leave behind? Uh, yes. And there
36:26is a sense of I'm an American. I am a
36:29very for my sins. I'm an American. I'm a
36:32very assimilated, some would say
36:33dassinated American. I speak my parents
36:36native language. I I love it. I cherish
36:38it. But I'm an American. And so there
36:41can be this feeling, you know, Norman
36:43Pador called um assimilation a brutal
36:46bargain. There's something I've gained
36:48and there's something I've given up.
36:49What if I could tell you that there's a
36:52way to be loyal to that and the way to
36:55be loyal is to embrace ideas that are
36:58hostile to American imperialism. That or
37:01or really just have it be Gaza. Gaza is
37:04a standin. you know, there's this
37:06narcissism
37:08uh I want to be charitable. I struggle
37:10with this sometimes, but um you know
37:12there was a wonderful piece uh that um
37:15Mati Freriedman wrote on Gazology, you
37:18know, for the free press some months
37:19ago, and I thought it was just so
37:20brilliant because he's talking about
37:21these books that are ostensibly about
37:23Gaza and ostensively about the supposed
37:25genocide in Gaza that are actually just
37:26naval gazing by an award-winning
37:29Egyptian Canadian writer just looking at
37:32um him looking at his phone, scrolling
37:34through, but also some person committing
37:36a microaggression against him or asking
37:38him where he's from or something like
37:40that and the kind of deep anger and
37:42hatred. So in a way this projection this
37:47kind of obsession with the war that you
37:49cannot even begin to understand um then
37:52becomes this kind of substitute for
37:56who am I you know no I am not disowning
37:59the past even though I have only a very
38:01tenuous connection to it I am filling
38:04that absence with this readymade
38:10cult this readymade ideology ology that
38:13actually gives me a there's this term
38:16from the study of the sociology of
38:18violence of writing forward panic.
38:21Forward panic. Someone's already on the
38:23ground and other people are kicking
38:24them. Then you just rush in and you kick
38:26them too. You kick that person on the
38:28ground and the sense of joy and
38:30effervescence that you derive from that.
38:33you know, the ways in which Brad Lander,
38:36a gentleman who is a Democratic nominee
38:38for Congress, um someone who described
38:41himself as a liberal Zionist, a
38:42progressive Zionist, you know, said
38:44that, you know, he used to say that um
38:46uh Israel's war of survival was not a
38:49genocide. Now he says it's a genocide.
38:50Why? Well, because his daughter, a
38:52recent graduate of the University of
38:53Chicago, had read Raphael Lmin and
38:55explained to him. Now, it happens that
38:56the explanation happened at exactly the
38:58right time for him to kind of be buoied
39:01by this new political movement that he's
39:02seeking to gain the favor of. But I
39:04thought it was so interesting. Um,
39:07>> sometimes the timing works out. What are
39:08you going to do? For
39:09>> forward panic, forward panic. You know,
39:12then everyone is moving in this
39:13direction and then I can litigate this
39:16and I can say, well, I believe that
39:18Israel is a death machine warrior, you
39:20know, kind of, but it's not a genocide.
39:22Well, forward panic. Then for
39:27um these people I'm describing first of
39:29all they have a story about me. Their
39:31story about me is very obvious if their
39:34story about me is that um you know I get
39:36dassinated or also I'm seeking the favor
39:39of white America or the Jews or you name
39:42it. And um it's a very powerful story.
39:46Uh and you know it's one of these these
39:48other things where you know I the story
39:50is that I am damaged in various ways and
39:52that I cannot see the truth. I cannot
39:54see what um so we all tell the story.
39:57I'm going to tell the story about how
39:58they're psychologically damaged. They'll
39:59tell the story about how I'm
40:00psychologically damaged. But what I will
40:02tell you is that
40:04I
40:06believe that there's something very
40:08precious and special about this country.
40:10Um my country, America, and from my
40:16I have been around the Israel debate
40:18pretty much my entire adult life. I
40:21remember being an undergraduate student
40:23in college and seeing this extremely
40:24articulate young man wearing a kipah
40:27arguing with a less articulate woman uh
40:31and the woman was taking the pro-Israel
40:33side, the young man was taking the
40:34anti-Israel side. And I remember
40:35thinking I just thought I'm going to
40:37step into this argument. You know, I
40:39just I think there's something that made
40:41me feel as though
40:44I don't know. It's some it's this
40:46reading of history or something like
40:47that. But I think that for many decades
40:50at this point, I've seen this unfold.
40:52I've seen this happen. And it's funny to
40:54me when I see people um project onto me
40:57their view of kind of why it is I have
40:59the convictions that I do. But, you
41:01know, it's partly because I understand
41:02the power of that feeling of absence.
41:05And I understand how susceptible one is
41:07to having that filled with a story that
41:10feels enobbling, but that I can actually
41:12do profound damage um to these
41:15institutions that I love, this country
41:17that I love. And u so anyway, I mean, we
41:20all are have our experiences. You know
41:22what I mean?
41:24>> It's astonishing to me how much
41:25authenticity is part of this American
41:28political moment. Uh many years ago I
41:30read a a um movie critic, it might have
41:33been Roger Eert, who wrote a piece about
41:36the Matrix trilogy, and he noted, among
41:38other things, um he noted that all of
41:41the dancers, the humans dancing in the
41:44city of Zion are brown or black. There
41:47are no white people in Zion, except for
41:49of course the white savior Neo, right?
41:51But there are no white people in Zion.
41:53Um, and people are going to write to me
41:54that that's technically incorrect for
41:56some reason. But the point is, um, that
41:58is Hollywood code, cultural code for
42:01authenticity. I I agree with you. I I
42:03feel it. I see it. These kids wearing
42:06kafas. Why would a kafia be a symbol? Do
42:08you even know like how that right P but
42:10it was turned into this kind of signal
42:13of belonging and authenticity that Yes.
42:15>> There's there's so much more to say
42:17about this. I want to get uh back on
42:19topic and uh and uh focus us in. Um you
42:22mentioned that uh there's a the
42:25phenomenon of second generation Muslim
42:27immigrants and I want to use that as
42:29sort of an opening book to understand
42:30the Madani phenomenon because he is
42:32partly in part of that he himself is an
42:35immigrant uh
42:36>> yes
42:37>> but but he's in a
42:38>> but part of this world of highly
42:39assimilated Exactly. Exactly. They call
42:41it the 1.5 generation. Yeah.
42:43>> Right. and um who are religiously
42:46secular
42:48and politically deeply Muslim in their
42:51political identity which is an
42:53interesting combination um because
42:55Muslim is is is is coded in their in
42:58their world view as exactly the way you
43:00described as this political entity. Can
43:02you um can you explain who are these
43:05people? What is this group? What is
43:06their role in these politics? How big is
43:08this phenomenon? How much do you
43:10attribute that to uh to the moment? So
43:12many of them seem to belong to this
43:14world. Abdullah Sahed from uh from
43:16Michigan. Um what is this phenomenon?
43:19How can you uh describe it for us?
43:22>> I want to be very careful because this
43:24is a phenomenon where we do not have
43:27quantitative data. Exactly. We have some
43:30as I was suggesting to you before you
43:31have some quantitative data about the
43:32sheer youth of this population. How many
43:35of them are in post-secary education
43:37right now? Um, so you know, you can look
43:40at those larger demographic
43:42characteristics to tell the story, but I
43:43still think of it think of this as just
43:47one man's experience from from being a
43:49part of this world, traveling through
43:51this world.
43:53Uh,
43:55so the Muslim population is the most
43:58racially and ethnic diverse religious
44:00population in the country. It has many
44:02different pieces to it. there is a
44:05multigenerational black population
44:08converts to Islam. Then of course you
44:10have um African immigrants and their
44:12descendants and you have South Asian
44:14immigrants and their descendants. You of
44:16course have um Arabs, you know, people
44:19from uh the Middle East itself. And it's
44:21interesting because there is a kind of
44:22hierarchy. Um you know when you look at
44:25um ISIS the Islamic State um the um
44:29European Muslims uh the and Arabs were
44:32higher on the hierarchy the Bengali
44:35Muslims who came were the cannon fodder
44:37but you know that's a separate issue
44:38then if you look at this kind of
44:39political world it's not that crude but
44:42there's a way in which to be a Nakaba
44:45survivor you know to be a Palestinian
44:48you of Palestinian origin itself does
44:50have this incredible moral authority so
44:52there's a way in there's a hierarchy
44:53there in which you're at the top then
44:56you know this kind of like broader you
44:58know Muslim group then there's a broader
45:00universe of you know brown people you
45:02know just you know people who can kind
45:04of plausibly have some connection do you
45:06have some narrative of being a survival
45:07of imperialist aggression I'm being a
45:09little cute and simplistic here but I do
45:11think that there's something there now
45:14if you're looking at the south Asian
45:16population you know and again this is a
45:18very variegated population um there is
45:21an affluent Muslim Muslim population,
45:22but there's also a very poor
45:24working-class Muslim population. Uh the
45:26community that I come from, the
45:27Bangladeshi uh origin population, this
45:30is a pretty working-class lower
45:32middle-ass population. There's also a
45:34kind of, you know, more affluent
45:36professional segment, but relative to
45:38Indian uh Americans, it is a less
45:40affluent population. Indian-Americans
45:42are the most affluent uh nationality
45:46group. It is a triple selected group.
45:49You know, it is a group that when
45:50you're, you know, long story here, but
45:52you know, if you look at this population
45:54has really been transformed by the H1B
45:57visa and but through selective
45:59migration. Now, most of those people are
46:02non-Muslims, but
46:05Indian-Americans have become a really
46:08fascinatingly important group
46:10politically, intellectually,
46:12ideologically because this group is so
46:15disproportionately represented in the
46:17young American elite. I'm not talking
46:19about the people, you know, who are, you
46:21know, over 60. I'm talking about the
46:23American elite of people, call it under
46:2640, if you're on an Ivy League campus,
46:28if you're at Yale law school, uh
46:30certainly if you're in the kind of banks
46:32and tech firms, but also really in this
46:34kind of academic ideological world, um
46:37it's a group that is really
46:38disproportionately influential. And
46:40again, there's a ven diagram. Some of
46:42those people are of Muslim origin, some
46:44of them are not. But the larger turn of
46:47this Indian-American population um the
46:51ways in which they've contributed to
46:52replenished energize the left with their
46:55intellectual capital is in some ways
46:57akin to the Jewish role in shaping the
47:01American left- which you're intimately
47:03familiar with. U it's different. The
47:05analogy breaks down in all sorts of
47:07ways.
47:08lay out this analogy you've written
47:10>> by the way making this analogy I read in
47:13your uh you wrote an essay uh your essay
47:17>> uh that was mind-blowing for me um make
47:20the analogy because you also draw
47:21conclusions from it in other words take
47:23the radicalism with a grain of salt this
47:25happened to the Jews show up in America
47:26and you know most of the Jews go off to
47:28work but some of the Jews become the
47:30communist agitators of America but it's
47:32okay they're all their kids are all
47:34middle class doctors and lawyers or what
47:35I'm I'm obviously you know as you said
47:37being cute about it, but can you make
47:39the analogy so people really understand
47:41both the Muslim current phenomenon and
47:43the
47:43>> I will what I want to but I also want to
47:46say this there's a tendency that you and
47:48I both because of what we care about so
47:51deeply that we're going to catastrophize
47:53and I can do that all day long you know
47:55what I mean because I will tell you to
47:57be alarmed and actually to some degree
47:59the people that I work with are some of
48:00the most brilliant tenacious people in
48:02the world and they're we're alarmed
48:03together so sometimes I want to take a
48:06breath and I want And I just kind of
48:07because being too alarmed can be
48:10innervating, can be demobilizing, can be
48:13demotivating to some degree. I actually
48:15believe that the the radicals we are
48:17facing, they want to demoralize their
48:20opponents. That is us. So we have to be
48:23mindful. We both want people to be awake
48:25and aware, but we don't want to
48:26demoralize them. So to the analogy,
48:29you know, honestly listen to earlier
48:32episodes of ask of anything, but I mean
48:34if you look at the history of American
48:36jewelry that this kind of unique
48:38diaspora population, a big part of that
48:40is that you know you've had you know
48:42Jews for centuries in this country but
48:45then you had this massive wave of people
48:47fleeing pagomes and
48:50experiencing deep poverty and then in
48:54the next generation some upward mobility
48:56but also some openness. This was a
48:59cosmopolitan population at a time when
49:00ideas were going back and forth across
49:02the Atlantic. And you know, you have a
49:04sense um these are people who do have a
49:08religious and spiritual tradition that
49:11teaches them to do something larger than
49:13yourself. And if you're not becoming a
49:14rabbi, looking at the grave injustices
49:17of segregation or looking at kind of
49:19this world unfolding around you, looking
49:21at labor strife, you know, there's a way
49:24in which some of that Jewish
49:25intellectual energy was channeled toward
49:28fighting this injustice right in front
49:30of your face. There were of course the
49:32other people we don't hear about who are
49:33the people like hey actually rather this
49:36than you know be in the pale of
49:37settlement right now. rather this than
49:38being in Odessa right now and actually
49:40there's something we can work with and
49:41do and and there's an intersection
49:42between those two worlds. There are the
49:44people who are the people who were
49:46humbly building a business but then
49:48supporting causes that mattered and
49:50doing things that were beautiful and
49:51noble and and then they're the people at
49:53the edge of that and they're the people
49:55who became utopians and they're the
49:58people who were not necessarily revering
50:00the founding generation of this country
50:02but rather seeing them as yet another
50:05corrupt structure seeking to um
50:10indoctrinate uh you know kind of in in
50:12defense of the interest of capital. So
50:16then you have this kind of crazy crazy
50:19intersection. Um you have the Holocaust,
50:24you have the Second World War that was a
50:26kind of inoculation against a certain
50:29kind of antise-semitism. Of course there
50:30was casual anti-semitism, but a certain
50:32kind of anti-semitism as a politics, as
50:35a vigorous majority politics.
50:38The country was to some degree
50:40inoculated against that in the cold war
50:42era. At the same time, the country
50:45ferociously turned against communism and
50:47radicalism. Now, you know what I'm
50:49driving at? There's a different world in
50:52which you could have had a ferocious
50:54anti-communism that was also
50:56anti-Judaism, anti-semitism,
50:58anti-ionism.
50:59It could have been that. So actually
51:01when we think about the golden age of
51:04American jewelry, when we think about
51:05the the what America achieved after the
51:09second world war, it was such an
51:12accident. It was such an accident that
51:14it happened. And you think about the
51:16central role that American jewelry
51:17played in that renewal and that process
51:20of becoming more inclusive and becoming
51:24realizing so many of our ideals. So some
51:26of that utopian energy you could say was
51:29sublimated or it changed and it became
51:31utopian. It was less utopian. It was a
51:34kind of less romantic but no less
51:36energetic uh phenomenon that became
51:40a beautiful foundation for what this
51:43country became.
51:45And when I look at this moment right
51:48now, so one story that you know my smart
51:50I have a very smart friend who tells me
51:52well Ryhan you know you're exaggerating
51:54with that you know yes the South Asians
51:55you they're all becoming radicals but
51:58also everything is faster now so that
52:01the process of them becoming benal
52:03bourgeoa you know people will just
52:05happen faster and you know kind of
52:07you're being unduly alarmist and maybe
52:09that's true but you know I think that
52:11the world that we're in today the world
52:14that we're approaching it does feel
52:15different from the 50s. The demographic
52:17context as you've observed is really
52:19different. You know that process of what
52:22are you assimilating to? Assimilation is
52:25happening but what are you assimilating
52:27to? What are those ideas as you
52:29dassinate? As you deculturate,
52:32what is filling that vacuum right now?
52:36So, you know what I see is uh with this
52:39population I'm describing to you, a
52:41population that has become affluent much
52:43faster. You know, it's kind of like you
52:45immediately move to a suburb. You
52:47immediately, you know, kind of you're
52:48not in the Lower East Side, you know, as
52:51a peddler. You're not pushing a cart,
52:52you know what I mean? You're not living
52:54seven to a room, you know, on Orchard
52:56Street, you know, you're kind of there
52:58in that world. And then you're taught
53:01that whatever feeling of alienation you
53:04have or marginality that you have,
53:06you're implicitly taught that this is a
53:08resource to be mind. if you were a
53:11Jewish garment worker, you know, kind
53:13of, you know, that was not necessarily
53:15leverage for you to get into Harvard.
53:17Harvard didn't want you there, you know,
53:19kind of uh so, you know, in a way that
53:22experience of upper mobility was an
53:24experience of mutual aid and building
53:26your own thing and and then if you were
53:28left it was survival. Today that's not
53:30exactly the case. Today, you can penet
53:33you're not penetrating, you're kind of
53:34welcome. You know, these elite
53:36institutions want you there and they
53:38want you to bring your grievance and
53:40victimhood as a story and as a resource.
53:42Imagine if you were coming from Odessa
53:44and you arrive in the Lower East Side
53:46and then suddenly there's a group of,
53:48you know, wasps. Oh my. Tell us more
53:50about what happened there. Oh gosh,
53:52we're going to give you a fellowship.
53:54We're going to give you a grant to
53:55describe your Jewish victimhood.
53:58Yeah, it's a different kind of world.
54:00Again, I'm being cute and I know there's
54:02so much more to it. And by the way,
54:04there are people
54:06There are absolutely American Muslims
54:08growing up in poverty. Uh and but then
54:10again, what is your path to upward
54:12mobility? If you're a Bengali u Muslim
54:15growing up um in a working-class lower
54:18middle-ass family in Queens, but then
54:20you kind of go to college, your upward
54:22mobility, maybe it's going to Baroo and
54:24maybe it's kind of getting an accounting
54:26degree and kind of doing all of that.
54:28But there's another path right now which
54:30is this political path which by the way
54:33can be a lot more fun
54:36because it's something where again you
54:38know you're not the rabbi you're not
54:39celebrated for you know kind of your um
54:42you know deep learning and but you're
54:46celebrated you're on the front lines
54:49you're part of something that is filling
54:51that vacuum. Um so I think that that
54:53intersection um between what is high
54:56status, what is prestigious, what do you
54:58chase, you know, there's so many
54:59functioning communities, you and I know
55:01where it's kind of like, yeah, you know,
55:02you want the rabbi to come to your house
55:04for dinner. You know, you kind of want
55:06to kind of be there. You want to be
55:07someone who is a builder and a
55:08sustainer. Think about the people
55:11that you and I love. You know what I
55:13mean? Just kind of like who are builders
55:14and sustainers. People who've achieved
55:16great things, but they're they don't
55:18want to be famous, but they do support.
55:21What if you could short circuit that?
55:23What if you could fast forward to get to
55:25that esteem faster? Um, I think that
55:28that's part of what's going on.
55:30>> It's a it's it's an amazing matrix of
55:32interests and incentives and you see it,
55:35you know, once you see it, you can't
55:37unsee it. But I mean so many of these um
55:39you know brown quote unquote uh
55:41candidates who very their identity is
55:44front and center in their campaigns then
55:46you dig in and you find out as you said
55:48about I forget her name because it's
55:50complex and that's not fair. I was
55:52>> Dora Aisa okay um who is a who you know
55:58middle class and grew up in America.
56:00She's not the story that she is
56:02representative of to highly educated
56:06white voters who who are, you know, a
56:08big part of of the voter base.
56:10>> One thing I want to say about
56:11>> on the other side too, Graham Platner
56:13being the poor oyster of the
56:14working-class oyster farmer and then
56:16turning out not to be so workingass and
56:17not to be an oyster farmer.
56:19>> And even even JD Vance, right, in a
56:22slightly different context, JD Vance
56:24didn't grow up a hillbilly. So there's
56:26so much cache across the political aisle
56:29from from needing that leg up from
56:32having that moral authority. It's an
56:34astonishing astonishing reality of
56:36America right now.
56:37>> Well, so you know I'm just struck by
56:40this and again because I um I
56:42experienced this because of you know
56:44when I grew up.
56:45>> So you know in the case of JD what I
56:47will say is that he did grow up in a
56:50middle class family but that was
56:52chaotic. you know there was there really
56:54was chaos there and if you look at
56:56Shiovala I don't know everything about
56:58her family her upbringing but it's
57:01striking when you look at the thing she
57:03was writing when she was a woman in her
57:05mid late 20s
57:08it's just fascinating so when she was
57:11running in this primary at the very end
57:13of the primary
57:15Mayor Mandani went out and was focusing
57:18on one issue the claim that there were
57:21racist attacks
57:23against Shioalier from people in the
57:25Dominican community who are calling her
57:27Haitian. This is really it's an
57:29interesting story. This sounds like a
57:30minor thing, but I want to explain why
57:32this matters. So, basically, when she
57:35was a young woman, she had said things
57:37about how I want to, you know, wouldn't
57:39it be amazing if Haiti and the Dominican
57:40Republic, there was instead a socialist
57:42black indigenous republic called Kiskia
57:45that was kind of ruling that island. Now
57:47there are many Dominicans who are
57:49including naturalized citizens of the
57:50United States but people of Dominican
57:51origin who are very patriotic, very
57:53devoted and the Dominican Republic and
57:55Haiti have a fraught relationship. The
57:56Dominican Republic is very heavily um
57:59you know it's mixed race but there is
58:02absolutely a very heavily dark-skinned
58:03black component. You know African
58:05descended component to that population
58:07and even for that population there's a
58:09resistance to Haiti and this sense of
58:10Haitian interlopers and what have you.
58:12It's an ugly politics the way that
58:13politics can be ugly all over the world,
58:15including here in the United States. But
58:18it was fascinating to me because there
58:20were many things being said. There are
58:22also many scary things being said about
58:24her opponent that I would claim are
58:26anti-Semitic or racist or really
58:29alarming. But it was amazing that at the
58:32end of the campaign, it wasn't, well,
58:34she has the better stance on the issues
58:36or what have you or like no, she's the
58:37one who has the intelligence and wisdom
58:39to be in this role. The pitch for her
58:43was that she was a victim of racism and
58:46bigotry and chauvinism. Even Aspiad was
58:49actually like he didn't he never said
58:51these things but he was apologizing.
58:52You're like you know there are people
58:53that are over.
58:55He wasn't saying it. There were some
58:57other people saying it and that was a
59:00resource to be mined. It's kind of like
59:02you're you're you're digging for gold.
59:04You know what I mean? you're mining that
59:06where can I It's kind of like this idea
59:08that if there's not a big enough supply
59:10of racism to meet the demand for racism,
59:12you got to find new racism. Then Zionism
59:15has to be racism or kind of you know
59:16what it just kind of it has to spread.
59:18It has to become microaggressions. You
59:20have and then the genius of this
59:23political vision is that it means you
59:25can always antie up if you and I are
59:29polite people. But actually what I've
59:31learned and the reason why I came to my
59:34job and why I love Manhattan Institute
59:36and I love the people that I work with
59:37is that I realized a certain point that
59:39actually there are times when you need
59:41to say enough is enough and you need to
59:43be able to do that and that requires
59:45having some backbone. And again for me
59:47as a consiliatory person um sometimes
59:51you are really easily rolled, you're
59:54really easily manipulated by anyone who
59:56says that they're offended by anyone who
59:58leverages that authenticity, that moral
1:00:01authority that we're talking about. It
1:00:03becomes this incredibly powerful weapon
1:00:05that you can use. So it's kind of like
1:00:06you have an arsenal. Sometimes you're
1:00:08just aggressive and you harass and
1:00:10intimidate, but then sometimes you're
1:00:13the victim. You know, every single time
1:00:15I mention anti-semitism, I have to
1:00:17mention Islamophobia.
1:00:19Anti-Palestinian racism is the new term
1:00:21that's being used. And then basically,
1:00:24you make anti-Palestinian racism so
1:00:27capacious a category that it includes
1:00:30trying to give an honest accounting of
1:00:32the history of the Middle East uh from
1:00:341948 on or from, you know, the 1890s on.
1:00:39Giving some attempt to give an honest
1:00:41accounting then gets redefined as
1:00:43racism.
1:00:44It's actually quite fascinating and
1:00:47incredibly effective because again the
1:00:50kind of whole the audience for this is
1:00:51people who are there's an absence.
1:00:54They're kind of able to be persuaded by
1:00:56it. And so you know I think that victim
1:00:58narrative you're describing it's not
1:01:00it's it's a political tactic but it's so
1:01:02much more. It's a way of bending how we
1:01:04see the world and make sense of the
1:01:06world. Um and the only way to counter it
1:01:09is to know history. And that's obviously
1:01:11a tall order. I want to get back to the
1:01:13Muslim community in the United States
1:01:14and understanding a little bit better
1:01:17the the the political phenomenon as it's
1:01:19rooted in that Muslim community. In that
1:01:21super article, which I highly recommend
1:01:23people read, it is a fantastic jumping
1:01:25off point looking at some of these
1:01:26issues, you distinguish between two
1:01:28dangers within the Muslim community that
1:01:31the Muslim community itself in polling
1:01:33of the Muslim community sees inside
1:01:34itself and and talks about. um one of
1:01:37them at least is the rise of radical
1:01:40Islamic you know Islamism as we call it
1:01:42radical Islamic ideologies um coming
1:01:45into the Muslim community and you
1:01:47suggest that you know some solutions
1:01:49need to be found for this a little bit
1:01:50better vetting and immigration some
1:01:52questions of law enforcement education
1:01:54etc and then you say the larger
1:01:57long-term threat is what you describe as
1:02:01uh third worldism and we've used the
1:02:03term I've used it you've used it Um,
1:02:07and we've we've covered a lot of this
1:02:08ground, but give us what is that? What
1:02:12what are those two things? The more
1:02:14academic sounding one is the more
1:02:15dangerous than the threat of violent
1:02:17radicalism. Um, what is that third
1:02:20worldism and how widespread is it in the
1:02:22Muslim community?
1:02:23>> First, I definitely don't want to
1:02:24discount the threat of jihadi violence
1:02:26of Islamism. I think it's real. However,
1:02:29I also felt that that was not where I
1:02:30could make a a unique contribution. And
1:02:32I also genuinely believe that that is
1:02:33more of a minority phenomenon
1:02:35fundamentally in the American Muslim
1:02:37community. Um, and it's something that
1:02:39is to some is necessarily limited to
1:02:42Muslims. Third worldism is a phenomenon
1:02:47that like communism, socialism,
1:02:50anarchism is potentially something that
1:02:53can draw in anyone. but where um there's
1:02:56a group of highly assimilated American
1:02:59Muslims who bit a powerful vector of
1:03:02this phenomenon.
1:03:03So, you know, I'm using the term really
1:03:06inspired by Zanb Rubois, a scholar at
1:03:08Hudson Institute who's brilliant,
1:03:10wonderful, and she was drawing on this
1:03:12older intellectual tradition that you
1:03:13and I are both familiar with. If you
1:03:15study the PLO, but also if you study the
1:03:17new left movements, you know, this
1:03:19romanticization of the anti-colonial
1:03:22liberation struggles of that era, um,
1:03:26you know, it was a new mode for a kind
1:03:29of left-wing politics where it was not
1:03:34classic Marxism, but it was taking this
1:03:36racialized struggle between the global
1:03:39south and the global north and making it
1:03:42this
1:03:44central morality play for understanding
1:03:48the world. And what's interesting about
1:03:50it, Haviv, is that it's not something
1:03:53that is just attractive and magnetic for
1:03:56American Muslims. It's attractive and
1:03:57magnetic for young American Jews. You
1:04:00know, the kind of I, you know, some of
1:04:02my friends and I joke that what we see
1:04:04is a civil war among American Jews
1:04:06between Jews who like their parents and
1:04:07Jews who hate their parents. But you
1:04:09know I think that this third worldist
1:04:11ideology is something that is very
1:04:13magnetic to a wide array of people. And
1:04:15then there are some people including you
1:04:17know our friends at tablet who say that
1:04:18no third worldism it's not that's it's
1:04:20communism you know there are other
1:04:22people say it's this and it's that um
1:04:24you know but I I find the word third
1:04:25worldism useful because
1:04:29it's that idea of baptismal
1:04:31revolutionary violence you know settler
1:04:34colonialism. Adam Kirch wrote a
1:04:36beautiful short book on settler
1:04:37colonialism. You know these ideas began
1:04:40in Australia and then traveled um to
1:04:43Canada, made their way to the United
1:04:44States and the American Academy about
1:04:47you know indigenous people and the
1:04:48fundamental injustice of the disposition
1:04:51of these lands and the idea that you
1:04:53know these states are not legitimate.
1:04:55They are settler colonial entities that
1:04:58are fundamentally predatory and this is
1:05:00a way to understand these societies.
1:05:01Then Israel became the locus of this.
1:05:04But the thing about Israel is that
1:05:05Israel, one can imagine it actually
1:05:07being destroyed and actually there is
1:05:10real everyday violence that's happening
1:05:13that then you can fetishize and
1:05:15celebrate and identify with. Um so third
1:05:18worldism you know um there you know one
1:05:23related term is the idea of campism. you
1:05:25know, why do why would leftists, you
1:05:28know, be for Iran and why would the Dar
1:05:33Chaveilier was arguing that uh Russia
1:05:35was bullied into invading Ukraine? Why
1:05:37would they be pro Putin? And then, you
1:05:39know, China engages in more labor
1:05:42repression than any other state in the
1:05:44world. You know, they um they oppose
1:05:47building a welfare. I mean, China is
1:05:49communist, but they're not terribly
1:05:51they're not Danish social democrats.
1:05:54Exactly. So why are these the regimes
1:05:56that they celebrate? Well, because part
1:05:58of the third worldist ethic, it's
1:06:00campism. America is the leader of the
1:06:04imperialist camp. Israel is its junior
1:06:07partner or maybe it's its senior
1:06:10partner. Who knows? Depending on which
1:06:11brand of this ideology you believe, they
1:06:14need to be opposed uh or destroyed or
1:06:17subverted from within or kind of what
1:06:19have you.
1:06:20Uh and so any opponent of American
1:06:24imperialism is then the good guy. And by
1:06:27the way, you know, there is this element
1:06:29of third worldist ideas. How what is the
1:06:33nexus between them and foreign actors?
1:06:36There's a transnational character to
1:06:37this. Of course there is because again
1:06:39it's it's a worldview that's not really
1:06:40about we honor our founding fathers, you
1:06:43know, this kind of thing. like oh like
1:06:44we are going to look in an American you
1:06:47know I mean Zora Mandani gave a speech
1:06:49in the 4th of July but you know if you
1:06:51look at his inaugural address you look
1:06:52at this tradition they come from these
1:06:54are not people who romanticize America
1:06:55and that's not a crime by the way it's a
1:06:57free country but their worldview is
1:06:59transnational in character and that
1:07:02third worldest idea for all the reasons
1:07:04you and I have been talking about is
1:07:06very magnetically attractive to a
1:07:09certain kind of young
1:07:10intellectuallyincclined person who has
1:07:13something missing
1:07:14And it's something that really can grow.
1:07:17>> What fascinates me uh that I draw from
1:07:19your writings analytically is the extent
1:07:22to which political Muslim just to tie
1:07:25some of the strands together um
1:07:27religiously secular politically Muslim.
1:07:29what politically Muslim means and all of
1:07:32these layers of authenticity and all of
1:07:34these questions of identity and all of
1:07:36this hunger and yearning in a young
1:07:38population that for all these different
1:07:40reasons is less likely to marry, less
1:07:43likely to settle down, less likely to
1:07:44have access to a home and a great career
1:07:47and and you've written about what many
1:07:49scholars have written about all of this
1:07:51problem of um elite overp production.
1:07:53There are too many people with too much
1:07:54education. What are they going to do
1:07:56with that educ? What is the education if
1:07:58it's if it's massively costly in terms
1:07:59of debt but doesn't actually provide you
1:08:01the life that it claimed to provide you?
1:08:03What do you do now? You kind of become a
1:08:05radical that wants to overturn the
1:08:06system. you're more like slightly more
1:08:08likely to become what fascinates me is
1:08:11the the way in which religiously secular
1:08:16politically Muslim identity of the Zoran
1:08:19Madami type has come to almost
1:08:23this is with a question mark almost
1:08:25identify almost be identical to be
1:08:28cerminous with this third worldist you
1:08:31know um Muslim identity as a symbol of
1:08:36um oppression as a symbol of resistance
1:08:39to westernness or whiteness. It's all
1:08:41coded racially. It borrows from that
1:08:43debate in America. Um that to me is a
1:08:47fascinating thing. Um am I getting that
1:08:50right? Is that is is that your analysis
1:08:52or is that something I'm concluding?
1:08:54>> Fundamentally um this is work that
1:08:58requires ethnography that requires a
1:09:01real textured understanding. So yes,
1:09:04that is what I see. And I want to be
1:09:07very clear what you and I are both
1:09:09talking about. You're talking about
1:09:11minorities of people who have
1:09:13disproportionate weight and influence in
1:09:15our culture. You know, we know how this
1:09:17works. Do I believe
1:09:20but yes, if I'm just going to be blunt
1:09:23about it, yes, that is what I see. And
1:09:26the reason one reason I see this is that
1:09:29you know think about European Muslims
1:09:30now for since 911 and even before that
1:09:34there has been this idea we need to find
1:09:36the moderate Muslims. Where do we find
1:09:37the moderate Muslims? And part of the
1:09:40challenge is that what you know in
1:09:43America you know at a different time and
1:09:46place you saw the rise of the reform
1:09:47movement in Judaism. You know, it was an
1:09:49idea that you're going to have the
1:09:50continuity, you're going to have
1:09:51peoplehood, but we're going to create uh
1:09:54Judaism that is almost like a Protestant
1:09:56denomination, but drawing on the Jewish
1:09:58tradition. We're in a different world
1:10:00that's a much more secular world. And
1:10:02you know, you think about the timelines
1:10:04and you think about the demography.
1:10:06There's no one who created reform Islam.
1:10:09You know, there doesn't really exist.
1:10:12What you see is a global world uh where
1:10:16you have WhatsApp and you had you have
1:10:18these kind of currents that travel from
1:10:19one place to another. You have some
1:10:21immigrant Muslims who have mosques that
1:10:24are immigrant mosques that are that
1:10:27world and that maybe survives the second
1:10:30generation but probably not or is
1:10:32sustained by replenishment and what have
1:10:34you. And you know maybe in the second
1:10:35generation it's there and um you know
1:10:39you see
1:10:41this so so you do have observance but
1:10:43that thing that we mentioned is the
1:10:45reformed Judaism of Islam isn't really
1:10:48there. If it's there it is going to be a
1:10:51more austere religious practice that is
1:10:54that kind of Arabized vision of what
1:10:56Islam is that spread throughout the
1:10:58Muslim world. you know, in the kind of
1:11:00post7s world when that oil money was put
1:11:02to use um you know, in service to Allah.
1:11:06Uh and then that kind of indirectly
1:11:07affects these various diaspora immigrant
1:11:09diaspora populations. Then the other
1:11:11thing you had in Europe and the United
1:11:13States is people who just fall away from
1:11:14religion entirely. About a quarter of
1:11:17Americans who were raised in Muslim
1:11:19households now do not identify as
1:11:21Muslims at all. They don't appear in a
1:11:23lot of surveys. Um, then you have people
1:11:27who identify as Muslims but are not
1:11:30necessarily grounded in a community. By
1:11:31the way, I'm one of them myself. You
1:11:34know, I identify as a Muslim. I'm a
1:11:36believer. I don't have the deep
1:11:41religious command that my parents did
1:11:44and I don't have the deep religious
1:11:45community that they did. I'm married to
1:11:47someone who's not a Muslim, you know. um
1:11:49she actually knows a lot about it. But
1:11:52um so think about you know the mosque
1:11:56the immigrant mosque in Brooklyn where I
1:11:58grew up versus the NYU Islamic Center. I
1:12:01don't you know you know just think these
1:12:04are different my wife um you know went
1:12:07to a selective American university where
1:12:09there are a lot of foreign students and
1:12:11she actually got to know a lot of the
1:12:12Muslim foreign students very very well.
1:12:15Um that's an interesting different
1:12:16world. That's an interesting crucible.
1:12:18That's a world where you have people who
1:12:20are the foreign students coming, let's
1:12:22say, from the Arab world or elsewhere.
1:12:24Then you have the Americans who grew up
1:12:25in Muslim households, not very literate,
1:12:27and you kind of get drawn into this
1:12:28orbit. Then you have a few girlfriends
1:12:30and boyfriends who get drawn in, you
1:12:32know, kind of a few of those people. And
1:12:35then how does that world of the student
1:12:38Islamic center remember I said 47% of US
1:12:42Muslim adults are in post-secary
1:12:44education how does that intersect with
1:12:47Gaza then how is Gaza drawing in you
1:12:51know at Barnard I remember reading there
1:12:52was second generation there was a there
1:12:54was a excuse me not second there's a
1:12:56Korean immigrant who was arrested you
1:12:59know kind of I say her parents you know
1:13:02her immigrant parents how do they feel
1:13:04about this how do they make sense of
1:13:05this? How did this happen? She wasn't
1:13:08necessarily converting to Islam, but
1:13:10actually that is almost it's like the
1:13:12way you climb the levels. That's almost
1:13:15the higher level of enlightenment that
1:13:17you achieve if you're really in it.
1:13:18Daria V Shiovalier, she achieved the
1:13:22higher level of enlightenment, right?
1:13:24She unlock she became more of an
1:13:26insider. So, this is an interesting
1:13:28>> We should think, forgive me for the
1:13:29interruption.
1:13:30>> No, no, no, I'm getting excited. I'm
1:13:32interrupting out of excitement. we
1:13:34should think of um reform Islam so to
1:13:38speak and Islam that tries to retool
1:13:42itself to a deep integration into this
1:13:44American culture and moment turns third
1:13:47worldist because that's the America it's
1:13:49integrating into and in that America
1:13:52specifically it can claim levels of
1:13:54moral authority
1:13:56well that would drive a conversion after
1:13:58nine after after October 7. Um
1:14:02>> uh this is brilliant. This is brilliant.
1:14:04First of all,
1:14:05>> that is so perfect because it is ability
1:14:10said this.
1:14:10>> Well, no but no, but I think that you've
1:14:12articulated it. You know, it is what is
1:14:15you know, Christianity was the
1:14:16universalization of Judaism. You know,
1:14:18what is the thing where the barrier to
1:14:20entry is lower? What is the thing where
1:14:21we create something with prestige and
1:14:23status? You think about, you know, yes,
1:14:25that Jewish assimilation, you know, had
1:14:28took many different forms. One form of
1:14:30this was how could we be dignified and
1:14:33accepted and proud. So part of it is how
1:14:37do our religious forms come to resemble
1:14:40those kind of religious forms that are
1:14:43high status in this new country and how
1:14:44do we kind of adapt and you don't
1:14:46necessarily think about it that baldly
1:14:47but you're adapting but then you think
1:14:49about u you know the ethical culture
1:14:52movement you know you think about um you
1:14:54know reconstructionism and kind of what
1:14:56came out of that you know this is
1:14:59reconstructionist Islam and it is
1:15:01reconstru it's not the kind of like the
1:15:04these guys with the beards and the hats
1:15:07and the kind of, you know, they're kind
1:15:08of doing this and they and the accents,
1:15:11you know, it's not that. It is something
1:15:13that is much more tasteful and high
1:15:16status. It is something that is
1:15:18magnetic, that is, that is sexy and
1:15:21transgressive. This is something where
1:15:23the greatest, hippest, coolest musicians
1:15:26in the world uh are, you know, kind of
1:15:28singing from your himnil. So, if you're
1:15:31someone who I mean, yes. Um, and again,
1:15:34it takes a different form than it would
1:15:35in the 1950s in Scarsdale. You know what
1:15:38I mean? It's just, you know, it's it's
1:15:39just it's different. I But I think that
1:15:42you've Yes. I think you've totally hit
1:15:44the nail on the head. The difference is
1:15:45the difference is potentially
1:15:48very very important because the the
1:15:51Jewish integration process
1:15:54Americanized in the sense of committed
1:15:57Jews to what America itself the
1:16:01traditional sense of liberal democracy
1:16:03of America. Whereas third worldism which
1:16:08is extremely sexy in the elites is a
1:16:11path to validating all kinds of
1:16:13radicalisms. I I want to this will be
1:16:16the last question. You wrote a piece in
1:16:18the free press um in March there was an
1:16:21attempted um Islamist I think they were
1:16:24affiliated with ISIS attempt to bomb an
1:16:26anti-Islam protest at Gracie Mansion at
1:16:28the mayor's uh official residence in New
1:16:31York. uh and they were trying to attack
1:16:33the protesters, the anti-Islam
1:16:34protesters and the NYPD officers and
1:16:36their bomb didn't go off properly and
1:16:38that that was this that was the event
1:16:40and Mamani had issued mayor Mdani had
1:16:43issued uh you know a very very clear-cut
1:16:46denunciation of the anti-Muslim
1:16:48protesters and then at first issued a
1:16:50very just um anemic and and almost empty
1:16:55uh denunciation of the attack then
1:16:57followed up with a denunciation of the
1:17:00terrorist act. He used the word
1:17:01terrorist, but he never addressed the
1:17:04actual ideology. Like he did speak of
1:17:06the white supremacy, as he put it, of
1:17:08the anti-Islam protesters. There was no
1:17:10ideology to the terrorists who tried to
1:17:12murder NYPD officers and the protesters.
1:17:16And you wrote, um, I'm just going to
1:17:19quote you for one second. As as New York
1:17:21City's first Muslim mayor, Zoran Mandani
1:17:24is the most prominent observant Muslim
1:17:26in American life. He's made his
1:17:28religious identity a central part of his
1:17:30political identity and he has vowed not
1:17:32to bite his tongue in the face of
1:17:33Islamophobia. That gives him unique
1:17:35credibility and authority to speak out.
1:17:39And this is where you make enemies
1:17:41against the chauvinism, extremism,
1:17:43misogyny, and racism that exist within
1:17:46Muslim communities. And that has
1:17:48translated into violence again and
1:17:50again. Those strains represent as much
1:17:52of a threat to Muslim American
1:17:53flourishing as any external forces. And
1:17:56right now, Muslim Americans are
1:17:58desperate for leadership that addresses
1:17:59their internal communal challenges.
1:18:01Polling is spotty, but we know, forgive
1:18:04me for continuing to read, I want I want
1:18:05to I want to position the entirety of
1:18:08your argument. And and we're
1:18:09threequarters of the way there. Polling
1:18:10is spotty, but we know that Muslim
1:18:12Americans are concerned about extremism
1:18:14in their midst. In the last major survey
1:18:16on the topic in 2017, 82% of American
1:18:19Muslims reported concern about extremism
1:18:21in the name of Islam. 66% 66 points of
1:18:25that being very concerned. And in that
1:18:27survey, only 39% said that leading
1:18:29Muslim interest groups are doing a good
1:18:31job representing their interests. And
1:18:33then you write the punchline. Mani could
1:18:35be the leader Muslim Americans actually
1:18:37want, who sees Muslims not as perpetual
1:18:40victims of white supremacy, but as a
1:18:42vibrant pluralistic community that has
1:18:44the strength to face its internal
1:18:46challenges. And and you you just go on
1:18:48there to say he could be the leader. We
1:18:52he could do enormous good for Muslim
1:18:54Americans and their relations to their
1:18:55non-Muslim neighbors by being a leader
1:18:57in the truest sense. The reform Islam
1:19:03that is a political third worldism a
1:19:05secular religious but Islamically
1:19:09politically Islamic
1:19:11can't be that leader. can't turn inward
1:19:14and fix and and and self-critique.
1:19:17There's a tremendous amount of
1:19:18self-critique in the Jewish community
1:19:20and there isn't in the Muslim community
1:19:22because that version of Islam that
1:19:25political Islam creates a moral
1:19:27hierarchy of authority and authenticity
1:19:30in which the Muslim is the good guy
1:19:32definitionally. So, how could you have
1:19:35serious problems of anti-semitism in the
1:19:37Muslim community, of misogyny in the
1:19:39Muslim community, of things that
1:19:40actually need to be seriously discussed
1:19:42and put on the table because that's the
1:19:44only disinfectant, right? Um, is is
1:19:47Mandani the most the most prominent
1:19:49Muslim political leader in America
1:19:52is not going to go the way the Jews went
1:19:54because this ideology doesn't allow for
1:19:56that kind of introspection or doesn't it
1:19:58allows for it. It doesn't it doesn't
1:19:59drive it. It doesn't make it easy. It
1:20:01doesn't make it obvious.
1:20:04you know that when you're writing um a
1:20:08piece like this, there's an element
1:20:10where you're trying to make sense of a
1:20:12phenomenon, but then there's also an
1:20:13element where you're trying to be
1:20:15aspirational, even if you believe that
1:20:18um the argument you're advancing is
1:20:19unlikely to bear fruit. This is a case
1:20:22where do I believe that Zoromani was
1:20:25likely to take my advice? No, I did not
1:20:27believe that then. I don't believe it
1:20:28now. And I can explain to you why. But I
1:20:31also believe that my posture
1:20:35uh our posture should be um
1:20:39to create some exit opportunity to
1:20:43articulate what it might look like to
1:20:45take a different path. If that doesn't
1:20:46apply to Mayor Mom Donni, it might apply
1:20:48to someone else. Uh just to kind of lay
1:20:50out what that might look like. Now the
1:20:52challenge here is that um you know one
1:20:56of my colleagues recently observed that
1:20:57the American left is over
1:20:59institutionalized and the American right
1:21:01is underinstitutionalized.
1:21:03Uh and I think you could say something
1:21:05similar about different faith
1:21:07traditions, different religious
1:21:08communities. You know uh the American
1:21:10Jewish community um for a variety of
1:21:12reasons and I think this is something
1:21:14that's very much in a larger historical
1:21:15tradition has a very rich dynamic civil
1:21:19society. you know there it's it's thick
1:21:22with institutions
1:21:23um you know some of those institutions
1:21:25are fragile but you know some of them
1:21:26are very vibrant vigorous and healthy um
1:21:29the American Muslim community is
1:21:30underinstitutionalized
1:21:32you know you do have a few advocacy
1:21:34groups and what have you not all of
1:21:36which I consider very savory that's a
1:21:39whole other um story uh but then in
1:21:42general you know you have a heavily
1:21:45immigrant community or second generation
1:21:47community um the affluent parts of it
1:21:50are very kind of suburbanized and still
1:21:52their religious tradition is ethnic.
1:21:54Then you have this whole universe of
1:21:56younger assimilated people that you and
1:21:58I have been talking about.
1:22:00They are underinstitutionalized.
1:22:03And when you go back to that 47% number,
1:22:06how many US Muslim adults are in higher
1:22:09education? In a way, I mean this I'm
1:22:11sounding cute, but in a way these
1:22:13universities are the madrasas, you know,
1:22:15I mean these universities are actually
1:22:17the institutional core, the
1:22:18institutional center. So your uh reform
1:22:21analogy is just so good and powerful.
1:22:25The Middle East studies departments are
1:22:28actually you're not going to Alazar
1:22:29University to kind of like call the
1:22:31plays, you know, you're going to the
1:22:33Colombia Middle East studies department
1:22:35to call the plays. You're going to um
1:22:38you know the people, you know, the
1:22:40Khaledes and then kind of like the the
1:22:42various devotees of Sed and kind of what
1:22:44have you. um you know you have this kind
1:22:47of whole line of people and they have
1:22:48one on every campus right uh and you
1:22:51know so it is quite fascinating so I
1:22:53think you're I hope that I'm wrong I
1:22:56hope that I'm wrong but when it comes to
1:22:58a figure like Mayor mom Donnie
1:23:01for him to say anything beyond the bare
1:23:05minimum would be seen as weak
1:23:09inauthentic it would be it would be
1:23:11something that would be an experienced
1:23:13as an indignity And also remember you
1:23:16have multiple audiences. You have the
1:23:18audience in the broad mill that says,
1:23:19"Okay, well he said something. He said
1:23:20terrorism is bad. Okay, I'll take it."
1:23:23Then you have this small audience that
1:23:25is really paying very careful attention
1:23:28to what he says and wants to make sure
1:23:30that he is not bending. You see what I
1:23:33mean? They want to make sure that he is
1:23:34not actually conceding. He is not doing
1:23:36that. So they're very carefully parsing
1:23:39their words. You know, there was an
1:23:40article in Politico newsletter shortly
1:23:43after Mayor Mdan's inauguration saying,
1:23:44"Well, what is he spending time doing?"
1:23:46He said, "Well, he's really deferring to
1:23:47heads of his agencies to let them do
1:23:49their job, but he's spending hours
1:23:51working on press releases." I don't know
1:23:53if that's changed. He's been at the job
1:23:55longer now, but I thought, "Yeah, that
1:23:56tracks. That tracks." And I don't mean
1:23:59that to, you know, insult the guy or
1:24:01diminish him. He understands the power
1:24:03of these words. And he's someone who is,
1:24:06you know, unlike someone like a Bill
1:24:07Delasio. But Bill Delasio wants what's
1:24:10good for Bill Delasio. You know, Bill
1:24:11Delasio wants to be famous. He wants to
1:24:13be Zora Mandani is not arrogant in that
1:24:16way. Zora Mandani is a movement builder.
1:24:20Zora Mandani wants these ideals. You and
1:24:22I have been calling him the third
1:24:23worldest. Uh but he wants them to
1:24:26conquer the center left in this country.
1:24:29He wants to have a red strategy as well
1:24:31as a blue strategy. There are many
1:24:33different components to it. And so he's
1:24:35not perfect. He's not a political sage
1:24:37in every respect, but he has pretty good
1:24:38instincts. He understands how attention
1:24:40works. He understands how you've got to
1:24:43keep that hardcore minority happy, as
1:24:45well as be an acceptable face to a wider
1:24:48universe of people. He understands
1:24:50momentum. And um this is why I don't
1:24:54know if he's going to fade from the
1:24:55scene in 5 years. Maybe he will, but he
1:24:58is laying down a model that is being
1:25:03studied and will be followed. um and um
1:25:07he is surfacing many truths about this
1:25:10country, about uh our immigrant
1:25:13communities that are real. But you I
1:25:15just want to say to you, Havib, as a um
1:25:18I don't speak for anyone, you know, I'm
1:25:21a conservative. I'm a weirdo. I'm a kind
1:25:23of all sorts of things about me that are
1:25:25kind of different. But I will tell you
1:25:27that there are I don't want this to
1:25:30become American Muslims versus American
1:25:32Jews or American Muslim.
1:25:34I do believe that we can change this
1:25:37dynamic and I also believe that there
1:25:39are many people remember I told you
1:25:40about the articulate and the
1:25:41inarticulate. You know what I mean?
1:25:42There are the people who don't have the
1:25:43vocabulary.
1:25:46They don't have the vocabulary, but
1:25:47they're they have the heart and they
1:25:49have the gratitude. And they're the
1:25:50those people who are out there and in a
1:25:53way I have failed because I'm not a
1:25:55person who's out in the world, but we
1:25:58need our person who is out there to make
1:26:00that case to kind of make build a there
1:26:02are small people in little communities
1:26:04who are trying to do that, but we need
1:26:05that path um to advance the things that
1:26:09that you and I care about and that tens
1:26:12of millions of other people care about
1:26:13too. We need to find the plain words and
1:26:16uh in the end real ordinary people are
1:26:18going to be the redemption of the world
1:26:20from all the subtle sophisticated ideas
1:26:23that of the intellectuals that claim to
1:26:25know know it all. This is why I never
1:26:28got a serious formal education so I I
1:26:30could help shepherd along that uh um you
1:26:34and me both
1:26:36>> right Salam. You went to Harvard right?
1:26:39I have an undergraduate degree my friend
1:26:41you know in the Salam family that is I'm
1:26:43the least educated member of my family
1:26:45moral authority um Ryhan Salam this has
1:26:49been a you've taken an ignorant tourist
1:26:51on a tour of an absolutely fascinating
1:26:53and important world um and humanized it
1:26:56for me and you come and you are
1:26:58extremely clear about where you come
1:27:00from how much you represent how much you
1:27:01don't how much you're trying to analyze
1:27:03this world but try getting a sense of
1:27:06the ideas that animate them is a lot
1:27:09better than just tracking all the ways
1:27:11in which they're anti-semitic by
1:27:13claiming the NYPD learned to be racist
1:27:15to minorities from the Israel police
1:27:17exchange program. That to me is just
1:27:19mani that's it like anti-semite. But
1:27:21actually there's a deep rich fascinating
1:27:23profound cultural shift happening uh
1:27:26that has to do with immigration and has
1:27:28to do with Islam. It has to do with
1:27:29things that have nothing to do with
1:27:30immigrants and Islam but that they're
1:27:32all overlapping in these people. and to
1:27:34to understand some of that richness to
1:27:37have that window open a crack and look
1:27:38in um is extremely rewarding for me and
1:27:41I hope people have learned from it. So
1:27:43thank you very much for all that you do
1:27:45and and thank you for joining me. This
1:27:46was absolutely absolutely fascinating.
1:27:48>> Thank you my friend.

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