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13: The Radical Forgiveness of Anthony Graves [Encore] — Transcript

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0:00I save you hi I'm Eddie Robinson and in
0:04this episode death row Exon Anthony
0:08graves in August of 1992 authorities
0:12responded to a house fire in Somerville
0:14Texas inside the home six residents had
0:17been brutally murdered including four
0:19children under the age of eight despite
0:22no clear motive and no physical evidence
0:24connecting him to the crime Anthony
0:26Graves spent nearly two decades in
0:28prison and 12 of those years on death
0:32row they're going to either kill me or
0:34free me there's not going to be a
0:35compromise on the truth and I was
0:37willing to die for the truth too many
0:38people have done that and that's why we
0:40have the system that we have today
0:42coming up one of the most candid and
0:44unguarded discussions IU has ever
0:46featured stay tuned for a compelling
0:49conversation with Texas Exon Anthony
0:52Graves oh yeah I feel you we hear you I
0:56see
0:58you you're listening to I see you I'm
1:01Eddie Robinson imagine yourself at 26
1:04years old you're arrested for a horrific
1:07crime you did not commit you're sent to
1:10prison despite the lack of a motive or
1:13any physical evidence connecting you to
1:15the crime or even to the crime scene
1:17your conviction was based upon the
1:20testimony of another man who later
1:22admitted to committing that crime on his
1:24own a fact that was revealed just days
1:29prior to his own
1:31execution you end up behind bars for
1:33nearly two decades 12 of those years
1:36you're on death row and while you're on
1:39death row you're given two dates for
1:42your
1:42execution so after years in prison and
1:45serving about a dozen years on death row
1:47you're 41 years old and your conviction
1:50is overturned by a federal appeals court
1:53but you remain Behind Bars and you stay
1:56there until you're finally released
1:58nearly 5 years years later Freedom
2:02finally but at 45 years old this is the
2:06story of Anthony Charles
2:09Graves now at the age of 56 you can't
2:12help but sense the spirit the resilience
2:14and the determination he's possessed his
2:16entire life since his exoneration in
2:202010 he's become an author a
2:22world-renowned human rights Advocate a
2:24mentor for college students an
2:26investigator for Texas Defender Services
2:29a newb into the podcast world and a
2:31founding member of an organization
2:33designed to help others who've been
2:35wrongly
2:37incarcerated and now I see you with a
2:41very candid and unguarded conversation
2:44with Anthony Graves this segment does
2:47contain graphic imagery listener
2:50discretion is advised Anthony Graves we
2:54are honored to have you on our show ICU
2:57thank you so much for being here with us
3:00oh man it's an honor thank you so much
3:02for inviting me man I mean every time I
3:04get a chance to get on a platform and
3:06share my story it's amazing So yeah
3:09thank you for inviting me well first off
3:11sir you look
3:13fantastic how are you how are you
3:15feeling right now at this very moment I
3:18am truly truly blessed every day is a
3:20blessing man I wake up with a smile on
3:22my face because I'm a lie thank you for
3:25asking Anthony you spent 18 and a half
3:28years Behind
3:31Bars 16 of these years in solitary
3:34confinement and 12 of those years on
3:36death row before a federal court tossed
3:40out your wrongful capital murder
3:42conviction Texas Courts Anthony had
3:45previously rejected all of your appeals
3:48and you've said in your own words that
3:51you had to get out of the state of Texas
3:53and into the federal court system to get
3:55help because if it was up to the state
3:57of Texas you would be dead
4:01you would have been executed those were
4:03your words how
4:04often does that thought linger in your
4:08mind that the state of Texas saw you as
4:12guilty we the jury recommend and fix the
4:14penalty as death and you needed to be
4:18executed right like did you ever sit and
4:20think what's going on with the state of
4:23Texas I never thought what was going on
4:26with the state of Texas I always thought
4:28what's going to come with people people
4:29in the state of
4:31Texas why would you want to convict a
4:33man with no evidence why aren't you not
4:36making the system be more accountable to
4:38his actions why aren't you making the
4:41system produce results that shows that
4:44this individual is guilty instead of
4:47just letting someone come up in the
4:48court po the finger at the young man and
4:50then you sentence him to death you've
4:52not only forfeited your right to live
4:54among us but under the laws you have
4:57forfeited your right to live at all
5:00what is going on with us as a community
5:04as a people in this great state that we
5:08who are the real decision
5:10makers are making decisions that are
5:14causing innocent lives to be
5:17taken who are we today and I think that
5:20that question needs to be answered not
5:23by the state of Texas but by the people
5:25in the great state of Texas who are we
5:29because we have have many examples that
5:31show us that we are failing our citizens
5:35We are failing our communities we are
5:37faing as Americans who are we we need to
5:42Define ourself and play that role and
5:44play it quickly because as of right now
5:47we're headed toward the bottom and
5:54fast I want to play a part of an
5:56interview that was conducted with the TV
5:59program democracy Now from New York this
6:02is democracy now this was back in
6:052012 where you spoke about the testimony
6:09that you gave to lawmakers on Capitol
6:11Hill about solitary confinement in US
6:14prisons including the conditions of many
6:18state death row facilities and this was
6:20the first time that the Department of
6:22Justice held hearings on this issue the
6:25TV program democracy now had played
6:28footage from that hearing where Senator
6:30Richard Durban of Illinois asked the
6:33then head of the Federal Bureau of
6:35Prisons Charles Samuels what happens
6:38next in the Federal Bureau of Prisons
6:41when someone has reached that extreme in
6:43their personal conduct about the
6:46conditions inmates would exhibit
6:48including self-mutilating behavior and
6:52just really intense behavior that was
6:54happening in solitary confinement they
6:57were saying that it's policy to transfer
7:00these inmates to a psychiatric facility
7:03but in the interview with democracy now
7:05you were like no uh-uh no they say that
7:08on paper but what they do in reality is
7:12far from that there's a culture of
7:14Madness down there and I spoke with one
7:16officer and I asked him I said man why
7:18do you treat people the way you treat
7:20them down here he said man because I
7:22feel like I'm doing Society of favor you
7:24know so that's the kind of attitude they
7:26have toward the inmates so this whole
7:27notion of them following the guidelin
7:29that this guy is talking about on paper
7:32is just it doesn't
7:34exist that part of the interview that
7:36you conducted on Democracy Now really
7:38stood out to me and it makes me wonder
7:41but for the fact that you were
7:42exonerated spent nearly two decades
7:45Behind Bars a dozen of those years on
7:48death row if you hadn't stood up to
7:51raise awareness to this issue do you
7:53think this would have received the
7:55attention that it deserved no no no of
7:57course not we move on to the next thing
7:59and we do that quickly we had to pause
8:02when it came to me because I was steing
8:04up and I was speaking out and I
8:06continued to do that today I demand that
8:10you listen to me while I share my story
8:12with you because you are the one that
8:13did this to me you are the one that
8:15allowed the state of Texas to do this to
8:17me you are the one that voted to
8:19wrongfully convicted me so I demand that
8:21you stand there and let me tell you my
8:23story let me tell you what you put me
8:25through I I demand that and had I not
8:29been demanding that no we would have
8:31moved on to the next thing way before
8:34now when you learned or at least when
8:37you saw or perhaps noticed that the then
8:40Bureau of Prisons director was indeed a
8:43black man Charles Samuels how did that
8:46register in your mind if it ever did you
8:50know be honest it did I'm going to be
8:54honest it did because when I look at the
8:56next black man I think surely he has to
9:00understand what we go through he's a
9:02black man surely he has to understand
9:05the Prejudice the biases the races that
9:08are in our organizations and
9:11institutions I know he has to know this
9:14he's a black man so what is he doing is
9:16he sitting up here telling these white
9:18people what they want to hear so that he
9:21can keep his job so he can say yes boss
9:24I'm doing the right thing I'm holding
9:27them back for you because I've seen this
9:31and as he sit there beside me explaining
9:34to the powers that be that everything is
9:40okay well let's just say this Mr Charles
9:44told me that we still have a long way to
9:46go so yeah I looked at it and thought oh
9:49my
9:50goodness I only see this on TV and this
9:53man ass sitting right next to me
9:57wow you're listening to to ICU I'm Eddie
10:00Robinson and we're speaking with death
10:02row Exon Anthony Graves I'm wondering if
10:06there had been this notion of to look at
10:09it on the other side you know what other
10:11alternatives are there someone would say
10:13there are inmates that are dangerous
10:16they commit some serious serious crimes
10:19what alternatives are there are these
10:21prisoners receiving the mental health
10:23treatment that they should deserve you
10:25know what do you say to that well there
10:27are many Alternatives number one you
10:29don't design something to break a
10:32person's will to live because that's
10:34what s f is it's designed to break your
10:37will to live right now I understand that
10:41some in
10:43mes not non Cooperative some men may
10:47have behavior issues those are
10:49mitigating factors that need to be
10:51addressed and you don't address them by
10:53putting them in a hole and throwing away
10:54the key you design something even know
10:57when you have to give them a time out
10:58but it's design design to get them back
11:00to that place of normaly it is designed
11:03to be a time out to deal with whatever
11:05issues you're dealing with to help you
11:06get back to that place of Normy to help
11:08you get back to the general population
11:10but that's not the way it's designed
11:11today it's designed to put you in a hole
11:14and break your will to
11:16live and because of that we have a lot
11:19of young men and women come out of there
11:22with a lot of serious mental illness
11:25issues that was caused by the way they
11:27have been housed behind those walls
11:30solitary confinement does one thing and
11:33one thing only it breaks your will to
11:37live that's it that's what it's designed
11:40for it is not a rehabilitative measure
11:43it is punitive in nature it breaks your
11:46will to live you you don't get anything
11:50else out of that so if you trying to
11:54protect people from dangerous inmates as
11:57they say by putting them in solitary
11:59confinment okay but how long how long do
12:03you put him there until you start
12:05recognizing what his real issues are and
12:08help him get back to that place or
12:10normaly where is that part of the
12:12package that goes with solitary
12:14confinement that okay he needs to time
12:17out but now we need to address his
12:18issues to get him back to that space
12:21where he's normal instead of just
12:23putting them in this hole and letting
12:25them Rock and then sending them back out
12:28to society and asking us to deal with
12:32him why do you think retiv ism is still
12:34high why do you think crime is still
12:37high our prison system are letting us
12:42down as
12:43Americans and they are sending people
12:45back home worse off than they were
12:48before they got there and we are left to
12:51deal with
12:54that it's crazy describe what you saw it
12:58sounded just really graphic but just
13:01kind of give people an understanding of
13:03what it was that you saw when you were
13:05in there I've seen your men come down
13:07there 16 17 years old and in two years
13:11they didn't even know their own name
13:12anymore battling
13:13incoherent the state had put them on
13:16medication Thurs or whatever you call
13:19they walk around like zombies I seen men
13:22who just gave up who you look in their
13:25eyes and it was just a empty shell and
13:27you knew it wouldn't be long before they
13:28tried to take their own life and guess
13:31what they did or they attempted many
13:34times I seen men just give up on their
13:36appeal Dro their up here because of the
13:39conditions that they were living under
13:41they couldn't take it anymore it wasn't
13:43a matter of Innocence or guilt they just
13:45gave up and they dropped their appeal
13:48and they let the State murder them
13:51because they just couldn't take the
13:52conditions
13:53anymore I seen men I'm talking about
13:56take razors and Seth mu cut their throat
14:00slit their Wrist all because of how
14:03we're housing them it's not about the
14:06case it's about the
14:09conditions I seen all of this man and I
14:12have to live with this for the rest of
14:13my life I was there when 400 men were
14:16executed around
14:18me that I basically was growing up with
14:21cuz they kidnapped me at
14:2326 and didn't let me go till I was
14:2645 I was growing up with young men
14:29in who had taking their lives who was
14:33dropping their
14:34appeals who was going
14:38insane and at the end of the day our
14:42state was
14:43saying but we still have the right to
14:47execute and we were executing one
14:51sometime twice a
14:52day I had to live with that
14:55man getting executed two of your friends
14:58getting
14:59executed on one day they young 23 24
15:03healthy young men and then you look them
15:06in the eye one of them is crying telling
15:08you he's in I didn't do this in 6 hours
15:12they F to murder him though but his last
15:14words is I'm innocent man I didn't do
15:16this and the only thing you can tell him
15:18is man keep your head up don't let them
15:20steal your dignity man walk with your
15:22head up that's it man be the man you are
15:26I all those experiences man live with
15:29him every day every day a man without
15:32hope is a dead man okay he just hadn't
15:35laid down yet those guys fight for their
15:38life every day because they hopeful that
15:40something will change something will
15:42happen and what kept me alive is
15:46hope that's why my book is called
15:48infinite hope the only thing that you
15:51have down there is hope you have nothing
15:54else and if you lose that you're a dead
15:57man walk
15:59[Music]
16:04coming up more with death row exonary
16:07Anthony Graves and we'll find out how
16:09Anthony's family is doing namely his
16:11three African-American sons who had been
16:13without their father for 18 and A2 years
16:17plus we get more insight into the
16:18prosecutor of Anthony's case Charles
16:20sesta who used false testimony during
16:24the trial and kept Anthony on death row
16:26for years Anthony has indeed seen seen
16:29the prosecutor and spoke with him since
16:30his release what was said during that
16:33exchange and how does Anthony feel about
16:36him now after being wrongfully convicted
16:38of murder a powerful segment you cannot
16:42miss I'm Eddie Robinson I see you
16:45returns in just a moment
16:48[Music]
16:53[Music]
17:02if you're enjoying this program be sure
17:03to subscribe to our podcast I seeu with
17:07Eddie Robinson you can hear all the past
17:09episodes and be notified when new
17:11episodes are released also please take a
17:14minute to give us a review or comment we
17:17love getting feedback from our listeners
17:20[Music]
17:31welcome back to ICU I'm Eddie Robinson
17:34Anthony Graves was convicted of the most
17:36infamous crime in burlingon County
17:38History the 1992 murder of a family of
17:42six in the small town of Somerville
17:44Texas he was given the death penalty and
17:46spent the next 18 years fighting to
17:49prove his innocence he is death row
17:52exonary number
17:54138 we continue our conversation with
17:57Anthony Graves
17:59this segment may contain language
18:01unsuitable for young
18:03listeners we won't get you to relitigate
18:06any of what went down in your case and
18:09how evidence was hidden you know
18:10prosecution threatened Witnesses but I'm
18:13more
18:14interested in you Mr Graves and how you
18:18came out of all this on the other side
18:22you were given
18:24two execution dates while you were on
18:27death row I mean
18:29two what had to have been going through
18:32your mind when you received the first
18:34date oh wow let alone the second date
18:37what was going on through your mind when
18:39that Happ well you know at that point
18:40you lay there and you think about your
18:42mortality is this really going to happen
18:44to me they're really going to murder me
18:46for something I know absolutely nothing
18:48about and they're going to actually get
18:50away with it wow so what can I do to
18:54make sure that people know what's going
18:57on and I had already been writing
18:59letters to people all over the world but
19:02it just made me step up my game and I
19:04started asking any and everybody he help
19:07me save my life I don't care if you was
19:0910 years old and you wrote to me I would
19:11ask your please ask your Mom and Dad
19:13could you help me save my life help me
19:15save my life Wow and it worked it worked
19:17I started an organization called join
19:19hands for justice over in France that
19:22went to Swiss that went to Sweden that
19:24went to Norway that went to Germany okay
19:27I was reaching out asking people to get
19:29involved to help me save my life I was
19:31sharing my story with them and my story
19:34was moving people across the globe and
19:36they got involved and because of that
19:39that was a loud Echo from Europe that
19:42reached the shores of America that got
19:44people involved in my case that saved my
19:47life otherwise America would have
19:50murdered me for something I knew
19:51absolutely nothing about and nobody
19:54would have
19:55remembered so this is why I crisscross
19:58the globe still today this is why I'm
20:01starting my podcast still today cuz I'm
20:04never going to let you forget what you
20:06did to me and what you're doing to
20:08others you need to hear these stories
20:09you need to be reminded so that when you
20:12go in there and you have an opportunity
20:13to make a decision that's going to
20:15determine whether a man lives or die
20:17you're going to take it
20:19seriously because you almost murder me
20:22for nothing no evidence just a black man
20:26who could not afford Justice and you
20:29took it out on me and I don't want you
20:31to do that to no one else so Anthony
20:33Grace has put his name on his face on
20:37Criminal Justice Reform and that's why
20:40I'm here man sharing my
20:42story you were a father of three
20:45children how are your children man my
20:47boys are doing great man you know they
20:49working their life is good now it wasn't
20:52always you know their dad was getting
20:54out from them their dad was their
20:56strength before that happened you know
20:58and so a lot of things took place in
21:00their life over those 18 and 1/2 years
21:02but today they're doing great man they
21:03amazing
21:04boy and I'm sure their memory and what
21:08being like their father you had to have
21:11been thinking about that while in prison
21:13I mean you're in prison for something
21:15that you did not do but your family had
21:18to have felt like they were in prison
21:20with you course right yes of course man
21:22you know I never forget when I did come
21:25home my M son he told me this story he
21:28said Dad
21:29when grandma called me and told me that
21:31you was getting out of prison he said I
21:32was on the washing on the brass on the
21:35river we was just out hanging out he
21:37said when I got that phone call you know
21:40while everybody was just hanging out he
21:41said I walked away from everybody and I
21:43just started
21:45crying you said I didn't I wasn't crying
21:47just because she was coming home I was
21:50crying because I knew that because she
21:52was coming on my life was going to
21:55change okay that's that was was my son
21:59telling me that his dad meant so much to
22:03him that he had to cry because he knew
22:05his life was going to change cuz his dad
22:08was now home and my son was telling me
22:10this when he was
22:12a 28 year old
22:16man that for the first time he's going
22:19to have guidance in his life from his
22:21dad that's going to change things for
22:23him and today he's doing great he's
22:27working he's doing his job 5 years the
22:29first time this has happened to this
22:30young man cuz he had given up MH because
22:34he thought life had given up on him and
22:36then his dad came back home and his life
22:39is great now and I'm so proud of it cuz
22:42I watched this young man pick himself
22:44back up and said my dad can do that then
22:46I can do anything and that's what he's
22:49doing today I have three boys three
22:52African American Boy and they' have not
22:54been in prison or anything so I'm really
22:57blessed because know stats says that one
22:59out of three African-American men go to
23:01prison p a parole of probation my three
23:04boss none of that so I'm so
23:08blessed that's very fascinating you say
23:11that because I've watched and rewatched
23:13old videos of you even during your
23:15booking when you had first been arrested
23:18and you were feeling like wait is this
23:20all a joke you know what's going on it
23:22where yeah I'm thinking maybe I had a
23:25hot chick or some you know cuz the last
23:27time I had problem with my CH and here
23:30they come C murder cameras yeah am I am
23:35I being punked here and then to see you
23:38and hear you in these hearings and watch
23:40your cander in interviewing and talking
23:44about the severity of all of this you
23:46reminded me of my father and his cander
23:50but for Grace it could have happened to
23:53my father or anyone and it seems as if
23:55there's a different kind of language
23:58that as black Americans we have to
24:01ingest it's a culture a language within
24:03our tribe that we're one way with our
24:06family and then the minute we step out
24:08of the door the minute we step out in
24:10public especially when law enforcement
24:13happens to be
24:14around or if you're from the state of
24:16Texas it feels like it's worse can you
24:20respond to that what's going on there
24:22what's that Dynamic like and some other
24:24people outside of the Black American
24:26Experience just don't really sort see
24:29that speaks to the fact that we need to
24:31have more dialogue we need to have more
24:32conversation around these issues you
24:34know we just can't continue to skirt
24:35around them act like we just nice to
24:38each other then the isses go away that's
24:39not the way it work man in America black
24:42people had to be two people we've had to
24:45be who we need to be to survive and we
24:50are who we are we at home with our
24:53family protecting them we've had to be
24:56two people we've had to when seeing a
24:59white woman walking down the street we
25:01used to have to go across the street
25:02just so that we didn't get in that trou
25:05okay we've had to be two
25:07people one who we need to be just so we
25:11can survive out here and two who we are
25:15so we can show that love and family
25:17strength to our families at home teach
25:20them how to be real men but when we out
25:23we got to be who we need to be if we
25:25want to come back home you know that's
25:30you're listening to ICU I'm Eddie
25:33Robinson and we're speaking with death
25:35row exer Anthony Graves and how he's
25:38living life as a free man not too long
25:42ago I'd say about six years ago the da
25:44in your case Charles sesta was disbarred
25:47from Prosecuting the case he was found
25:49to have hidden evidence excuse me I
25:52disbo his
25:53ass he wasn't just disb I dis board his
25:56ass all right now we can carry on
25:59I love that what happened to have you
26:04disbar him what did you do well that was
26:06a uh amendment to a piece of
26:09legislature that now allows a person
26:11who's been wrongfully convicted that has
26:13been misconduct in this case the statute
26:16of
26:17limitation now doesn't start until you
26:20out and runs for 4 years as opposed to
26:23what it was originally where once you
26:26convicted the statute limitation starts
26:28running for 7 years well it took me 18
26:32and 1/2 years to come home so with that
26:34statute being in place I was not able to
26:37file a grievance against the prosecutor
26:40but because they amended part of that
26:42law that allows you to go after
26:45prosecution up four years after your
26:47release I took advantage of that
26:50Amendment and file a grievance to the
26:52state B against the prosecutor that led
26:55to his
26:56disbarment so in other words I would
27:00like to say
27:02that you can use that same law to
27:07achieve a measure of
27:09justice as opposed to picking up a gun
27:11going out there trying to achieve and
27:13I'm saying that to you young people out
27:15there that are frustrated that you don't
27:17think you're getting a fast shape and
27:19that you're angry and frustrated they
27:21are laws and the books that you can use
27:24to get your measure of Justice I did it
27:28I did it legally and that prosecutor can
27:32never ever again prosecute someone else
27:35so that's ways to do this like my
27:37grandmother used to say okay that's many
27:41ways to skin that same cat okay you know
27:45so I'm just saying don't get yourself in
27:47trouble Seeking Justice seek it the
27:50right
27:52way I love that and that was your doing
27:56that was really what you accomplished
27:59yeah I'm not
28:00playing yeah exactly I'm not it I'm not
28:03playing with this thing man better
28:06yesterday this was like five six years
28:08ago that this transpired but for the
28:11fact that that wouldn't have occurred he
28:13would more than likely still be
28:14practicing law but the question that I
28:17was getting at
28:18is have you heard from him have you
28:21heard from sesta have the two of you
28:22ever communicated with each other well I
28:25tell you you know or would you want to
28:28talk to him you know your picture is
28:30much bigger for me this semester right
28:32we talking about criminal justice before
28:35he's such a small pun in this big old
28:37chess game but I did see him when we was
28:41having a hearing for his disbarment he
28:43was in the hallway when I got got there
28:46and I was talking to one of my attorneys
28:49who had represented me during trial and
28:52he knew her so he walked up to her while
28:54we were talking and he addressed his s
28:57you hey how you doing lyia and I'm just
29:00standing there but he's not addressing
29:01me right I feel like I'm always the
29:04bigger man right in situation so I
29:07looked at him I said Mr Masters and he
29:10looked and I put my hand out I said no
29:12hard feelings man and he looked at me
29:15and he grabbed my hand he shook it real
29:17tight he said I'll shake your hand I'll
29:19shake your hand but to me the way he
29:22shook my hand and grabbed it I think
29:24that was his only way to be able to
29:26apologize
29:28it's hard for a racist to apologize to
29:31the person that he's racist against but
29:33he gave me a very firm handshake and I
29:36took that as an apology and for me that
29:39was closure and then I went into that
29:41room and I dis bought his
29:44ass I see no hard
29:48feelings yeah and something else that I
29:51noticed too about your freedom was that
29:54there was this woman by the name of
29:56Nicole caseres
29:58well you know that brings a smile to my
30:00face when you call her name yes tell us
30:02about that smile tell us about that
30:04because in in and of itself she was a
30:06journalism Professor hard-nosed attorney
30:08with the Innocence Project of Texas who
30:10worked on your case for eight years to
30:13prove your innocence and she even
30:15reactivated her license to practice law
30:18in order to join your defense team tell
30:20us about that smile in your face when it
30:22comes to man what she's done I mean you
30:26can't really even put into words the
30:28character of this woman before she came
30:30into my life she had been working on my
30:33case already I didn't know it she had
30:34been doing some investigation to find
30:36out for herself if I was in fact
30:39innocent right because she didn't want
30:41to come down there and meet me and be
30:42convinced without any evidence so she
30:45stayed away and she did her own homework
30:49and so today she came down there to meet
30:52me I see this tall lady with short hair
30:54come walking down and I'm sitting in the
30:56you know VIs a room waiting order she
31:00get there she introduce herself she had
31:02two of her students and she said there
31:05anything you like to tell us before we
31:07get started and I said yes ma'am uh I I
31:10just want you to know that I'm not going
31:12to be sitting out here trying to
31:13convince you that I'm in that if you
31:15just do the job then you'll find out
31:17that I am in and she said well Mr Grace
31:19I just want you to know that we have
31:21been looking into your case and I do
31:23know that you like in us and that's how
31:25we started and so we sat down and we
31:29talked about my case and then she
31:31started coming back getting involved and
31:33coming back and we started building up a
31:35friendship been up friendship and after
31:378 years of going through this H man and
31:39watching this woman turn over every rock
31:41for me man watching this woman I'm
31:42talking about just dedicate her life to
31:46saving my life right because she
31:48believed in my innocence and then at the
31:51end of the day man she was right there
31:53when I walked up out and so what I did
31:56for her is I started a scholarship in
31:59her name at the University of Texas for
32:02students that were pursuing a law degree
32:05so I just thoughted that in my honor
32:07because I just felt like if you're going
32:08to be a lawyer then this is the ball
32:10this is what you go to law school for so
32:13uh at the University of Texas I honor
32:15her with a Nicole be goes scholarship
32:19for students that trying to do this
32:21great work uh Nicole is
32:24uh she's unique in the sense that so
32:29many attorneys that does his work are
32:31jaded because for so many times they've
32:33been burnt to believe that someone can
32:36only be proven guilty right and so they
32:38just as jaded as prosecutors you know
32:40defense attorneys sometimes they are
32:42even more critical than prosecuted
32:44because they've been burnt a lot right
32:47Nicole came in and got involved in my
32:49case and when she made her mind up that
32:51this man was innocent she didn't let
32:52nobody else convince her that he was and
32:54many people were trying to convince that
32:56even though he's innocent
32:58the best thing you could probably do for
32:59him is get him a life sentence but she
33:02didn't stop she was like that's crazy
33:04right you know this man is innocent and
33:06all we're going to fight for is to get
33:07him a life sense they basically was
33:10telling her in the legal Community well
33:12if you get him a life s then you
33:13basically saves his life right so Nicole
33:17and I would talk about stuff like that
33:19and she understood why I stood on that
33:22matter of fact when they asked her what
33:24would I take and if I would take time
33:26certain to come home she come back and
33:28talked to me about that and I told her
33:29and she knew before I take time serve
33:33just to get out of here they will be
33:35feed me in this cell that evening
33:38they're going to either kill me or free
33:40me there's not going to be a compromise
33:41on the truth that's just where I stand
33:44and I was willing to die for the truth
33:45and she knew that she stood right there
33:47with me you're going to kill me or
33:49you're going to free me I'm not
33:50compromising the truth too many people
33:52have done that and that's why we have
33:54the system that we have today it's a ple
33:57organist just and we need to get away
33:59from that and from what I gathered you
34:02discovered that you were free on the
34:03radio it was like prison show kpft or
34:08it's time to hover down the pipe Chase
34:10and rattle them bars cuz we're going to
34:13do a prison show for you right here at
34:15beautiful old historic why it go that my
34:17case had been overturned it was a
34:19another inmate that had heard it I was
34:21listening to the Astros game and uh yeah
34:24I was Astro fan back there we was good
34:26right and I'm listen to the Astros man
34:28and a guard a female guard came by
34:31myself C and she throws a note in there
34:33I'm like what's going on and she say
34:35that note is from another inmate I think
34:37it's something about you case when I
34:39heard that you know I wasn't in no rush
34:41to jump up and go get it because you
34:42never know what that news is right I'm
34:44on death row right it could be that hey
34:47man it just found out you got execution
34:49date because that's how you found out
34:51right so I wasn't in in a hurry to pick
34:53up the note but then I finally got up
34:55and I would have picked up the note and
34:57open up in a no red you know hey man
34:59congratulations I just heard on the
35:01radio that your case had been overturn
35:03by the fifth second so that's how I
35:05found out my case had been overturned
35:07but it still took me 4 and a half more
35:09years to come home because the county
35:11decided that they were going to retry
35:13this purg case and they didn't care what
35:15the court had said I didn't know if I
35:18was going to walk out or they was going
35:19to carry me out in the box but I was
35:21determined to let the world know my
35:23story fortunately for me I was able to
35:26walk out right as an innocent free man
35:29and the world still knows my story but
35:31yeah man it was something else but
35:33Nicole Nicole man is myum that's my big
35:36sister my angel my hero she's family to
35:39me man she
35:43[Music]
35:52family coming up what kind of reparation
35:55would you ask for if you were locked up
35:58for two decades even spending time on
36:00death row knowing you were innocent
36:03Anthony Graves was indeed awarded
36:05compensation stay tuned for his reaction
36:08to that restitution I'm Eddie Robinson a
36:11final compelling segment of ICU is just
36:14moments away we'll be right
36:19back if you're enjoying this program be
36:22sure to subscribe to our podcast ICU
36:25with Eddie Robinson you can hear all
36:27past episodes and be notified when new
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36:33minute to give us a review or comment we
36:36love getting feedback from our
36:39[Music]
36:43listeners it's I seeu I'm Eddie Robinson
36:46with death row Exon and now Chief
36:49Community liazon for the Harris County
36:51public defender office Anthony Graves
36:54he's working to push changes to a system
36:57in desperate need of Criminal Justice
36:59Reform Anthony is the first in the
37:02nation to serve as a liaison in this
37:03capacity but he hopes to expand this
37:06role in regions and counties Across
37:09America I see you as we wrap up our chat
37:13with Anthony
37:14Graves do you ever get angry really
37:19angry with anyone because your years of
37:21becoming a young adult into forming a
37:24career that was taken away from you that
37:27development was taken away from you
37:29those years you will never get back how
37:35do you C or deal with it you wouldn't
37:37want back I would want them back and
37:38they didn't steal nothing from me what
37:40they did is they took me down there
37:42sharping up my IR okay that's what I did
37:45I went to all boy school all men school
37:48and I learned how to advocate for
37:50criminal justice before on behalf of the
37:53rest of our society so they didn't take
37:55nothing from me they sharpened up my
37:57skills set all right and they sharpen up
37:59my skill set long enough for me to come
38:02out here and be very effective I'm very
38:04effective in what I've been doing out
38:05here and it's because of what they did
38:08to me that allowed me to develop this
38:12craft this order skill set where I'm
38:15able to go out and I'm able to tell them
38:18my story get people to get involved and
38:20make change so in hindsight they gave me
38:23a lesson by giving me such a purpose in
38:26life that for the rest of this Earth I
38:28will live even when I'm not here so they
38:32gave me a vehicle to live
38:34forever I do want to reemphasize the
38:37notion of the State of Texas and you did
38:39mention the people in the State Texas
38:41operates some of the meanest prisons and
38:44jails in our country there's perhaps
38:46even this underlying network of Texas
38:49prosecutors law enforcement and
38:51lawmakers that actually work handin hand
38:54and there's a history that solidifies
38:56that right yeah what are your thoughts
38:57on that well let me just say this cuz
39:00I'm an optimist I believe things are
39:01changing okay I'm now working in the
39:05system right as as I say I am here at
39:08Harris County public defender office as
39:10the community Lea my mindset is if you
39:12can't beat them join them man and then
39:14try to make change from within and so
39:16that's what I'm doing and I have an
39:18opportunity to speak with those that are
39:20influenced that influence our policies
39:23and things around Criminal Just I talk
39:25with them every day now and I see some
39:27old going out and some new coming in I
39:29see conservative values moving around
39:31and Progressive values stirring up I
39:34really believe things are changing
39:36because I think we have enough
39:38examples for us to understand that we
39:40need to make change and I see it every
39:42day so I don't want to just continue to
39:44beat up the system at the end of the day
39:46I just think that the system need to be
39:47throwed out with the bath water and
39:49start all over the system was never
39:51designed to protect all people this was
39:54an oppressive system from the beginning
39:56and it's still at no oppressive system
39:58and I hate the fact that we try to
40:00continue to Tinker with around with the
40:02oppressive system instead of just
40:04throwing it out and starting over with a
40:0521st century Ferrari of a criminal
40:09justice system if we can do that if we
40:12can get to that point and I think we
40:14will but I think it's going to take a
40:15younger generation to do that because I
40:17think a lot of people are setting their
40:18ways now it works for them it keeps you
40:22from jumping over their iron gates and
40:24running into their Mansions so I just
40:27think that that we on a path to
40:30correcting some of these things but it's
40:31going to take time we will get there but
40:34I think along the way we're going to
40:35still lose a lot of Life a lot of
40:37freedom because we still have that old G
40:40in place all
40:44right but I think the new God is going
40:46to push them out and I think the new God
40:48is going to put in place a system that's
40:50going to be F all of us not some of us
40:53but all of us and that day is coming
40:56that's why I'm out of here
40:58and not only that you've given a younger
41:01generation as well a prize could you
41:04share with our listeners your
41:05involvement with Texas Southern
41:07University and the
41:09ACLU well I'm over here at the public
41:11defender office now I'm sort of doing
41:14the same thing over here I'm teaching
41:16people how to tell their story there you
41:18go which is a program I started at TSU a
41:20speaker Bure program love it while was
41:22teaching people who've been directly
41:23impacted by the criminal justice system
41:25how to tell their story for change right
41:28a success story out of that is that one
41:30of the guys who learned how to tell his
41:31story eventually went to the capital and
41:35spoke to some State reps sharing his
41:36story with him long story short he end
41:38up getting a bill pass that will
41:41recognize children who parents were
41:43incarcerated as at RIS youth so that
41:45they can receive uh counseling service
41:47stuff from the state you know because at
41:50first the state didn't recognize him as
41:51that risk but this young man who learned
41:53how to tell his story went to Capital
41:56and Haw State reps and took what I
41:59taught him up there and got a bill pass
42:01so that's very encouraging to me so when
42:04I come over at the PDO I come as a
42:07community liaison we work with the
42:09community organizations I Mentor people
42:12who are going through the criminal
42:13justice system clients as well as family
42:15members so what we do is we try to make
42:17sure that they have the information that
42:19they need to be able to support their
42:21loved one so I teach them how to tell
42:23their story to empower them I have some
42:26U Fe Navigators that work up under me I
42:28send them over to the jail to speak with
42:31the clients to teach the clients how to
42:32tell their story so that judges can see
42:35them as a human being instead of a case
42:38number right judges can know what
42:40happened to them instead of just seeing
42:42that for 5 minutes you messed up judges
42:45can know that they had a good life
42:47before they were introduced to the
42:48criminal justice system and that they
42:50were good people and that they're still
42:51good people but judge won't know that if
42:53you don't know how to tell your story so
42:55I want you to learn how to tell your
42:56story so that's what I teach I teach
42:58people how to tell this story yeah as
43:01I'm not at Texas Southern no no no more
43:03but I'm going online from my podcast I
43:06will be still having that program that
43:08you can sign up to learn how to tell
43:09your story you're listening to ICU I'm
43:13Eddie Robinson as we start to conclude
43:15our compelling conversation with death
43:17row Exon Anthony
43:20Graves is there anything else that you'd
43:22like to add as far as work that you're
43:24doing to actually get some sort of
43:27reform with the criminal justice system
43:28where do you see the system at this
43:30stage right now what needs to take place
43:32and who's responsible for changing it
43:36well we are we the people we never have
43:38to forget that we are the people so many
43:41times we get frustrated with policies
43:44that our legislative bodies try to push
43:47and our state reps and people that we in
43:49trust to protect us put our best
43:52interest for we get frustrated with them
43:55and we want to give up but we have to
43:57remember that hey wait a minute if we
44:00frustrated with those that work for us
44:02then we need to fight ass okay we don't
44:05just need to war the off and let them do
44:07what they want to do they work for us we
44:09the people and if we don't agree with
44:12what they're putting down then we remove
44:14them when we put somebody else that has
44:16our interest at all we are the people we
44:21never need to forget that and I think
44:23sometimes we do because we get so caught
44:25up into the politic
44:27then we get frustrated at the energy of
44:30it all that we just decide that we don't
44:31want to participate but if you don't
44:34participate just think of it like this
44:36if you're working for a company and you
44:38have a
44:39boss and your boss decides that he's
44:43just going to quit ain't going to tell
44:44nobody who's going to run the
44:47ship we are the people we are the bosses
44:50and if we decide that we just don't want
44:53the job anymore we just let them do what
44:55they want then we get what we get
44:58right we are the bosses and we are the
45:02people who need to be making the
45:04decision as to who we going to hire and
45:06fire that's our job the people of the
45:09great state of Texas has that
45:11responsibility to hire and fire those
45:14that represent us so we have to look at
45:17ourselves okay when we have uh
45:20representative that go up there and they
45:22don't represent our interest we have to
45:24look at ourselves and say okay how did
45:26we end up picking him what did we miss
45:30okay we need to go back and check some
45:32different boxes here we need to do some
45:34more research on him okay so that lands
45:37at our feet he just who he is but he
45:41works for us so if we don't like what
45:43he's doing we need to replace him that's
45:45on us we can't forget that we are the
45:50people okay now as far as our Criminal
45:53Justice System man our criminal justice
45:55system has
45:57had home and
46:00individual families friends and they
46:03throwing us as a
46:05MAG that's what I think I read somewhere
46:08here where it says that you were
46:10compensated 1.4 million for your
46:13imprisonment as a result of all of this
46:16and what has
46:19transpired are
46:21you I don't even want to use the word
46:24satisfied but how do you feel about that
46:27in terms of a reparation well let me
46:29just ask you how would you feel if
46:31someone told you your life was only
46:33worth $1
46:34million am I taken everything from you
46:37your kids have grown up they have kids
46:39of their own you missed out on
46:41everything and then they and then they
46:43said you know what that's only worth $1
46:45million how would you feel I took that
46:48as an insult a slap in my face that you
46:53going to tell me how much my life is
46:54worth after you've tooken 18 and A2
46:57years
46:58up I could have got angry at that point
47:01cuz I had every right to be angry and
47:03bitter at you telling me how much my
47:05life is worth but how much is your life
47:08worth but I said you know what I'm going
47:12use this in I'm going challeng this in a
47:13different way I'm not going to let you
47:16decide how much my life is wor I'm going
47:19to show you how much my life is wor by
47:21the work that I do I'm going to put the
47:24value out there on who Anthony graay is
47:27by the work that I do and then we can
47:29figure out how much I'm worth but I'll
47:31be damn if you're going to tell me I'm
47:33only worth this amount of money and I'm
47:35just going to be satisfied and happy
47:37because if I was satisfied and happy I
47:39would not be doing what Mr graay do I
47:41would be laying up on the beach with a
47:43[ __ ] TI okay that's what I will be doing
47:46but I'm not satisfied and this state owe
47:49me and this state would owe me for the
47:50rest of my life and for the rest of his
47:53existence so what I ask from this state
47:56is to hear my my voice hear my story and
47:59move move to ation I don't want no more
48:02of your money I can make my own money I
48:05just want you to do the right thing put
48:07the right policies in place and treat us
48:09all equally and fairly to me that's
48:13compensation nothing else is and your
48:15reaction to like the money that's
48:17involved in the system in and of itself
48:19these corporate run prisons what are
48:22your thoughts on
48:23that well the state ATT just took out
48:26100 and something million dollars on the
48:28prison budget because they closed down
48:30some prisons and they was trying to
48:31figure out what they going to do with it
48:33right some people were saying well you
48:34know allocated toward food so they can
48:37get better food which is true you need
48:40more nutrition down there metal
48:41nutrition because the way they feed you
48:43down there man you're going to end up
48:45with all kind of health problems I just
48:46had a major certain and it was due
48:48because of how I was housing fed down
48:49there I had a precancerous mask on my
48:52small intestine they had to cut me open
48:54and take everything out and replum on my
48:56sister
48:57that's not hereditary that wasn't in my
48:59family that's because of the way I was
49:00house sleeping on a steel bunk eating
49:03food full of salt all day every day
49:06right so I understand you going to
49:07allocate some of those dollars toward
49:09that but here's what I say reism is
49:13still high crime is still
49:15high that's a big problem we got a 2.3
49:20million people in prison why don't we
49:22making a mandatory that they come out
49:25with some sort of trade or degree and so
49:29that when people come back home they can
49:31be productive they can start over they
49:33can get a second chance we're failing in
49:36that area and it's fascinating how the
49:40world helped in bringing you freedom I
49:44read this little stat that about one
49:46quar of a million people are
49:47incarcerated in jails and prison just in
49:50the state of Texas
49:51alone more that the total number of
49:54prisoners in Germany France Japan and
49:58the United Kingdom combined that's
50:01insane yes and you see as a result of
50:05that stat of the impact of our country
50:08and where we are as opposed to the world
50:13what they're doing with mental health
50:16and helping people right readjust to
50:20life right since the year
50:241819 1,3
50:2726 people have been executed in Texas as
50:30of June of this year in your heart of
50:33hearts Anthony
50:35Graves how many of those
50:381,326 people do you believe were
50:44innocent man I get asked this question a
50:48lot and my answer stage the say I would
50:52never ever put a number on how many
50:56people I I think more inoc that was
50:59executed by this state and the reason
51:02why CU I normally somebody
51:07out we've killed that many
51:11inoc so I would never give you a number
51:14because I know I'm going to leave
51:15somebody
51:16out that's powerful in and of
51:20itself thank you thank you for being
51:23candid thank you sir being honest
51:27thank you for being real we needed to
51:30hear that especially from someone who
51:31spent two decades Behind Bars 12 of
51:36which on death row death row 12 and a
51:40half I always say give me that hand they
51:42pay
51:43for that's it that's it you got
51:47it Anthony Graves a pleasure thank you
51:51sir thank you sir great to be on your
51:55show and that's wrap for another episode
51:58of ICU our production team includes
52:01technical director Todd holander
52:03producer editor Shannon mccy editor Mark
52:06delao sound designer Dave mcder I'm your
52:10host and executive producer Eddie
52:13Robinson thanks so much for listening

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