113: Kristine Bunch Pt. 1 - CRIME TO BURN TAKEOVER — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00hello everyone today we have one of our
2. 0:03amazing podcasting friends taking over
3. 0:06like mother like murder when we knew we
4. 0:09were going to be taking our break and
5. 0:11having some guest hosts I wanted this
6. 0:14story so badly so I am so thankful that
7. 0:17when I reached out she said yes yes
8. 0:21today's episode takeover is by crime to
9. 0:24burn and you will be hearing part one of
10. 0:28April's coverage on Christine
11. 0:30Bunch Christine spent over 17 years
12. 0:34behind bars for a crime that she did not
13. 0:36commit a crime that took the life of her
14. 0:39then three-year-old son Christine was
15. 0:42exonerated after all those years and
16. 0:45today you'll hear some of her story and
17. 0:47then we encourage you to head over to
18. 0:49Crime to burn to hear part two as well
19. 0:52as an exclusive interview that April had
20. 0:55with Christine
21. 0:57herself thank you so much to April Ro
22. 1:00and her comical right-hand man or I mean
23. 1:04someone who's seen Backdraft at least
24. 1:06twice her husband be sure to go and
25. 1:10subscribe to Crime to burn wherever you
26. 1:12listen to your podcasts we will be back
27. 1:15December 10th until then we hope you
28. 1:18enjoy today's episode takeover
29. 1:24[Music]
30. 1:30[Music]
31. 1:39science it's supposed to be reliable a
32. 1:42solid foundation upon which to build
33. 1:44criminal cases and ensure that the
34. 1:46people responsible for horrific crimes
35. 1:48are held to account scientific evidence
36. 1:51is supposed to be the gold standard in
37. 1:52terms of unimpeachable proof and it can
38. 1:56be but what happens when we let junk
39. 1:58science and investigative tactics that
40. 2:00are nothing more than old wives tales
41. 2:02into the halls of
42. 2:03Justice I can tell you exactly what
43. 2:06happens a young woman loses her Freedom
44. 2:08a mother loses her children a family is
45. 2:11shattered nearly two decades irrevocably
46. 2:14stolen from an innocent woman this is
47. 2:17the story of Christine bunch and the
48. 2:19shameful injustices she with stod at the
49. 2:21hands of scientific mythology and
50. 2:23outright
51. 2:25dishonesty the cost Christine Bunch paid
52. 2:27for a crime she didn't commit is
53. 2:29inexcusable
54. 2:31she's been exonerated a word that means
55. 2:34unburdened but after 17 years behind
56. 2:36bars for a crime she didn't commit I
57. 2:39doubt she feels unburdened I suspect
58. 2:42that the unfair way she was treated by A
59. 2:44system that is supposed to Value truth
60. 2:46Above All Else weighs heavy on her mind
61. 2:48as she recounts those years she spent
62. 2:50away from her family paying a debt to
63. 2:52society that she did not owe our justice
64. 2:56system failed Christine Bunch today
65. 2:59we'll shine a light into a dark chapter
66. 3:01in criminal justice and tell you the
67. 3:04story of what really happened to
68. 3:06Christine Bunch on crime to
69. 3:08[Music]
70. 3:13burn welcome to Crime to burn where we
71. 3:16explore the dark suity landscape where
72. 3:18True Crime intersects with arson and
73. 3:20criminal negligence join us as we sift
74. 3:23through the Ashes to bring you the story
75. 3:25of what really happened
76. 3:29[Music]
77. 3:40welcome back to Crime to burn I'm April
78. 3:42a fire protection engineer and former
79. 3:43firefighter and I'm a little r of
80. 3:46sunshine in an overcast World a quick
81. 3:49reminder to please leave us a festar
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97. 4:18that's what we really need right now and
98. 4:20we appreciate each and every one of you
99. 4:21that takes the time to interact with our
100. 4:22content to help us grow and as always if
101. 4:25you have constructive feedback fire
102. 4:26stories case suggestions or information
103. 4:28of on any of the cases that we've
104. 4:30covered you can reach out to us at
105. 4:32crimet bur at gmail.com you got your
106. 4:34foot right on the floor don't you that
107. 4:36is nice that's some East Coast Speed
108. 4:39there do you think they pared all that I
109. 4:42hope so the people in Alabama definitely
110. 4:44don't but you can adjust the speed in
111. 4:46the podcast apps and so they can listen
112. 4:48to it on half speed if they need to you
113. 4:50can go slower yeah oh all right before
114. 4:54we get into this case um a trigger
115. 4:56warning for child death I'm going to be
116. 4:58as respectful as I came be but if you
117. 5:00would rather not hear a story that
118. 5:01involves the death of a child we
119. 5:02completely understand and we'll see you
120. 5:04on the next case I'll see you all later
121. 5:07I'm
122. 5:08out door slams here you don't get this
123. 5:11that option you have to stay I must now
124. 5:14tell you about Christine bunch a woman
125. 5:17worthy of admiration but not because she
126. 5:19made all the right choices in life nope
127. 5:22Christine would probably be the first to
128. 5:24tell you that at 21 she had not made all
129. 5:26the right choices but what she was doing
130. 5:29was being responsible for the products
131. 5:31of those choices and it was what
132. 5:33happened to her and how she handled it
133. 5:34that make her worthy of admiration
134. 5:37because Christine lived an absolute
135. 5:38nightmare a nightmare that would have
136. 5:40destroyed most of us but Christine
137. 5:42persevered Christine earned her GED her
138. 5:46associates degree and her bachelor's
139. 5:48degree while she was incarcerated but
140. 5:50that's not all she became an expert in
141. 5:53legal issues and court procedures and
142. 5:55she fought without Financial Resources
143. 5:58without anyone on her team without a
144. 6:00reason to hope she clung to truth and
145. 6:03she fought she fought for her Freedom
146. 6:05after a wrongful conviction and when she
147. 6:07won it she did not stop fighting nope
148. 6:11Christine Bunch went on to fight for
149. 6:13other wrongfully convicted people and
150. 6:16that makes Christine bunch a badass I
151. 6:19don't mean to Rabbit Trail here but how
152. 6:20do you fight without
153. 6:22resources she literally just wrote to
154. 6:25lawyer after lawyer after lawyer
155. 6:27explaining what she had learned about
156. 6:29her case and asking them to help her
157. 6:31that's garnering resources but she
158. 6:34didn't have any to start with she
159. 6:35started with nothing fair enough that
160. 6:39that is badass you're right but let's go
161. 6:41back to before she learned just how
162. 6:43strong she could be Christine had a
163. 6:46bright and promising childhood near
164. 6:48Indianapolis Indiana her family owned
165. 6:51two farms and a bakery she was bright
166. 6:53she excelled in school and she had a
167. 6:55younger brother Michael that she adored
168. 6:58Christine and Michael's parents were
169. 6:59super busy running the bakery and
170. 7:01farming leaving Michael and Christine
171. 7:03often
172. 7:04unsupervised and Christine being older
173. 7:07than Michael by four years took on a
174. 7:08very motherly role toward her baby
175. 7:10brother in one story that made me laugh
176. 7:13she recounts that he was sick and she
177. 7:16wanted to give him some cough syrup
178. 7:17because he was coughing but she
179. 7:19accidentally gave him muster shower
180. 7:20sauce how old was she um she was she was
181. 7:23little she was a little kid she was too
182. 7:25big to be doing out or she was too
183. 7:26little to be doing out medication to a
184. 7:28younger child but it was just funny that
185. 7:30she gave him werer sauce you're never
186. 7:32too young to dull out werer sauce but
187. 7:35really how old was you about that I
188. 7:36didn't tell me I don't know or guess I
189. 7:40don't know I would guess maybe like 9 or
190. 7:4110 okay I'm just trying to get some
191. 7:43perspective I don't I don't know
192. 7:45anything about this except something
193. 7:47really bad happened and I should be mad
194. 7:50when Christine was in sixth grade her
195. 7:52happy childhood started to fall apart
196. 7:54this is the year that her parents
197. 7:55divorced and she and Michael moved with
198. 7:57their mother to Greensburg Indiana about
199. 8:0035 M away from where they'd been living
200. 8:03now Christina's mother struggled
201. 8:04financially and Christine struggled to
202. 8:07fit in she didn't make any friends in
203. 8:10her new school and when her mother
204. 8:12remarried Michael and Christine both
205. 8:15began to frequently skip school and
206. 8:17nobody really seemed to care so by the
207. 8:20time Christine got to nth grade she had
208. 8:21dropped out completely instead she hung
209. 8:24out with a crowd that would drink and
210. 8:25smoke all day she had no aspirations no
211. 8:28job and her only care was watching out
212. 8:30for her little
213. 8:31brother after her mom divorced for a
214. 8:33second time her mom began dating a man
215. 8:36that finally stepped up to become the
216. 8:38father figure that was missing from
217. 8:39Christine's daily life he reportedly set
218. 8:42boundaries en forced curfews but Above
219. 8:45All Else he made sure the kids always
220. 8:46left with a quarter and knew that no
221. 8:48matter what happened they could call him
222. 8:50on a pay phone and he would be right
223. 8:52there don't leave without this
224. 8:56quarter this quarter will save your life
225. 8:59if you can put it into a phone machine
226. 9:02this is this is just a recount maybe
227. 9:04I'll those of us born in the 1900s lived
228. 9:07through
229. 9:09qu ah it sounds like a pittance but it
230. 9:12that's that's nice to think about people
231. 9:14like that you know I give him an option
232. 9:16well his relationship with Christine's
233. 9:19mom fell apart but he actually stayed
234. 9:21close to the kids and continued to be a
235. 9:23supportive role in their life and he
236. 9:25continued to play that role as a father
237. 9:27figure to Christine all the way up until
238. 9:29the unthinkable happened so where does
239. 9:33the line get drawn between what's
240. 9:36appropriate and What's creepy in this
241. 9:38case because you think about it like you
242. 9:41just like some dude breaks up with your
243. 9:44mom and then like still keeps talking to
244. 9:48you let's not cast him as creepy so I'm
245. 9:51not trying to cast anybody as anything
246. 9:52I'm just being honest at the time of the
247. 9:54fire he was in his 60s and retired and
248. 9:57he Babys set Christine's baby for him
249. 10:01for her every day so that she could go
250. 10:03to school and better her life this guy's
251. 10:05already deeply involved with these
252. 10:07people yeah that's what I suspected I'm
253. 10:08just trying to pull this information
254. 10:10from you at the age of 17 Christine
255. 10:13found herself pregnant now like I said
256. 10:15she'd already dropped out of school and
257. 10:16she says she didn't really mind that the
258. 10:18baby's father didn't stick around
259. 10:20apparently he was no prize and in March
260. 10:23of 1992 Christine became a mom to a baby
261. 10:25boy named Anthony she called him Tony at
262. 10:2821 1 and 3 Christine and Tony were
263. 10:32living in a trailer in Greensburg
264. 10:34Indiana who at 21 and three yeah
265. 10:37Christine was 21 and Tony was three Oh I
266. 10:40thought you were giving like GPS
267. 10:43coordinates I was like what where is
268. 10:45that yeah no at ages 21 and three
269. 10:48Christine and Tony were living in a
270. 10:49trailer in Greensburg Indiana and she
271. 10:52had stayed close with that man that had
272. 10:54been this Father Figure in her life in
273. 10:56fact now in his 60s he babysit Tony
274. 10:58while Christine attended
275. 10:59classes Christine was working her tail
276. 11:02off she was learning welding in hopes of
277. 11:04being hired at a local Factory where she
278. 11:06would be eligible for benefits like
279. 11:08health insurance that she desperately
280. 11:10needed to help care for her toddler son
281. 11:13money was tight very tight but Christine
282. 11:16was described by everyone as a doting
283. 11:19mother on June 29th 1995 Christine
284. 11:23picked up Tony after class fed him
285. 11:24dinner bathed him read him stories and
286. 11:27the two had fallen asleep on the couch
287. 11:30in the living room of their trailer and
288. 11:32at some point in the night Tony had
289. 11:34awoken and gone into the front room of
290. 11:36their trailer which was separate from
291. 11:37where Christine was sleeping on the
292. 11:39couch I like this lady she's going to
293. 11:41weld herself out of a bad situation well
294. 11:44Christine woke up in the morning hours
295. 11:46of June 30th and she was confused it was
296. 11:49foggy her brain felt sluggish as she
297. 11:52tried to parse what was happening the
298. 11:55realization that her home was on fire
299. 11:57sent her into action she first first
300. 11:59attempted to put out the fire between
301. 12:01her and her son with a pillow and then
302. 12:03with a blanket both efforts were
303. 12:05unsuccessful so she tried to find the
304. 12:07fire extinguisher but she couldn't find
305. 12:09it and the Flames were growing she was
306. 12:11confused likely severely hypoxic from
307. 12:14the effects of smoke and by the time she
308. 12:16realized she couldn't put the fire out
309. 12:17and the wall of flames separating her
310. 12:19from her baby boy were impenetrable
311. 12:21Christine was frantic she ran out of the
312. 12:24trailer to summon help and then grabbed
313. 12:26Tony's tricycle to break the window into
314. 12:28the front room where she thought he was
315. 12:31now she attempted to climb into the
316. 12:33window frame to get into the burning
317. 12:34trailer to save her son but as the glass
318. 12:36broke the fire rapidly intensified
319. 12:38seeming to ignite the entire room at
320. 12:40once and her neighbors pulled her away
321. 12:43they feared allowing her to enter the
322. 12:45home would surely kill her she escaped
323. 12:47their grasp and ran back around to the
324. 12:49front door to attempt to re-enter the
325. 12:51house but was pushed back by the Flames
326. 12:53her neighbors continued to hamper her
327. 12:55efforts to get to her son because they
328. 12:57knew allowing her to re-enter the home
329. 12:59would result in her death those minutes
330. 13:02that she waited for the fire department
331. 13:03probably seemed like the longest minutes
332. 13:05of Christine's Life by the time the fire
333. 13:07department arrived the entire trailer
334. 13:09was shooting flames 30 ft in the air
335. 13:11they put out the fire and in total the
336. 13:14fire was out within 30 minutes of when
337. 13:17Christine woke up now Bunch was told
338. 13:19that firefighters had her son as they
339. 13:21bustled her into an ambulance where she
340. 13:23was transported to the hospital to be
341. 13:25treated for smoke inhalation she also
342. 13:27had burns from her attempts to fight the
343. 13:28fire and reach her son and she later
344. 13:31recounts that she already knew in her
345. 13:33brain that her son couldn't have
346. 13:36survived but the shock wouldn't let her
347. 13:38consider that outcome and it wasn't
348. 13:41until she arrived at the hospital that
349. 13:43somebody told her that her precious Tony
350. 13:44hadn't made it her baby was gone and of
351. 13:47course she learned this information
352. 13:49while she's in shock she's hypoxic she's
353. 13:52dealing with carbon monoxide poisoning
354. 13:54she's being treated for smoke inhalation
355. 13:56and
356. 13:57burns but the police decd decided that
357. 14:00because she didn't scream or cry or do
358. 14:02anything at first that they thought
359. 14:04would be appropriate right away when she
360. 14:06learned the news that this was
361. 14:09unusual and then as the news penetrated
362. 14:13that veil of shock and she came to the
363. 14:15full realization of what had happened
364. 14:17she did cry in fact she cried so much
365. 14:20that the police later said uh seems like
366. 14:22she was acting police already believed
367. 14:25that Christine Bunch had committed Aron
368. 14:26and set her home on fire intentionally
369. 14:28and in the life of her toddler son but
370. 14:31if they wanted a jury to buy it they
371. 14:33were going to need more than just an
372. 14:34accusation of acting and some hairbrain
373. 14:37theories unless those hairbrain theories
374. 14:39could come from trusted experts that's
375. 14:42how you make juries believe the unlikely
376. 14:44is credible that's how you take
377. 14:47Fabrications constructed out of the
378. 14:49exhalations of corrupted investigators
379. 14:51and turn them into stone and I'm not
380. 14:54usually this harsh on
381. 14:57investigators I don't believe that most
382. 14:59investigators would intentionally and
383. 15:00knowingly send an innocent woman to
384. 15:02prison but in this case investigators
385. 15:04behaved in a manner so shockingly
386. 15:06underhanded according to allegations
387. 15:08that I got out of court documents that
388. 15:11these investigators don't deserve the
389. 15:13benefit of the doubt they don't deserve
390. 15:14to wear the badge and these
391. 15:16investigators that decided that
392. 15:18Christine was an arsonist and a baby
393. 15:20killer intentionally looked at the crime
394. 15:22scene for evidence that they could
395. 15:24manipulate into telling the story that
396. 15:26they fabricated and when evidence came
397. 15:29back from the lab that didn't match
398. 15:30their Theory they allegedly conspired
399. 15:32with a forensic chemist to doctor their
400. 15:35report and make it appear that Christine
401. 15:38Bunch was an arsonist and a murderer
402. 15:40they lied in the halls of Justice they
403. 15:43manipulated evidence they sent an
404. 15:45innocent woman to prison for 17 years
405. 15:48there are words for people like that but
406. 15:50I'm going to let you come up with your
407. 15:51own words for them I have many synonyms
408. 15:55if you need help but the facts presented
409. 15:57here come from court do
410. 15:59and if they knowingly allowed evidence
411. 16:01to be modified to fit their Theory then
412. 16:03they don't deserve the gift of anyone's
413. 16:05discretion and if I come across as mad
414. 16:07it's because I am mad you deserve the
415. 16:09gift of my gu on your nose by noon the
416. 16:12day of the fire investigators already
417. 16:14had their sight set on Christine as the
418. 16:15arsonist and murderer of her child at 2
419. 16:18p.m. that day investigators took
420. 16:20statements from Christine at the
421. 16:21hospital now these are statements they
422. 16:23took from a woman that had just lived
423. 16:25through the horror of a house fire being
424. 16:26unable to reach her child the shock of
425. 16:29finding out he had passed away a woman
426. 16:31that was being treated for smoke
427. 16:32inhalation and had suffered memory
428. 16:34impacting effects of carbon monoxide and
429. 16:37so they made her go through the entire
430. 16:38story three separate times and as they
431. 16:41did that some of the details of her
432. 16:42accounts reportedly varied and they
433. 16:45wanted to know things like what were the
434. 16:47precise locations and Heights of the
435. 16:49flames and where was Tony in the bedroom
436. 16:51and apparently in one of her recountings
437. 16:53she mentioned that she thought the Hem
438. 16:55of her night gown had actually caught
439. 16:56fire as she was trying to fight the fire
440. 16:59a night gown that police later
441. 17:00determined wasn't singed and they took
442. 17:03that as a reason to presume that she was
443. 17:05lying about everything how long between
444. 17:07the incident and the the questioning of
445. 17:09her about five or 6
446. 17:11hours okay I don't think that's cool at
447. 17:14all no it's not I don't think that's
448. 17:16even morally okay especially for
449. 17:19somebody that's suffering from carbon
450. 17:21monoxide effects because carbon monoxide
451. 17:23is you need 72 hours to put those
452. 17:27thoughts in order there's no way that 4
453. 17:30hours or 5 hours or whatever 8 hours 10
454. 17:33hours after a situation like that that
455. 17:35you're going to recount it correctly
456. 17:37you're not done dealing with it at all
457. 17:39you're not done dealing with it for a
458. 17:40long time but you're not even done
459. 17:43recognizing what happened she wouldn't
460. 17:44have even physiologically shaken off the
461. 17:46full effects of the smoke inhalation at
462. 17:49this point whoever questioned her at
463. 17:50that point was kind of a dick yep and
464. 17:53carbon monoxide can affect memory the
465. 17:56fact that her accounts varied as she
466. 17:58tried to to recall events doesn't
467. 18:00surprise me at all but investigators
468. 18:02took this as a sure sign she was lying
469. 18:04she told police that she thought the Hem
470. 18:06of her night gown may have caught on
471. 18:07fire at one point but when they looked
472. 18:09at the night gown it wasn't singed so
473. 18:11they took that as reason to believe that
474. 18:13everything she said was a lie now she
475. 18:15was later released from the hospital and
476. 18:17at 10: p.m. that night the police called
477. 18:19her down to the station for more
478. 18:20questioning a further dick move what the
479. 18:23[ __ ] man she reported to the police
480. 18:25station that's
481. 18:26harassment it was but she reported to
482. 18:29the police station Barefoot because she
483. 18:31had lost everything in the fire and she
484. 18:32didn't have any shoes Jesus Christ so
485. 18:35the interview ended up being so
486. 18:37stressful for Christine that she left in
487. 18:39tears and told her family that she
488. 18:41didn't ever want to meet alone with the
489. 18:42police again you [ __ ] are lucky
490. 18:44she didn't hurt
491. 18:46herself Christine spent the next several
492. 18:48days in a fog of grief making plans to
493. 18:50bury her child and police made plans to
494. 18:53pin the fire on her they even reportedly
495. 18:56attended the funeral services watching
496. 18:59judging her while she laid her child to
497. 19:01rest now this makes me just sad that
498. 19:04these people share mying air the
499. 19:07firefighter that had retrieved Tony's
500. 19:09body from the fire reported to
501. 19:10investigators that the door to his
502. 19:12bedroom had been obstructed now he
503. 19:14believed that a chair was the likely
504. 19:16culprit put across the child's door fire
505. 19:19investigators determined that burn
506. 19:21patterns on the floor indicated an
507. 19:23accelerant had been poured on the floor
508. 19:25and identified that there were multiple
509. 19:26points of origin which is a common thing
510. 19:29that you see in arson people tend to not
511. 19:31light arson in one spot they tend to
512. 19:32light multiple fires that's more
513. 19:35effective efficient they suspected that
514. 19:38Christine had used a gas can they found
515. 19:40outside the trailer to pour accelerant
516. 19:41around the living room and around the
517. 19:43room where Tony was sleeping to light
518. 19:44the fire now I've talked in some of my
519. 19:46Instagram Reals in the past about arson
520. 19:48investigation myths and unfortunately
521. 19:50this is a case of an investigator being
522. 19:52taught a falsehood as fact he identified
523. 19:54burn patterns he was taught to believe
524. 19:56were signs of an accelerant you see when
525. 19:59you pour an accelerant on the floor it
526. 20:00can leave any regularly shaped burn
527. 20:02pattern however these types of irregular
528. 20:04burn patterns can be caused in other
529. 20:06ways also another cause of these types
530. 20:08of patterns is flashover and we have
531. 20:12reports from eyewitnesses that when the
532. 20:14window to the room was broken the fire
533. 20:16rapidly intensified and the entire room
534. 20:18was on fire that is flashover for those
535. 20:21of you that don't understand flashover
536. 20:23in a fire it's the solid it's not solids
537. 20:26that burn the solids vaporize those
538. 20:29Vapors come off the solids they mix with
539. 20:31oxygen and once a fire grows large
540. 20:34enough such that all of the fuel load in
541. 20:36a room begins off gassing together and
542. 20:38mixes with oxygen in the right
543. 20:40concentrations it can all sort of ignite
544. 20:42at once and to a Layman viewing
545. 20:45flashover it's sort of the transition
546. 20:46point between when someone might say
547. 20:48there's a fire in that room to saying
548. 20:51that room is on fire if you've seen a
549. 20:54video of a room on fire you know what
550. 20:56I'm talking about it sort of looks like
551. 20:58even the smoke is on fire and pouring
552. 21:00out of the room and it is deadly and
553. 21:03intense and it's an important transition
554. 21:05point in a compartment fire you know
555. 21:08sometimes when you uh get your picture
556. 21:10taken you see a little red light and
557. 21:12then the flash mhm that's the difference
558. 21:16yeah you can see it's happening right
559. 21:18but then bam it does there's no mistake
560. 21:21in that there's no mistaking so we know
561. 21:24that once the window to the room where
562. 21:25Tony was sleeping broke the fire
563. 21:28instantaneously intensified and Flames
564. 21:30was shoot Flames were shooting out of
565. 21:32the windows all of the sudden so this
566. 21:34indicates to us that this fire has
567. 21:35reached a flashover state now flashover
568. 21:38can cause those irregularly shaped burn
569. 21:40patterns on the floor the deal is is
570. 21:42that flashover usually involves a lot of
571. 21:45fire at the ceiling level all those
572. 21:47gases ignite at once and because of the
573. 21:50intense and sudden radiant heating they
574. 21:53can radiate heat downwards and create
575. 21:56irregularly shaped Barn patterns on the
576. 21:57floor so the same kinds of burn patterns
577. 22:00can be interpreted completely
578. 22:02differently before flashover and after
579. 22:05flashover there a yeah there's a
580. 22:06different duration of involvement right
581. 22:09yes if you saw an accelerant you'd see
582. 22:11immediate involvement and there's going
583. 22:13to be a delay in the flash well even if
584. 22:16even a fire started by accelerant can go
585. 22:18to flash over but you might not right
586. 22:20but it's going to be faster right it
587. 22:22might be it just depends on the
588. 22:24accelerant they use but the deal is that
589. 22:27you
590. 22:28if you see a regularly shaped burn
591. 22:30patterns in a room that hasn't gone to
592. 22:32flashover there's still other things you
593. 22:34need to look at before you decide that
594. 22:35those are accelerant patterns but after
595. 22:38a flashover you cannot rely on
596. 22:40irregularly shaped burn patterns as
597. 22:41positive proof of an accelerant yeah cuz
598. 22:44it makes a mess of carbon and stuff
599. 22:46right yeah the other thing that can
600. 22:48cause these irregularly shaped burn
601. 22:49patterns is When Things fall from the
602. 22:53ceiling in fires ceilings burn they can
603. 22:57fall down and create a regular shape
604. 22:58burn patterns or things like bookshelves
605. 23:00and stuff can flip over and spill things
606. 23:03on the floor that can burn and then
607. 23:05another thing that you can create
608. 23:06irregularly shaped burn patterns is
609. 23:08Plastics and polyurethanes and most of
610. 23:10the Furnitures and mattresses and things
611. 23:12we use now are full of polyurethane foam
612. 23:15and polyurethane tends to melt before it
613. 23:17burns so it'll melt and create a pool on
614. 23:19the floor and then ignite creating burn
615. 23:22patterns that look just like accelerant
616. 23:25type burn patterns so investigators
617. 23:27can't just look at in a regularly shaped
618. 23:29pattern and make it a termination you
619. 23:30have to look at so many other aspects of
620. 23:33the fire and once flashovers occurred a
621. 23:35lot of those signature things about a
622. 23:39fire become completely unusable because
623. 23:41there's so many other things that can
624. 23:42cause them that you have to really
625. 23:45understand fire Dynamics and the physics
626. 23:46of fire to be able to pick apart what's
627. 23:48left after a fire and make a concrete
628. 23:50determination so there's another
629. 23:52important thing to remember when we talk
630. 23:55about the sudden intensification of the
631. 23:56fire when the window is broken this
632. 23:58indicates another really important
633. 24:00transition in the fire because there is
634. 24:03a sudden inrush of oxygen that allowed
635. 24:05this fire to intensify so drastically
636. 24:08that means that this is a point where we
637. 24:09transitioned from an oxygen limited fire
638. 24:12to a fuel limited fire and this is why
639. 24:15firefighters are very careful about
640. 24:17where and how they ventilate a fire
641. 24:19ideally in a fire we want as much
642. 24:21ventilation as possible because the more
643. 24:23heat and smoke we can release the better
644. 24:25the visibility the safer it is to fight
645. 24:26the fire with interior attack methods
646. 24:29however if you ventilate an oxygen
647. 24:31limited fire you will cause a sudden
648. 24:34intensification of the fire and this is
649. 24:37why firefighters often carefully choose
650. 24:39where they ventilate a fire especially
651. 24:41if they know that there may still be
652. 24:42someone inside because the fire will
653. 24:45move toward the ventilation path so if
654. 24:48they know where victims are they may
655. 24:50choose to ventilate areas remote from
656. 24:53where they believe the victim is to try
657. 24:55to pull the products of combustion away
658. 24:57from that compartment
659. 24:59so let's talk about a ventilation
660. 25:01limited fire for a minute because I
661. 25:02think most people don't really
662. 25:04understand what happens in a fire so if
663. 25:06we have a burning compartment the fire
664. 25:09will ignite flames and heat from the
665. 25:11fire heat up other fuels to the point
666. 25:14that they vaporize that Vapor mixes with
667. 25:15oxygen into a combustible concentration
668. 25:18and then will flame now if you have too
669. 25:21rich of an environment which is where
670. 25:22you have too much fuel Vapor because
671. 25:24there's a lot of heat but there's not
672. 25:25enough oxygen mixed in it will have the
673. 25:28effect of smothering the fire and it can
674. 25:31completely smother it out but more
675. 25:32typically in a house fire where there's
676. 25:34still some oxygen getting in it'll go
677. 25:37into a smoldering State now you may have
678. 25:40seen this if you have a fireplace with a
679. 25:42glass doors on it or a wood stove when
680. 25:45you fill up the burn compartment and the
681. 25:48wood is burning and then you choke down
682. 25:50the air the fire slows way down and
683. 25:53you'll get like a long slow smoldering
684. 25:55but then when you open it again to add
685. 25:57wood in and you get that sudden in Rush
686. 25:58of oxygen sometimes you'll get that sort
687. 25:59of poof of flames and that's what
688. 26:02happened when they broke the window to
689. 26:03the boy's room so we had a oxygen
690. 26:06limited fire and now it has all of this
691. 26:08oxygen available to it and it becomes a
692. 26:10fuel limited fire meaning it will burn
693. 26:12until either someone puts it out or it
694. 26:14runs out of fuel just like
695. 26:16Backdraft similar to
696. 26:19Backdraft in a fuel limited fire that
697. 26:21would be where we have a compartment
698. 26:23that's constantly allowing enough fresh
699. 26:24air to mix in with the fuel Vapors um
700. 26:27and so it's only limited by the amount
701. 26:30of fuel available now this is
702. 26:31interesting in this case because in
703. 26:33Christine's accounts of the
704. 26:35fire in all the accounts I could find
705. 26:38she woke up and it was foggy and it took
706. 26:40her a minute to realize that it was
707. 26:41smoke and then she sees Flames after she
708. 26:43wakes up now we know the ceiling
709. 26:46collapsed and I don't know exactly where
710. 26:48in the timeline that the ceiling
711. 26:49collapsed but we're going to find out
712. 26:50later from new fire experts brought in
713. 26:52to look at the case that they believe
714. 26:54the fire initially started in the
715. 26:56ceiling of the trailer possibly an
716. 26:58electrical fire and the area above the
717. 27:01ceiling and below the roof of the
718. 27:03trailer it's not very large and it makes
719. 27:05sense to me that if the fire started
720. 27:07there it would have likely gone to a
721. 27:09smoldering fire for a long time until it
722. 27:11finally he was heated up the structure
723. 27:13holding up the ceiling enough that it
724. 27:16allowed it to collapse now the thing is
725. 27:19most people don't realize this the
726. 27:21ceiling of a trailer is not usually gyps
727. 27:23and board it's usually these thin panels
728. 27:26they can be metal sometimes they're sort
729. 27:27of a laminated type of more robust
730. 27:30cardboard type of material it would have
731. 27:33burned through and collapsed faster than
732. 27:35if it was a gypson board ceiling so when
733. 27:37the ceiling collapsed in one area we
734. 27:39would have seen a sudden intense flaming
735. 27:42similar to what we saw when the window
736. 27:44broke but on a smaller scale as air
737. 27:46entered that ceiling area from the
738. 27:48living compartment and as those burning
739. 27:50materials fell to the floor they would
740. 27:51have flared up however this means that
741. 27:54the fire would have been pumping carbon
742. 27:56monoxide into these compartment where
743. 27:58Christine and Tony were sleeping for
744. 28:00probably a good long while so
745. 28:02Christine's waking up in in a box of
746. 28:05burning ass right but she wakes up
747. 28:09miraculously even in the absence of
748. 28:11smoke detectors and I don't know for
749. 28:13sure that she didn't have smoke
750. 28:14detectors but in none of the accounts I
751. 28:16read did they indicate the presence of
752. 28:18smoke detectors so I believe there was
753. 28:20no smoke detectors have you ever seen a
754. 28:22smoke detector in a trailer mhm you yeah
755. 28:25mhm I don't remember
756. 28:28I mean we probably had some stuck up
757. 28:30there but like yeah I used to babysit
758. 28:32for a family that lived in a trailer and
759. 28:34they had smoke detectors I know this cuz
760. 28:36the battery got low one day right about
761. 28:39nap time when I was really looking
762. 28:40forward to putting the baby down for a
763. 28:42nap and the smoke detector decided now's
764. 28:46my
765. 28:47time well smoke detectors always go off
766. 28:51inappropriately at the right times all
767. 28:53right so I don't know if they had smoke
768. 28:54detectors so if they didn't then the
769. 28:56fact that Christine woke up at all is
770. 28:58miraculous because of the amount of
771. 29:01carbon monoxide that would have been
772. 29:02infiltrating the interior compartments
773. 29:05of the trailer during this fire so by
774. 29:08the time she wakes up She's suffering
775. 29:10from severe confusion from hypoxia and
776. 29:12carbon monoxide it would have been
777. 29:13really intense and I'm really impressed
778. 29:15that she even had enough wherewithal and
779. 29:17adrenaline dump to try to fight the fire
780. 29:19at all at first or look for the fire
781. 29:21extinguisher even though she couldn't
782. 29:22find it and I think a lot of people
783. 29:24might look at her and say why didn't she
784. 29:26just get to the baby first and instead
785. 29:28of trying to fight the fire but I want
786. 29:29you to remember she fell asleep with him
787. 29:31on the couch and he got up while she was
788. 29:33asleep and went into the front room now
789. 29:36on some accounts she reportedly told
790. 29:38police she thought he was in the front
791. 29:40room but nowhere does she say she was
792. 29:42absolutely sure he was in the front room
793. 29:44and she could have been wrong so I I
794. 29:47don't think that her actions here are
795. 29:48completely illogical and I think they
796. 29:51can absolutely be explained by the
797. 29:53hypoxia that she was suffering from he
798. 29:56could have been elsewhere in the trailer
799. 29:58I don't disagree with that a bit so the
800. 30:00Flames are growing now because if my
801. 30:02theory that this started in the
802. 30:05ceiling and then the ceiling collapsed
803. 30:07holds true the fire now has the
804. 30:10remaining oxygen inside the trailer
805. 30:11living space to use and that's why she
806. 30:13describes it as suddenly there was a
807. 30:15wall of fire between her and the baby
808. 30:17however these Flames are going to
809. 30:19quickly use up the oxygen available in
810. 30:21the trailer and just like in a wood
811. 30:23stove they're going to go down to
812. 30:25smoldering but that doesn't mean that
813. 30:27it's not going to be that doesn't mean
814. 30:29that the the conditions are any more
815. 30:31tenable because the room is going to be
816. 30:35full of thick black oily smoke you're
817. 30:38not going to be able to see and remember
818. 30:41that the way a wood stove works is it's
819. 30:43intended to smolder for a long period of
820. 30:45time because of how hot smoldering is so
821. 30:47you're not going to get a relief from
822. 30:49the flames you know I've been involved
823. 30:50in a lot of fires and you know I've
824. 30:52kicked open doors and done stuff uh
825. 30:55those weren't a flash room mhm they
826. 30:58weren't they were just on fire they were
827. 31:01just on fire it's different like it's
828. 31:04like a birthday candle next to hell or
829. 31:07something it is and I think a lot of
830. 31:09people think that the fact that the fire
831. 31:11flashed over after she broke the window
832. 31:13means that the conditions inside the
833. 31:14house were tenable they would not have
834. 31:17been tenable we basically would have
835. 31:18already had a very sort of SM small
836. 31:21flashover in the above ceiling area when
837. 31:23the ceiling first collapsed and that's
838. 31:25what she was likely dealing with when
839. 31:26she exited the trailer
840. 31:28and try to get back in from the outside
841. 31:31I've seen the those conditions but not
842. 31:34like right in my face right so all I can
843. 31:37do is imagine it's way different than
844. 31:40looking over a flaming wall or flaming
845. 31:44doorway or something
846. 31:46it's it's like looking right at the
847. 31:49devil's dick that yeah so this fire has
848. 31:54suddenly gone to Flaming for her so she
849. 31:56runs to get her friend that babysits
850. 31:59Tony and wake him up to get help and the
851. 32:01fire may have started to die down to
852. 32:03smoldering here and then they break the
853. 32:05window and that's when they get all of
854. 32:07that inrush of oxygen that mixes with
855. 32:09all of that fuel that's been off gassing
856. 32:13and that's when we get that flash over
857. 32:17the fire seems to burst out of the
858. 32:18windows and Christine is still trying to
859. 32:20get in and get to Tony but her neighbors
860. 32:23they were right to prevent her from
861. 32:24getting back into that window because
862. 32:26she surely would have been killed
863. 32:29and it's worth mentioning that the fire
864. 32:31investigators were once taught that you
865. 32:32can always tell the point of origin in a
866. 32:34fire by determining where the most
867. 32:36damage occurred however scientific tests
868. 32:39have proven that this is not the case
869. 32:42what determines a fire's intensity in a
870. 32:44specific location is heavily influenced
871. 32:47by ventilation Pathways available to the
872. 32:49fire in one study researchers set
873. 32:51compartments on fire with a ventilation
874. 32:53opening like a window or a door and in
875. 32:55each case the fire was started a away
876. 32:58from the window or door but in every
877. 33:00single incidence the most damage
878. 33:02occurred directly opposite of that
879. 33:04ventilation
880. 33:05opening and because we know that once
881. 33:09the window broke the fire flashed over
882. 33:11it's likely that the investigators
883. 33:14theories that multiple points of origin
884. 33:16which included points of origin in the
885. 33:17child's room were completely false that
886. 33:20this was just a result of the flashover
887. 33:22and the massive influx of oxygen that
888. 33:25occurred now I'm happy to report that
889. 33:27fire investigators have come a long way
890. 33:29and we have a better understanding of
891. 33:31what's myth and what's backed up by fact
892. 33:33that doesn't mean that there aren't some
893. 33:34areas where maybe some of these old
894. 33:36myths still live healthy lives but
895. 33:39they're being squashed out and
896. 33:43yay yeah now one of the things that
897. 33:46should have been of major importance
898. 33:48here and to fire investigators was the
899. 33:49medical reports about Tony's death if
900. 33:51Tony had died of thermal injuries then
901. 33:53it's much more likely that the
902. 33:55investigators theories that Christine
903. 33:57put accelerant in his room and ignited
904. 33:58it might have been plausible but if
905. 34:01Tony's Airways weren't burned then that
906. 34:03would have indicated that he ceased
907. 34:05breathing before the his room was really
908. 34:09hot and had Flames that could reach
909. 34:11him but the original trial court from
910. 34:14what I could find it I don't have the
911. 34:15court record so I'm reading reports and
912. 34:18I'm reading the reports from appeals but
913. 34:22it doesn't appear that the original
914. 34:23trial court addressed Tony's cause of
915. 34:26death in the trial
916. 34:28yes and I'm I'm sure you're going to get
917. 34:30the motive mhm yeah that's next I'm um
918. 34:34postively awaiting the motive
919. 34:38okay so I know I'm doing a lot of
920. 34:41surmising here and we're going to get to
921. 34:43evaluate my analysis of the events of
922. 34:45the fire because we are going to be
923. 34:47talking about what experts determined as
924. 34:49they worked to exonerate Christine I
925. 34:51wrote this portion that we just went
926. 34:53through of the case before I read the
927. 34:56expert reports because I wanted to form
928. 34:59my own opinions about what I could glean
929. 35:03and what would have been important
930. 35:04before I read what the experts found
931. 35:06because I don't have access to all the
932. 35:08photos and all of the data that they
933. 35:09have fair enough but fire investigators
934. 35:13were certain that this fire was arson
935. 35:14and that because the firefighter that
936. 35:16retrieved Tony's body from the front
937. 35:18room reported that he ran into an
938. 35:20obstruction they believed their working
939. 35:22theory was that Christine had poured
940. 35:23accelerant in the living room and the
941. 35:25front room lit multiple fires and intent
942. 35:27Ally blockaded the door to Tony's room
943. 35:29so he couldn't
944. 35:30escape however like you said the ceiling
945. 35:33of the front room collapsed and I don't
946. 35:35get a clear picture from any of the
947. 35:36discussions of the evidence exactly when
948. 35:38it
949. 35:39collapsed but I suspect that the debris
950. 35:42that they the firefighter actually had
951. 35:44to crawl through because when you're in
952. 35:45a fire like that you cannot see you
953. 35:48can't
954. 35:50you you can't see nothing dude I don't
955. 35:53care if you have a visor on you there's
956. 35:55no visibility I suspect that what he
957. 35:57actually crawled over was probably that
958. 36:00collapsed ceiling and later they found a
959. 36:02chair in the debris but remember that a
960. 36:04chair in the debris could have been
961. 36:05there at the time of the fire it could
962. 36:07have been put there after the fire
963. 36:08during overhaul operations it could have
964. 36:10been moved there by fire hoses it could
965. 36:12have been knocked there by the ceiling
966. 36:14falling down like there's so many
967. 36:15explanations for a chair being near the
968. 36:17area of the doorway yeah now 5 days
969. 36:21after the fire Christine realizes that
970. 36:23they're going to be accusing her of
971. 36:25killing her son and so she goes to the
972. 36:27pleas and requests to take a polygraph
973. 36:29test to prove her innocence oh she
974. 36:31requested it
975. 36:33mhm now in the polygraph test the person
976. 36:35administering the test asked her if she
977. 36:37set the Blaze and she denied that she
978. 36:39said it but later in the test he told
979. 36:42her well I don't believe that you told
980. 36:44the truth about not setting the fire and
981. 36:45so why did you do it now she's 21 she's
982. 36:49scared she's upset she's grieving she's
983. 36:52probably at this point horrified that
984. 36:53this guy has given her the impression
985. 36:55that she exhibited some sort of negative
986. 36:59response on the question of whether or
987. 37:01not she set the fire needs a negative
988. 37:03elbow so what she said was I don't know
989. 37:07I don't remember doing it and that was
990. 37:10enough of a confession for the police to
991. 37:12feel certain that they had Jesus Christ
992. 37:15everything everything about this
993. 37:16investigation was unethical
994. 37:19everything what was Christine's alleged
995. 37:22motive well they said that she was young
996. 37:25and overwhelmed at being a mom and she
997. 37:27didn't didn't want to be a mom anymore
998. 37:28so she intentionally set this fire to
999. 37:30kill her son now no one in Christine's
1000. 37:33life corroborated this assertion that
1001. 37:34she was tired of being a mom not one
1002. 37:36person this guy's going to get a
1003. 37:39negative smecker award a not
1004. 37:42smecker but police said that they had
1005. 37:45interviewed one of Christine's friends
1006. 37:47and she told them that Christine had
1007. 37:49asked her the year prior to the fire to
1008. 37:52take custody of Tony I'm sorry who's
1009. 37:55Tony the baby yeah
1010. 37:58but again this would prove to be nothing
1011. 38:00more than an investigator twisting the
1012. 38:02truth the friend actually cleared up
1013. 38:03this assertion in court but the police
1014. 38:06continued to push the narrative that
1015. 38:08Christine was fed up with being
1016. 38:10irresponsible mother and money was
1017. 38:11really tight and she was working too
1018. 38:13hard and it was a lot for a 21-year-old
1019. 38:15that had dropped out of school in nth
1020. 38:16grade and she just wanted to go back to
1021. 38:18doing whatever she wanted and partying
1022. 38:20it up with her friends instead of making
1023. 38:21different
1024. 38:23decisions now the question also came up
1025. 38:25of whether or not there could be a
1026. 38:26financial motive but the answer was no
1027. 38:27Christine didn't have life insurance on
1028. 38:29Tony she didn't have insurance on the
1029. 38:30trailer she didn't even have car
1030. 38:31insurance there was no Financial benefit
1031. 38:34to her setting her home on
1032. 38:37fire but police arrested Christine and
1033. 38:40she sat in jail for 4 months grieving
1034. 38:43her son in the decer county lockup now
1035. 38:45she describes these days as incredibly
1036. 38:47Bleak she says she didn't care if she
1037. 38:49woke up or not and Christine was
1038. 38:51assigned a public defender and finally
1039. 38:53after 4 months in lockup she was
1040. 38:55released on bond to await trial that is
1041. 38:58brutal that makes me angry While She Was
1042. 39:01Out on bond Christine struggling to cope
1043. 39:04with what had become of her life and
1044. 39:06trying to cope with the death of her
1045. 39:07baby and the fact that she was facing a
1046. 39:09murder trial and being accused of being
1047. 39:11an arsonist she admits that during this
1048. 39:13time she self-medicated with alcohol and
1049. 39:16other substances and I don't think
1050. 39:17anyone can really blame her you better
1051. 39:19not or face me and she met a man and had
1052. 39:22a fling only to find out later that he
1053. 39:24was married but he had gotten her
1054. 39:26pregnant during in that fling so now
1055. 39:29she's awaiting trial on murder and arson
1056. 39:31charges and she's pregnant now it seems
1057. 39:34like a really bad situation to be in but
1058. 39:36Christine credits her second son with
1059. 39:38giving her the will to fight for justice
1060. 39:40and not just that gave her a reason to
1061. 39:42live and not give up and so she said
1062. 39:44that this child that she never intended
1063. 39:46to create ended up saving her life hell
1064. 39:49yeah now the prosecutor came to
1065. 39:52Christine and offered to drop the murder
1066. 39:54charge in exchange for Christine
1067. 39:55pleading guilty to arson in return she
1068. 39:58would accept a 15-year sentence but
1069. 40:00remember Christine's just found out
1070. 40:01she's pregnant and she believed that the
1071. 40:04truth would Prevail she had not set this
1072. 40:06fire and she has this new baby to
1073. 40:08consider could she realistically give up
1074. 40:10the first 15 years of his life and not
1075. 40:12be there so she decided to go to trial
1076. 40:16but remember she's a single mother a
1077. 40:18high school dropout she's living in a
1078. 40:19trailer park and in the court of public
1079. 40:22opinion no one was really on our side
1080. 40:25because in 1995 when Christine's trial
1081. 40:28began the year before Christine's trial
1082. 40:30began the court of public opinion was
1083. 40:33massively swayed by a hugely important
1084. 40:37court case you see the year before
1085. 40:39Christine's trial Susan Smith had been
1086. 40:41on trial Susan Smith was a South
1087. 40:43Carolina woman all over the front pages
1088. 40:46of news Nationwide in the infamous case
1089. 40:49where she killed her own children add to
1090. 40:51all these cards seemingly stacked
1091. 40:53against Christine the fact that her
1092. 40:56public defender
1093. 40:57never once been involved in a murder
1094. 40:59trial not as a prosecutor not as a
1095. 41:02Defender and that's not all there's one
1096. 41:04more huge strike coming two days before
1097. 41:07her trial began newspapers in the county
1098. 41:09ran a front page story that said Bunch
1099. 41:12told David M singer of the Indiana State
1100. 41:15Police during an interview that she
1101. 41:17quote didn't know unquote why she had
1102. 41:20started the fire you small town need to
1103. 41:23start checking your facts way more
1104. 41:25closely
1105. 41:27so they took the statement she had made
1106. 41:29in the polygraph when she was told that
1107. 41:33they believe she was being dishonest and
1108. 41:34they turned it they took it out of
1109. 41:36context and used it to plaster on the
1110. 41:39front page to say that she was guilty
1111. 41:41despite the odds stacked against her
1112. 41:43Christine went to trial beginning
1113. 41:44February 26th
1114. 41:461996 in the prosecution's opening
1115. 41:48statements they told the jury that they
1116. 41:49were not going to be presenting a motive
1117. 41:51because motive wasn't required for a
1118. 41:53murder conviction and we're going to be
1119. 41:54talking a lot
1120. 41:56more oh what the did you just say okay
1121. 42:00let me try that again in the
1122. 42:01prosecution's opening statements they
1123. 42:03told the jury that they wouldn't be
1124. 42:04presenting a motive because motive
1125. 42:06wasn't required for a murder conviction
1126. 42:08no I heard you why is motive not that's
1127. 42:12not true right well I wanted to talk
1128. 42:15about that so we talked about in the
1129. 42:18David Crawford case that the motive the
1130. 42:22prosecution argued that we don't have to
1131. 42:24understand someone's motive to believe
1132. 42:26that they had motive right like we don't
1133. 42:29have to agree that whatever they saw as
1134. 42:33their motive would make sense to us as
1135. 42:35motive understand and relate are not the
1136. 42:37same term exactly but the question that
1137. 42:41you can understand something it it it'd
1138. 42:43be so far removed from whatever you
1139. 42:46would think of you could still get it
1140. 42:48but be like no uh
1141. 42:52shame so in later appeals Christine said
1142. 42:57that the fact that the prosecution said
1143. 42:59that and that the jury instructions
1144. 43:01included that the prosecution didn't
1145. 43:04have to prove
1146. 43:06motive shifted doesn't they have to
1147. 43:09prove motive right they have to present
1148. 43:11motive it's up to the jury to decide if
1149. 43:13they proved it or not right well that's
1150. 43:16whether they proved it or not is whether
1151. 43:18they believe it right so you could go to
1152. 43:21a jury without a motive you could if you
1153. 43:24had concrete evidence like there's a
1154. 43:26video in 900 people saw why he did it
1155. 43:28but look here look watch him doing it
1156. 43:32but in a case like this I think motive
1157. 43:34matters so in appeals Christine pointed
1158. 43:38out that by telling the jury they didn't
1159. 43:41have to consider motive it reduced the
1160. 43:43burden of proof that the state is bound
1161. 43:45to and I kind of agree that if you tell
1162. 43:49the jury hey look we've got means and
1163. 43:54was it motive means and opportunity
1164. 43:56thank you we've got means an opportunity
1165. 43:58and we don't have to prove motive to you
1166. 43:59in a case like this I do think it
1167. 44:01reduces the burden on the prosecution in
1168. 44:05appropriately but we'll be talking about
1169. 44:07this more in I can dig that in certain
1170. 44:09circumstances right that
1171. 44:11makes but not in this one no like it
1172. 44:15wasn't so many things weren't even like
1173. 44:19and maybe lawyers would have a different
1174. 44:20perspective on this and feel free to
1175. 44:21reach out to me crime
1176. 44:24gmail.com what who put the blinders on
1177. 44:26the investig that's kind of what I want
1178. 44:28to know at this point right that's a
1179. 44:30bigger investigation maybe sounds like
1180. 44:32they put them on themselves that's the
1181. 44:34worst kind right the worst kind of
1182. 44:36delusion is the one you just accept
1183. 44:38willingly all right so during the trial
1184. 44:40the prosecution they called the
1185. 44:41firefighter that testified that the
1186. 44:43chair was blocking the room door where
1187. 44:44the toddler was they highlighted the
1188. 44:46inconsistencies in Christine's
1189. 44:48statements to police immediately
1190. 44:49following the fire and the thing is is
1191. 44:51that her defense attorney failed to
1192. 44:53point out in court that exposure to
1193. 44:55carbon monoxide causes confusion in
1194. 44:57memory loss it's a huge failing if you
1195. 44:59ask me who doesn't know that now the
1196. 45:01police said that this friend of
1197. 45:03Christine's had told them that Christine
1198. 45:04offered her friend custody of Tony the
1199. 45:06year before the fire well this friend
1200. 45:08testified on behalf of the defense and
1201. 45:09she clarified her statements what she
1202. 45:12said was the year before Christine had
1203. 45:14been having a really hard time and she
1204. 45:16went to this friend and said look if
1205. 45:17something happens to me will you and
1206. 45:19your husband take custody of Tony she
1207. 45:21was looking to make sure that her child
1208. 45:23was taken care of in the event that
1209. 45:25something ever happened to her also a
1210. 45:28bunch of people testified at trial that
1211. 45:30Christine was a doting mother that she
1212. 45:32had never given any indication that she
1213. 45:33didn't want to be a mother or was tired
1214. 45:35of being a mother or any of
1215. 45:37that uh Christine did tell her attorney
1216. 45:40that she didn't feel emotionally stable
1217. 45:41enough to testify at trial and he agreed
1218. 45:44so she did not take the stand in her own
1219. 45:45defense which is her constitutional
1220. 45:47right and Christine when she talks about
1221. 45:49that trial she talks about being so
1222. 45:52emotionally bed that she say she wasn't
1223. 45:54even paying attention during most of the
1224. 45:56trial like she just was sitting there
1225. 45:58going through the motions I dissociate
1226. 46:00during this podcast and it ain't
1227. 46:02involving me now the most daming piece
1228. 46:05of evidence that the prosecution
1229. 46:07presented was the report produced by a
1230. 46:09forensic chemist from the Bureau of
1231. 46:11Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms in this
1232. 46:14report the chemist indicated that he
1233. 46:16found traces of a heavy Petroleum
1234. 46:18distillate in the samples that were
1235. 46:19taken from both the living room floor as
1236. 46:22well as the floor of the room where Tony
1237. 46:23passed so was it plastic well the
1238. 46:27defense didn't have the samples
1239. 46:29independently tested they didn't hire a
1240. 46:31friends at chemist to refute the claims
1241. 46:33of the report but the defense attorney
1242. 46:36did bring in their own fire investigator
1243. 46:38that testified that he disagreed with
1244. 46:40the Fire Marshal's office and he
1245. 46:41believed the cause of the fire was
1246. 46:42electrical and it started up in the
1247. 46:45ceiling now the jury deliberated and
1248. 46:47ultimately came to the unanimous
1249. 46:49decision that Christine was guilty of
1250. 46:50arson and felony murder a month later
1251. 46:53during sentencing the judge specifically
1252. 46:55criticized Christine for for quote
1253. 46:57intentionally getting pregnant unquote
1254. 47:00to attempt to Garner support and he
1255. 47:02sentenced her to 60 years in prison at
1256. 47:05the age of 22 Christine 6 months
1257. 47:07pregnant was transferred to the Indiana
1258. 47:10women's
1259. 47:11prison but Christine was actually
1260. 47:14innocent and that expert from the ATF
1261. 47:18he'd allegedly colluded with
1262. 47:19investigators to lie in court and in his
1263. 47:23report and we're going to get into
1264. 47:25exactly what that false testimony he
1265. 47:27gave was and how it finally came to
1266. 47:28light on the next episode as we get into
1267. 47:30Christine's fight to be exonerated on
1268. 47:32crime to
1269. 47:34burn no I don't think I should have
1270. 47:36something that nice am I in your way
1271. 47:39now yeah but it feels
1272. 47:42better it feels real nice just sounds
1273. 47:46awful let's do it alien of
1274. 47:49duct apparently I'm going to be an
1275. 47:51astronaut what are you talking about BL
1276. 47:54blah blah slow too slow to read sounded
1277. 47:58sparkly my beard is a home for many
1278. 48:01birds and other species sometimes
1279. 48:04mammals our on air light's not on we
1280. 48:06can't work like this she's pretending to
1281. 48:09be innocent she knows the inuendo to
1282. 48:12which I was referring oh that's better
1283. 48:15yeah now we can get down to B now it
1284. 48:17feels
1285. 48:19right don't ever do that
1286. 48:21again I only said that cuz you won't let
1287. 48:24me make the fa Bean sound slightly
1288. 48:27intoxicated but not hypoxic so
1289. 48:34by my oxygen mine door fart skinny
1290. 48:39Chad's friends coming out to play what
1291. 48:41were you going to say I don't remember
1292. 48:44hey here's a PSA the air fryer setting
1293. 48:47on your stove it's not the same as a
1294. 48:50regular air fryer don't put bacon in
1295. 48:52there don't put bacon in your stove on
1296. 48:54air fryer but the one time we we did
1297. 48:57that all the smoke detectors on the
1298. 49:00ground floor of our house went off and
1299. 49:03so me being the smart woman that I am I
1300. 49:05grabbed all of them and ran outside with
1301. 49:08them to try
1302. 49:10to so hilarious so the front door of the
1303. 49:14house is open Smoke's like pouring out
1304. 49:17of the front door of the house it's not
1305. 49:19like an involve it's not like an involve
1306. 49:21fire but there was definitely some steam
1307. 49:24smoke coming out of the front door of
1308. 49:25the house and I'm holding two screaming
1309. 49:28smoke detectors and it just so happens
1310. 49:29that at that moment the one set of
1311. 49:32neighbors that lives at the end of our
1312. 49:34street that I've never met before
1313. 49:36happened to be on a walk and walk into
1314. 49:40view and me for some stupid reason I was
1315. 49:44like hide the smoke detectors and so I
1316. 49:47hid them behind my back so I'm standing
1317. 49:49there for inexplicably with two
1318. 49:52screaming smoke detectors behind my back
1319. 49:54everything's normal here nothing's going
1320. 49:55on going on and I'm just like
1321. 49:59hey how are you and then they're like
1322. 50:03one eyebrow up we're good how are you so
1323. 50:09concerned and I just stood there with
1324. 50:11smoke detectors behind my back and then
1325. 50:14finally I realized I was not actually
1326. 50:15doing a good job of hiding anything
1327. 50:17because they're still screaming and so I
1328. 50:19just gave up and started waving the
1329. 50:21smoke detectors around again so my our
1330. 50:22neighbor's first introduction to us was
1331. 50:24me standing outside with leaving a
1332. 50:26couple of screaming smoke detectors
1333. 50:28around frantically so there you go that
1334. 50:31that honestly it sounds appropriate
1335. 50:34that's kind of like your thing run
1336. 50:36around around outside around around run
1337. 50:40around outside with some smoke detectors
1338. 50:42flailing about making a spectacle of
1339. 50:46yourself that's like a metaphor for this
1340. 50:49podcast can I apologize and redeem
1341. 50:51myself at this point yeah like as a
1342. 50:53person yeah if you could drool a little
1343. 50:56bit
1344. 50:57you say that don't lick your teeth just
1345. 51:00drool
1346. 51:01balls I think we should bomb rush them
1347. 51:05no I think we should absolutely invade
1348. 51:07them as thoroughly as
1349. 51:09possible don't touch that why can't I
1350. 51:13touch it thermite thermite's different
1351. 51:16from Clear Water but it would probably
1352. 51:19the tip of it might just barely touch
1353. 51:21Key West hasn't Florida been through
1354. 51:23enough in the past few months I think my
1355. 51:25work's done here today
1356. 51:27no no no no a don't don't wa don't take
1357. 51:30your smoke detectors on a walk attention
1358. 51:32good people of the world are you
1359. 51:34experiencing sudden unexplainable
1360. 51:37accusations you may be a victim of false
1361. 51:40accusation
1362. 51:41syndrome not every misplaced sock stolen
1363. 51:44pen or missing slice of pie is an
1364. 51:46international conspiracy it could be I
1365. 51:50can tell followed by intense eye
1366. 51:53contact blame the ghost blame the the
1367. 51:56dog blame the solar flares the alignment
1368. 51:59of the planets or if all else fails
1369. 52:02Mumble something about parallel universe
1370. 52:05where this totally happened unless
1371. 52:08someone actually believes you're
1372. 52:09plotting world domination because of a
1373. 52:11coffee spill jumping to conclusions is
1374. 52:15the only cardio some people get offer
1375. 52:18them a tinfoil hat innocent until proven
1376. 52:21munching on someone else's
1377. 52:24Pizza yeah here's a really long
1378. 52:34go that's going to be a lot of
1379. 52:37ducks I feel good about this one cuz of
1380. 52:40because of my stamina I don't know what
1381. 52:42to say right now I feel like a little
1382. 52:44girl I ah you made the
1383. 52:48noise all right sorry it's compulsory I
1384. 52:52working on it I love you I love you
1385. 52:55let's log off PE
1386. 53:06[Music]