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#1 UGC EXPERT Reveals How To Market Consumer Apps — Transcript

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0:00We have people spending anywhere from a
0:02quarter million to north of 700,000 on
0:06the platform.
0:07>> 700,000 per month.
0:09>> 700,000 per month. Yes, correct.
0:11>> Nick Lton co-founded Sideshift and
0:13basically every app you can think of
0:14runs their UGC creator campaigns through
0:16it. The interesting thing is Cursor is
0:19on there, but so are founders just
0:20starting out with a couple thousand
0:21bucks. Nick sees all of it, so he knows
0:24exactly which campaigns make money and
0:26which ones don't. So, we went deep on
0:28the whole thing and about 15 minutes in,
0:30he stops and says this.
0:31>> AI UGC great for vanity views, terrible
0:34for conversions at the end of the day.
0:36I've not seen it convert. This is not a
0:38guess, by the way. He's looking at the
0:39conversion data across hundreds of
0:41campaigns. And AI UGC just doesn't
0:43convert as well as humans. What actually
0:45works is way more boring than people
0:47want it to be. We went into what kind of
0:49content doesn't just get views, but
0:51actually converts to downloads and
0:52revenue for consumer apps. Then he broke
0:54down how the biggest spenders actually
0:56split their marketing budget.
0:58>> You have a creative organic budget which
1:00is about 20%. And then the absolute
1:03monolith of the budget is the
1:05performance budget and that accounts for
1:0680%.
1:07>> So making the content, paying all those
1:09creators, that's only 20%. The other 80%
1:12is just paying money to put the winners
1:14in front of more people. The signal Nick
1:16watches for is a 5% engagement rate. A
1:19video hits that and it gets ad spend.
1:20You can start with a $100 a day and the
1:22biggest teams are spending a h 100,000.
1:24In this episode, Nick walks through his
1:26entire process. His format research, how
1:28he avoids competitor saturation by
1:30tweaking videos 10 to 20%. His content
1:33market fit metrics, how he looks for at
1:34least one video that gets 10,000 views
1:37within the first 180 to 300 videos. And
1:40the 9010 split after he hits that first
1:42winner, 90% of your creators running the
1:45winner and 10% keep testing. If UGC is
1:47anywhere on your road map, you should
1:49watch this video before you spend a
1:50dollar. This is the Superwall podcast.
1:52I'm Joseph Choy, founder of Consumer
1:54Club, a Discord where top consumer app
1:56founders trade alpha and what's working
1:57now in growth. I've been talking to
1:58members doing a million ARR and they
2:00tell me they've been using these two
2:02tools. Superwall has this free AI tool
2:04trained on 422 profitable paywall
2:06experiments across thousands of
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2:12with the same number of users at
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2:16app's doing at least 100K MR, we host
2:18vetted dinners in SF and New York to
2:20hang out and network with other top app
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2:23form in the description. Also, these app
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2:52this is it. I got you guys a discount.
2:54You can use the code superwall or use
2:55the link below. I think where I want to
2:57start actually is what are some exciting
2:59customers you've seen popping off
3:01recently?
3:02>> Exciting customers popping off on
3:04Sideshift recently. You got to give a
3:06shout out to the cursor team. They've
3:08been absolutely crushing it lately. Um,
3:11obviously lot a lot of good stuff going
3:13on over there. Yeah, man. It's
3:15interesting to see UGC really start to
3:19trickle into some of these larger
3:21enterprise. I think when we started this
3:22thing, it was consumer apps that had
3:25just kind of started off but started
3:27out, but now we're seeing some of the
3:28biggest in the world use Sideshift and
3:30we're seeing them run massive GCU
3:32campaigns as well. Movies has [music]
3:35started to kind of pick up as well.
3:37think entertainment is a great type uh
3:40vertical for UGC. Obviously, it's
3:43predominantly all clipping right now,
3:46but I think, you know, there's a little
3:48bit of a of a title shift where we're
3:49starting to see some new types of
3:51content uh circulate, movies and songs.
3:54And
3:54>> that's pretty crazy that people I I
3:57never would have predicted that these
3:58big companies would start getting on
4:00UGC. For me, this all started with
4:02e-commerce and drop shipping and I see
4:03like Tik Tok shop creators doing it, but
4:05now like B2B brands doing it is is
4:07pretty crazy. Aside from the the huge
4:09brands, have you also seen like new
4:11customers, any any like new apps that
4:14sign up for Sideshift and then they just
4:16kind of see like immediate success? Have
4:19you seen any trends in like people that
4:21are able to do that?
4:22>> Yeah, 100% man. I I can't really share
4:24any names just because obviously they're
4:26they're growing and some people like to
4:28remain confidential. However, the amount
4:31of I mean, I guess I can talk about
4:33space, right? Right now, I'm sure as
4:35you're aware of it, the peptide GLP-1
4:37space has been absolutely ripping on the
4:39platform. There's a ton of peptide
4:40trackers using side shift for
4:42distribution. Kind of back to your
4:44original question. Yeah, I'm seeing tons
4:46and tons of uh new apps every day. Start
4:50with a small budget of maybe $2 to
4:53$4,000, see good results, and then from
4:55there, they start to scale aggressively.
4:57month to [music]
4:58you know
4:59>> I think a good a good way to start this
5:02pod I think I just want to go through
5:04that whole journey of when you first
5:08start with $2 to $4,000 like you said
5:10what type of validation are you even
5:12looking for when you're trying out UGC
5:14creators and then what's next and what's
5:16next after that like I think seeing like
5:18the complete workflow cuz you're one of
5:20these like rare people that can see the
5:23entire flow across hundreds of different
5:26customers and you've seen what works and
5:28what doesn't work. So, it'll be really
5:30valuable, I think, to hear that end to
5:32end like when you're just starting out
5:34until scaling up to I don't know how how
5:37much do like your top people spend on
5:39UGC?
5:40>> We have people spending anywhere from a
5:42quarter million to
5:45uh north north of 700,000 on the
5:49platform, right?
5:50>> 700,000 per month.
5:51>> 700,000 per month. Yes. Correct.
5:54>> Wow. That's insane. Okay. And like why
5:56are they spending that much? Is it like
5:58profitable or is it like for
6:00impressions?
6:00>> It's profitable. It's different. No
6:03other channel is working as well right
6:05now. Once you have the flywheel really
6:07going and you have content market fit
6:10across the board, you have a great
6:11creator engine, you really can start to
6:13see some pretty low CPMs across the
6:16board. And it's really just a matter of
6:17doubling down on creators that are
6:19working as well as formats that are
6:21working. Right? It's like it's a tale as
6:23old as time. It's easier said than done,
6:25of course. Obviously, some of these
6:26companies have massive resources of not
6:28only capital, but lots of time and human
6:31labor to help with this process, [music]
6:33but once the flywheel is absolutely
6:35running, it it becomes incredibly easy
6:37to sustain and grow.
6:39>> So, how do you start? Yeah. If you have
6:40that two, let's say a $4,000 budget,
6:42>> when you have your app built, there's a
6:44couple things that you should do before
6:46launching your YouTube campaign. I think
6:48the first and easiest is to go to Tik
6:51Tok, to go to Instagram, go to any of
6:53these platforms, search up any
6:56competitors you have in the [music]
6:58space. I think oftent times people get
7:00so overwhelmed with having to try and
7:03create a brand new format when in
7:05reality all you really need to do is
7:07just go and look at what competitors in
7:10your space are doing. Now, you don't
7:12need to blatantly rip them off, but you
7:14should start thinking about some
7:16potential formats that could be remixed
7:18about 10 to 20% and [music] then plug
7:20your product into those. So, I would say
7:23just start to get an idea of that before
7:25you even launch your first UGC campaign.
7:28And if you don't have $2 to $4,000, what
7:30you should do is you should still create
7:32these accounts yourself. Given that if
7:34you just launch an app, you're probably
7:36a small team. You might not have a lot
7:37of resources. is one of the best things
7:39you can do to just actually accelerate
7:40your business is by showing up every day
7:43with UGC. You have an idea of, you know,
7:47the type of content you're going to want
7:49to create. I would go ahead and I would
7:52launch a campaign. When you launch said
7:54campaign, you're going to want to pay
7:56anywhere from $600 to $800
8:00for 30 to 60 videos. You're going to
8:02also want to layer in view bonus
8:05incentives. What we found works really
8:07well is a structure of that guaranteed
8:10base retainer $600 to $800 with either
8:14an uncapped CPM because the idea is that
8:18if it's uncapped, you should be going
8:19viral and it should be bringing a lot
8:21more revenue to your app. However, if
8:23you want to cap the cap the upside, you
8:27can a little bit in order to just make
8:29sure that things are profitable. So,
8:31we'll say it's $600 to $800 with a
8:33dollar to $2 CPM either uncapped or
8:36capped. That seems to be the most
8:38fruitful for creators, which but also
8:42incentivizes them. Obviously, with a
8:44budget of between $2 to $4,000,
8:47you're going to be able to get
8:48substantial amount of volume that's
8:50going to really allow you to a to
8:52optimize solving for one problem in your
8:55first month, and that is finding content
8:57market fit. That is the thing that I
8:59think a lot of people overlook and it's
9:02also one of the things that leads to a
9:03lot of people to quit early on their UGC
9:06campaign.
9:07>> How do you define content market fit?
9:09Cuz let's say you have these $600 to
9:11$800 per month retainers for basically
9:15daily or twice daily videos per creator
9:18and you're looking at like $1 to $2
9:20CPMs. So you're looking for them to go
9:22viral. Like does content market fit mean
9:24you get just at least a couple of
9:26formats that go viral or is it like a
9:28certain CPM that you achieve or some
9:30other metric?
9:31>> I don't think it's a certain CPM in that
9:33first month and I don't think it's even
9:35necessarily going extremely viral.
9:38Right. Obviously that's a very clear
9:39indicator. But if you have a format that
9:42has lags, like I was saying, that's
9:44starting to show promise where it's
9:45getting, you know, above 10k views,
9:48maybe you have a couple different
9:49iterations of one kind of like [music]
9:51uh pillar format that's starting to go
9:54viral. I mean, everyone's definition is
9:56is different. I I consider something
9:57viral after 100K, but let's say at that
10:0010,000 view mark, right, you have
10:02[music] consistent videos that are kind
10:04of hitting that, maybe it's like five or
10:06six out of the entire campaign. That's
10:09kind of how I would define content
10:11market fit. From there, I'm analyzing
10:12watch time. I'm analyzing retention. Uh
10:15trying to understand like why those
10:17videos are working. And then, you know,
10:19I'm also doing this I'm very big on
10:23sharing all learnings with creators as
10:25I'm learning them. And the reason for
10:27that is I want these creators extremely
10:28bought in. And I also think that if
10:31you're managing if you're trying to
10:32manage creators one-on-one, you're going
10:33to have an extremely difficult time. The
10:35best way to manage everything is just by
10:37running it all in one massive group chat
10:39where everyone feels like a big family
10:40and you're sharing wins and learnings
10:42along the way. So, I'll be breaking down
10:44videos in a group chat, you know,
10:46saying, "Hey, like look at the watch
10:47time here. I'm curious if maybe we may
10:49maybe like do we think it's this word
10:51that really is worked really well for
10:53this video? Is it the audio? What is it?
10:55let's try and, you know, extrapolate
10:58these findings onto a couple more videos
11:00and see if we can really identify those
11:02variables that are driving the videos
11:04forward.
11:05>> So, you're you're just looking for like
11:0610,000 view videos or like uh like signs
11:09of videos that could get more views
11:13because it's it's like it's basically
11:14like product market fit where you don't
11:16need to see it's not really the scaling
11:18phase. It's just you need to know that
11:21some of these videos have potential uh
11:24because you're going to iterate with the
11:26creators and like be able to multiply
11:28the success. Um but then I'm curious
11:30like if there's existing
11:34formats out there, you know, in phase
11:36one you said you go on Tik Tok and
11:37Instagram and you search for videos in
11:40your niche that you know there's
11:42evidence that there could be something
11:44that works. What if you just copy the
11:46formats that already exist? Like
11:48shouldn't that take like have you seen
11:50people copy formats that already exist
11:51and then it should take like pretty it
11:54should be like pretty quick to find that
11:56that fit cuz it kind of the fit is
11:58already like validated in a way
11:59>> 100% right and the fit can definitely be
12:02there but I always urge people to remix
12:03it at least 10 to 20% so it's not a
12:06blatant poppy that avoids a couple
12:08issues right there off the bat. The
12:10other thing is those accounts have
12:12already warmed up in that audience
12:14extremely well, right? So, it's like
12:16they've built that account up usually
12:18over the span of a month or longer. Once
12:21you have kind of that warmed up account,
12:24then it's going to be a lot easier to
12:26kind of continue to pour gasoline on the
12:28fire, right? Don't get me wrong, and
12:29there's plenty of accounts that, [music]
12:31you know, will start day zero, they
12:33don't warm up properly, they don't have
12:34the audience, they'll copy the format
12:36exactly, and it doesn't necessarily
12:38work, [music] right? That's why if you
12:39can find a unique format that really
12:42isn't that unique. [music] It's it is a
12:44winning format that's copied, but it's
12:46remixed 10 to 20%. That will give your
12:49account a ton of validity through the
12:51algorithm. And from there, that's what's
12:53going to allow you to scale.
12:55>> I see. So, let's let's do an example
12:56like the peptide tracker niche. Um, we
13:00said that was a niche that's popping
13:02off. So, there's probably a lot of
13:04content already out there that's
13:05validated. So, like I just searched
13:07peptide tracker on Tik Tok and for
13:09example, let's just look at the first
13:11video. This is like a slideshow and it's
13:15just like looks like it's from a UG like
13:17a new UGC account. The first slide is
13:21a caption. It's like, "Hey, this app is
13:23so perf." And then it's just three
13:25slides. It's like another UI slide and
13:27then and it's just like a screenshot of
13:30the app. Like, and this video seems like
13:33this got like a couple thousand views at
13:34least. And there's like comments that
13:36are asking like what the app is.
13:38>> I mean, this brings up a whole other
13:39dilemma, right? Where AI I mean, I'm
13:42sure we can get in this. I'm sure you
13:43have you've had many people talk about
13:44this, but AI UGC great for vanity views,
13:47terrible for conversions at the end of
13:49the day. I've not seen it convert. As
13:52you can see here, like the user
13:53sentiment like isn't that great. Um
13:55[music] whereas people should be asking
13:57like what does, you know, what what's
14:00the app, what's this, what's that.
14:01That's like a true testament of [music]
14:04um like really strong
14:06>> cuz this one got like you know 17.9,000
14:09views and but then all the comments are
14:11like what the heck this is AI but then
14:14this video I think it only got it got
14:1610,000 views but there's comments that
14:20are asking about the app.
14:21>> Transparently this is like a terrible
14:23account. Content's like pretty scattered
14:25all over the place. This is not an
14:27account that's like doing a good job of
14:29finding content market fit. And even if
14:31they did want to keep running that AI
14:33format, which one they should, but if
14:36they were smart, they would just keep
14:37doubling down on seeing that type of
14:39content since it's ordered work. Some
14:41people mix views. They think that views
14:43just correlate with success. And that's
14:45not always the case at the end of the
14:47day, right? It really has to come down
14:49to like how is this video actually
14:51converting? Like it's great that you
14:53could say you run a massive UGC program
14:55and it does 10 million views a month
14:56organically, but if all those videos are
14:59slideshows and it converts at a 0.001%
15:02like then you're just burning money on
15:04fire and it's setting a bad example kind
15:06of for the [music] industry.
15:07>> So when you're doing these this like re
15:09content research, you wouldn't even look
15:12at this to try to iterate on this 10
15:1420%.
15:14>> Definitely not.
15:15>> Let's start from the beginning again and
15:17try to find like how would you research
15:18a good format?
15:19>> Okay, so this is a real creator. This
15:21actually brings up an interesting point,
15:22right? Yes, research a competitor, but
15:25this kind of goes back to what I was
15:26saying. When we had no competitors, I
15:28had to draw on more regular just
15:30everyday type of creators who were
15:32experiencing or facing some sort of
15:34problem that my product was going to
15:36solve. From there, I was able to come up
15:39with something that makes, you know,
15:41somewhat sense in terms of a potentially
15:44viral converting video, you know. So,
15:46for example, my face before peptides, if
15:48you click on that, extremely simple.
15:50It's not AI. It's not a slideshow. You
15:52can clearly see she passes the uncanny
15:54test. Super simple to get someone like
15:57this to do a before and after
15:59transformation and then layer in a CTA
16:02at the very end, right? And obviously
16:05you need some sort of creative
16:06imagination for that, but it's not the
16:08hardest reference or it's not the
16:09hardest jump to make, right? As you can
16:12see, the sentiment is pretty strong. I
16:13need I need I need. Um, so whether you
16:17are a peptide app or you actually had a
16:19peptide product yourself, something like
16:22this could stick and it's definitely
16:23something that I would try.
16:25>> It's kind of like a joke format cuz
16:26she's saying like my face before
16:28peptides and she makes you wait for like
16:30the whole 10 seconds and then the last
16:32two seconds she says my face still
16:34before peptides cuz I still don't know
16:36what the heck they are. [laughter]
16:38But then like people in the comments are
16:40still asking like what's where's the how
16:43how did you get them? And then but then
16:44some people get it. Seems like this is a
16:46great format for you could tweak it a
16:48little bit and then say you could just
16:50put a call to action at the end instead
16:52of saying, "Hey, I still don't know what
16:54it is." Like this could be a simple
16:56before aftermat and the view retention
16:58is probably very good. You're saying a a
17:00good way to research formats is not
17:03necessarily copying competitors because
17:06it's that means it's probably already a
17:08little bit more saturated, but just
17:10finding regular videos that talk about
17:13some kind of problem and then tweaking
17:15it to add a CTA.
17:16>> For us, like you know, we were
17:18researched a lot of formats in the job
17:20market, right? Job market, so cook this
17:22and that. and we ended up just like
17:24being able to take these actual just
17:27organic creators videos and then add in
17:30some sort of CTA. I think like yes, the
17:33easiest route to go is just copy a
17:35competitor remix 10 to 20%. But if you
17:38want to go into actual like format
17:40discovery and format creation, what you
17:43really do is is you're not copying other
17:45people. Yes, like you can still draw
17:47inspiration. This was a format that I
17:49created last year. And [music]
17:52funny story is I saw this from a girl
17:56who actually did get denied from an
17:58entry-level position at a zoo and she
18:01had a dual master's degree or something
18:04like that. And I was like, "Wow, this is
18:07absolutely crazy. This would definitely
18:08be a great way to plug Sideshift." So,
18:11as you can see, even still a year later,
18:13we we still use this format. Um, it
18:16doesn't convert super well, but it's a
18:17great warm-up format, which is a
18:19different type of format. It warms up
18:21accounts super well, and it starts to
18:22get the the niche quite engaged.
18:24>> Oh, you actually did say side shifts a
18:26minute into this yapping video, but this
18:28video got 700,000 likes, which is
18:31>> Yeah, that would that would printed,
18:33man. That one printed. It's not just
18:35warming up the account because I've
18:36heard like people talk about warming up
18:38UGC accounts, but you're saying like
18:40it's good to post just high view videos
18:43and then because that shows the account
18:46who you want to watch the future videos.
18:49>> Exactly. I mean, usually like when it
18:51comes to to warm-up videos, I'm trying
18:53not to confuse like the first the first
18:56time UGC operator here too much, but
18:58like yeah, there's a thing where you'll
19:00essentially want to run a warm up for a
19:02warm-up format, which is basically a
19:05video that doesn't focus on any sort of
19:06call to action. You're not worried about
19:08conversions. You're just trying to
19:09signal to the algorithm that you're a
19:11real that you're a real person and that
19:13all the content that you're about to
19:14post is well, is, you know, following
19:16all the guidelines and is real and is
19:18everything. So you really optimize for
19:20views on that right there. Oftent times
19:23the best format that uh warm up an
19:26account super well are those that are
19:27quite controversial just because that
19:29sparks virality. It's harder to like
19:32plug a proper CTA into those videos
19:34without it feeling without without it
19:37feeling like inauthentic which is you
19:38know obviously like one of the biggest
19:40hurdles that you must overcome. And and
19:41UGC is making the call to action feel
19:43extremely natural subtle enough to a
19:45viewer to say hm that's actually pretty
19:47interesting. let me go take an action
19:48[music] now and try and convert myself.
19:51>> It seems like really really simple
19:53actually to do these this format
19:55research. Like I was just looking at
19:56this video too and this is like in the
19:58job market. She's saying like job market
20:01is so bad. I'm applying to all these
20:03things and then she kind of like shows
20:05her iPad screen but there's nothing
20:07there. It's just like LinkedIn or
20:09something. But this could easily be
20:10tweaked. you know, you could just show
20:12your app on the iPad or something like
20:14>> be curious to see how conversions are at
20:16the end of the day, but yeah, you you
20:18you're on the right track.
20:19>> It seems like pretty simple to to do the
20:21the format research and then so and then
20:23step two is just two to $4,000 budget to
20:27in your first month just to get maybe
20:29like five to eight creators, small base,
20:32a little bit of CPM as well. And then
20:34you're trying to find content market
20:36fit. So then what do you do once you
20:37find you know a few formats that have
20:39you know maybe 10 you know to 50,000
20:42views
20:42>> usually like the best sign for us and
20:45just like even from our own personal
20:47experience is like when I have my
20:48campaign launched on side shift and I'm
20:51checking my analytics tab and I go to my
20:54post page and I see okay we finally have
20:56some content market fit here now it's
20:58time to double down. What I'll do is
21:01I'll usually just go back to to the
21:02marketplace and I will source more
21:05creators or I may go back to my campaign
21:08listing and just find existing creators
21:11that maybe were new applicants or that I
21:14had originally just passed over for
21:16whatever reason. But I'll usually talk
21:18to those people on a 5 to 10 minute
21:20call. Tell them how the campaign's
21:22going. Tell them why we're scaling up.
21:24Then I will assign them to the campaign,
21:27add them to the group chat, and then
21:29we're kind of off to the races. And this
21:30is really where you're just pouring
21:32gasoline on the fire. I still have about
21:3590% of the creator cohort posting that
21:39new format and just dragging that into
21:41Infinity. However, I will have maybe
21:4310%, which is usually like one to two
21:45creators still testing a couple new
21:47formats on the side for one of two
21:50reasons. One, I always want to be
21:51finding new formats, but two, if my
21:53other format gets too saturated, I want
21:55to have another one ready to go that I
21:57can then just kind of like slot into the
21:59chamber and have that cohort continue to
22:01rip it.
22:02>> What's that percentage of like new
22:04formats exploration versus just doubling
22:07down on existing one?
22:08>> Like I said, it's probably about 10%.
22:10I'm having 10% of the creator cohort
22:13finding new formats. Everyone does it a
22:15little bit differently, but that's what
22:16we found to work really well. I don't
22:18think like yes, put all your eggs in one
22:20basket, put maybe keep a slightly
22:22smaller basket to the side just in case.
22:25We really want to hedge your bets here a
22:26little bit. Obviously, I know some
22:28people that just run one format and they
22:29just run that thing into oblivion.
22:31That's not us. We like to hedge a little
22:32bit and just be a little cautious um
22:35that we're not saturating our audiences
22:37too heavily.
22:38>> It's actually a more than I thought,
22:39like 90%. And then you're saying some
22:41people even do just 100%. Like you you
22:45have six creators. Maybe it's like kind
22:47of demoralizing to, you know, three,
22:50four weeks, you know, you don't see
22:51anything and then as soon as you get
22:53that one video, then you just shift all
22:55of the creators to just doing that one
22:58format and then they should all like do
23:00much better,
23:01>> right? Then it's barbecue chicken at
23:02that point for the rest of the creators,
23:04you know, especially if they got the
23:05view bon like if they're on a view bonus
23:07structure as well. Like everyone now has
23:10seen another creator in the cohort do
23:12well. They know the format works. Now,
23:14they're going to spend a little bit
23:16extra effort here trying to copy that
23:18format and making sure that they can
23:20drag that thing out. And I think on the
23:21contr for the creators that are a little
23:23bit more still in like the discovery
23:24phase while the rest of the cohort is
23:26kind of like dragging these formats out,
23:28I think it it's important for them to
23:31know that like often times some of those
23:33first videos of a new breakout format
23:35are the ones that will go the most
23:36viral, right? Just because the algorithm
23:38hasn't seen them before.
23:40>> So, let me show you this. A lot of app
23:41founders I talk to have a feeling their
23:43app has viral potential, but don't want
23:45to be the person brain rat scrolling an
23:47hour a day hunting for formats or worse
23:49burning thousands on creators shooting
23:51videos that just flop. Recently, I've
23:53been telling every founder I meet about
23:55Spy Talk. It's basically an AI Tik Tok
23:58viral marketer that I've seen a lot of
23:59top app growth teams using. You just
24:01paste a link to your app and this agent
24:03scrolls hundreds of thousands of Tik
24:04Toks for you, finds the outlier videos
24:07from competitors who've already cracked
24:08the best formats that are driving
24:10installs in the niche of your app. And
24:11then it remixes the hooks, the angles,
24:13and then it makes playbooks so you can
24:15pretty much copy paste virality. And
24:16then it alerts you when it detects new
24:18breakout formats that would also work
24:20for your app. This is the only growth
24:21tool I 100% vouch for on this channel
24:24because there's a ton of Genai content
24:26tools out there, but none of them tell
24:27you what to make. Spy Talk makes sure
24:29you're never in the dark about what's
24:31actually working. Now, I'll put the link
24:33in the description. Do you see a big
24:34difference in this next phase where
24:37you're asking creators to come onto a
24:39campaign that's already doing well?
24:41Like, do you see a difference a big
24:42difference in their willingness to to
24:45jump on?
24:45>> Creators are more willing to jump onto a
24:47successful campaign because they see
24:49it's working. They see there's content
24:50market fit. They see that if they can
24:52slot themselves in, they should be able
24:53to be one of those top creators that
24:55starts to produce. Especially on
24:56Sideshift since we have all like the
24:58sharable links and stuff. Oftent times
25:00brands will send their dashboards into
25:02the chat so all the creators can see
25:04like okay here's a leaderboard. Here's
25:05who's doing really well. Here's the
25:06format that's working. So on and so
25:08forth. There's really like million
25:10different ways to run a UGC campaign. So
25:12some people might be sitting here and
25:13thinking everything I'm saying is wrong.
25:14Although I would beg to differ I'm not
25:16too wrong.
25:16>> Do paid ads come into this at all or is
25:19that the next the next phase?
25:21>> I think paid ads come into this pretty
25:22heavily actually. I think there's some
25:24people in the UGC space that are just
25:26too organic marketing pill and like that
25:30is definitely like where we started and
25:32I think organic marketing is huge and
25:34it's amazing but I think after working
25:37with some of these massive enterprises
25:39what's become really apparent is that
25:41they use this channel as one obviously a
25:44great way to go viral organically a
25:47great way to get copious amounts of
25:48volume out onto the internet a great way
25:51to drive millions and millions of
25:52signups downloads, whatever it may be.
25:55But what they're also doing is they're
25:57testing dozens of creatives every single
26:00day. These people have a massive
26:03performance budget. You have to remember
26:05that in a marketing budget, it's really
26:07like split into two. You have a creative
26:10organic budget which is about 20%. And
26:13then the absolute monolith of the budget
26:16is the performance budget and that
26:17accounts for 80%. So what these people
26:20are doing on their performance teams is
26:22they're constantly testing which
26:24creative is working for us which seems
26:27to be resonating really well with our
26:29audience. Once they have those data
26:31points, obviously it becomes a little
26:33bit more of kind of a technical process
26:36in running a a monster paid ads
26:38campaign. But if they go on side, if
26:40they see an engagement rate is above a
26:42certain percent, they know that that
26:43video works. They take that video and
26:45then they put paid ad spend behind that.
26:48And that is where I'm seeing some of the
26:50biggest differentiators between people
26:52running solely organic and people
26:54running organic and paid. Which is why
26:56we're building this paid ads integration
26:59for all of our brands to now run all of
27:03their organic winners as paid ads on
27:06Meta on Tik Tok directly through the
27:09platform. Right? So they don't need to
27:11necessarily [music]
27:12download the videos now. They can just
27:14run that all in one spot. It's a
27:16refreshing take cuz I think a lot of
27:17people are just like like you said like
27:19so organic pill and just have any
27:22experience in ads and I think that can
27:24be intimidating too cuz like if you're
27:26used to organic and you're used to not
27:29paying per view basic I mean you're
27:31paying CPM bonuses but paid ads is just
27:34it feels like a a whole different thing.
27:36Is it really that intimidating? Like
27:38what should a person do to get started
27:40with ads if they're already pretty good
27:42at organic? I would say it's
27:44intimidating because people only know
27:46the meta ads manager as this like big
27:48scary monster. And to be fair, it is
27:51quite intimidating when you first get in
27:53there. Like I mean that's why I actually
27:56think we're the right people to be
27:57building this because we were so organic
28:00pill ourselves and we understand how
28:02simple organic really is at the end of
28:04the day that we wanted to apply that
28:06same philosophy to an ads product. So
28:08what we really did is we took the meta
28:10ads manager, we integrated it with
28:12inside shift. We made it extremely
28:14simple for you to run these paid ad
28:16campaigns almost as you were just
28:18running a UGC campaign.
28:19>> It sounds like the platform is really
28:20useful like operationally regardless of
28:23the platform. Like how how should you
28:25run your organics? It's like if you're
28:27getting your next wave of creators on
28:30and you're starting to kind of pop off
28:32like 50,000 views, 100,000 views here
28:34and there, like what do what should you
28:36be doing with meta ads? I think what you
28:38should be doing with meta ads is you
28:41should be taking your top winners once
28:43they hit a certain engagement rate.
28:45Everyone has a different engagement rate
28:47that it works upon for them. Our
28:49engagement [music] rate is around 5%.
28:52That's what we see work really well.
28:54Once that happens, we're going to
28:55allocate some spend behind it and we're
28:58going to basically just test and start
29:00to see what the conversion looks like.
29:02Now, the great thing about paid ads at
29:04the end of the day is it solves the old
29:06the age-old question of organic
29:08marketing, which is where's the
29:10attribution? Luckily, with paid, you
29:12have attribution. It allows you to
29:14justify putting more spend behind
29:16certain things. You know, organic is is
29:19tricky because you have correlation
29:21spikes. You know, we have the ability to
29:23connect your revenue cat, your super
29:25wall, your strike, all these different
29:27things. And you can see correlation
29:29spikes when you know, you get a big view
29:30spike. Does your revenue go up? Does
29:32your installs go up? Whatever. Now, in
29:33paid, like with direct UTM links and
29:36tracking, [music]
29:37you can see just exactly how everything
29:39is converting, how many trial starts are
29:40you getting, how much is that
29:41converting, what does this actually look
29:43like at the end of the day. So, my
29:45recommendation is to always start with
29:48organic. Yes. Like if you're new to paid
29:50ads, start with organic. Really
29:52understand how that game works. [music]
29:54But as you can as you continue to scale
29:56up, you have content market fit, you
29:59have some budget now to deploy, start to
30:01put some of that budget into paid ads
30:03with those winners that are working.
30:05>> If you look at like 5% engagement rate,
30:08I think is the bar that you said you
30:10want to look at um to start spending.
30:12How much do you spend on on videos that
30:14have that 5%.
30:16>> It all depends on your rorowaz, right?
30:17If you're spending 200 bucks and you're
30:19getting 400 bucks out of it, then like
30:21great, keep spending and keep running
30:22that flywheel. Now, if you're spending
30:24and you're los like if you're putting
30:26dollar in and you're getting 75 cents
30:28back, then you're just going to
30:29accelerate the bleeding and you should
30:31probably not be running that video as a
30:32paid ad because then you clearly it
30:35didn't have uh organic content market
30:37fit. Some people start with like $300 a
30:40day. Some people are running up to
30:41$100,000 a day. It all just now it
30:43actually depends on how much capital and
30:45resources you have to deploy.
30:46>> And the same example of like the work of
30:49the end to end that we were describing
30:51before where you have like 2 to 4,000
30:53first month and then you bring on some
30:55more creators because it's working out
30:57and then now you have a bunch of
30:58creators copying the formats that you're
31:00already winning at and you have like
31:03maybe 10 examples of like formats that
31:05are hitting, you know, 100 plusk views
31:09and they have like 5% engagement rate.
31:11what's a good spend level like to just
31:14to try out because I think people are
31:15kind of intimidated by uh just spending
31:18like even beyond the man ads manager
31:20itself. It's just like what are you
31:21supposed to spend on these initial
31:23winners?
31:24>> I can make some assumptions off of that.
31:26Like let's say you started with that $2
31:27to $4,000 budget. You found content
31:30market fit. Now your budget has grown to
31:32over 10,000 a month for marketing
31:34including organic and paid. I would
31:36search a simple maybe a hundred bucks a
31:38day. see how that bodess for the first
31:4014 days contingent on obviously like
31:42what your funnel looks like what does
31:43your free trial look like all that stuff
31:46are you a 7-day free trial your 14-day
31:48free trial but I would start there if
31:50you're seeing a positive rorowaz which
31:52you should if you're doing it properly
31:54then you can start to allocate more
31:55spend into that
31:56>> is that $100 per day per ad or just
32:00total
32:00>> collective across how many videos you're
32:02running maybe you're only running three
32:04so right you're allocating 33 bucks
32:06across the board to each video that's
32:08like it's it's going to be pretty small.
32:10To give you an example, when we first
32:11started running paid ads, we were
32:13running at an extremely small scale. We
32:14were doing like a hundred bucks a day.
32:16We started seeing great results
32:17obviously as we had more creative and we
32:19started to put more money behind it. But
32:22$100 a day is like enough to get your
32:24feet wet and be like, "Okay, like this
32:26starts this is starting to make sense
32:28for me. I'm seeing a positive return
32:30here. What does it look like if I now
32:32start spending $300 a day? What does it
32:34look like if I spend $1,000 a day?" So
32:36on and so forth. And do you do meta ads
32:38or Tik Tok ads?
32:39>> We do meta ads primarily for B2B.
32:41>> Oh, interesting. So, if you're doing
32:43like organic on Tik Tok, you basically
32:45have to like download the videos from
32:47the creators and then like upload them
32:49to Meta and then run them.
32:51>> So, that's what you had to do. Now, you
32:53can do it all through Sideshift where
32:55you can just pretty much say, "Hey, I
32:57want to put $10,000 behind this." And we
32:59have that integration now where you can
33:00just pour this sp directly into the
33:02video. The same thing with Tik Tok Spark
33:06as well. Tik Tok Spark very similar to
33:08Meta. It's honestly a lot simpler to
33:10understand. Transparently, it's not as
33:12intimidating, but the the principles are
33:15are the same.
33:15>> So, you do both. You do like Tik Tok
33:17spark ads and then also meta ads.
33:20>> Tik Tok spark ads is more for like
33:21pushing organic, right? That's more for
33:24like if you have a video doing really
33:26well on organic that has a really high
33:29CTA like let's say [music] I mean to
33:31draw back to that example of Frank Short
33:33one of our creators. If that call to
33:36action was stronger and it was
33:38converting extremely well we would maybe
33:41pour spark ad dollars behind it to
33:43continue to push it into the organic
33:46sphere. You'll have a little bit of the
33:47you it's going to give you an
33:48attributable CPM. It's not going to give
33:50you obviously the conversion and
33:52attribution that you're going to get
33:53from [music] meta ads.
33:54>> Oh, right. Because you're just pushing
33:56it in the for you page and it shows up
33:58as an ad, but there's no anchor on the
34:00Spark ad, right?
34:01>> Correct. No anchor.
34:02>> Yeah, there's no button to actually CTA
34:04and like download the app, but meta ads
34:05obviously there's button. There's more
34:07attribution. I see. So, it's very
34:09different. So, I I would guess that CPMs
34:11are probably cheaper for Spark ads then.
34:14>> Yeah, CPMs are cheaper and that's really
34:15the only thing you can measure from it
34:17at the end of the day. Like you said,
34:18there's no anchor. I mean, if you want
34:20to run it now, Tik Tok ads, there's an
34:21anchor. That's different.
34:22>> But yeah, there's no CTA.
34:24>> The real scalability comes with meta,
34:26and that's where you got to I mean,
34:27like, man, if it if you do it manually,
34:29you have to like download the video from
34:31Tik Tok, upload it into meta, decide how
34:33much to spend. But if you're already
34:35running organic on Sideshift, you just
34:37put budget in, and it just allocates it
34:39to the winners.
34:40>> Yes. I've never seen that an organic
34:42platform do because I I feel like
34:44there's these organic marketplaces and
34:46you can like run your organic but then
34:49it's always like kind of a manual
34:50process like pull the videos out and
34:52then put it into meta.
34:53>> Most brands should have an amazing
34:56organic pipeline, right? That's where
34:57you're testing everything. That's where
34:58you're getting to reap those rewards.
35:00But as you start to scale up, you know,
35:03and you become a real enterprise, like
35:04there's a reason why, you know, some of
35:07these platforms are spending millions
35:08and millions of dollars on paid ads
35:10every year, right? It clearly works
35:12across the board. So, we wanted to just
35:14bridge that gap between organic and
35:17paid, right? We wanted to be able to go
35:20to a creator and say, "Hey, you were
35:23getting paid a retainer and a CPM. Now
35:26we're going to pay you a retainer and a
35:29percentage of those ad sales that you
35:31drive now that we can track that
35:33directly through sideship right and that
35:35also becomes really compelling to
35:36creators and it opens up the world of
35:39you know I think Tik Tok shop creators
35:41who are very familiar with this model
35:44but now bringing them over to canvas UGC
35:46which is where which is the landscape
35:48that we sit in. One of the big
35:49challenges with ads also is just
35:52figuring out your ad creatives. And so
35:54many paid ads are UGC based ad creatives
35:58anyway. So if you're going to do UGC,
36:00you still have to find the creators
36:02somehow. But you guys already have all
36:05the UGC creatives and you just start
36:07with organic and then you get to the
36:08ultimate goal which is paid,
36:09>> right? Well, that goes back to what I
36:11was saying earlier when you asked me
36:12like, "Do we have brand spending x
36:14amount like six figures plus six figures
36:17a month?" something like yes we do and
36:18like that six figures may seem like a
36:20lot but that's actually nothing in
36:22comparison to their overall advertising
36:24budget where they may be spending six
36:26figures with us for all this organic
36:28testing but they might be seven might be
36:30spending seven to eight figures with
36:31their performance budgets as well. So
36:33now it's about, you know, intertwining
36:35both.
36:35>> That really is the next level of scale
36:37that I think people that are really,
36:38really good at organic. I'm just so
36:41bullish on them being the best in the
36:44world at paid cuz there's people that go
36:47in the opposite direction and it's
36:49really hard to like unlearn paid and
36:52figure out how to do organic UGC. But if
36:55you know hooks and like you know
36:58algorithm and for you page and stuff, I
37:00feel like that's like the transition to
37:02paid is like not actually that hard. Our
37:04goal is to just make that process of
37:06learning paid and running paid ads like
37:08through side extremely simple so anyone
37:10can really understand it at the end of
37:12the day because yes, there's so many
37:14great UGC operators out there that I
37:17think are missing out a little bit when
37:19it comes to can they double down their
37:21strategy with paid. And I'm starting to
37:22see that shift a little bit on Twitter
37:24as well, which is great to see.
37:25Obviously, you still got some people who
37:27are extremely UGC pill. But the best
37:29people in the UGC space are ones that,
37:32you know, are aware of this. They're
37:34aware of how you test with organic and
37:37then run that as paid. I do feel like
37:39this is maybe the next shift because I
37:42feel like a couple years ago when you
37:44and I probably saw the same thing with
37:46Tik Tok shop where it was like oh Tik
37:48Tok shop creators and marketers are the
37:51real marketers like nobody in apps space
37:54is doing this real kind of marketing but
37:56then a couple years before that they
37:58learned from the affiliate marketers and
38:01the clippers and stuff like that and
38:03then now it's like the whole space is
38:06kind of evolving towards is okay, we're
38:08grinding this out and we're actually
38:10doing real good marketing with organic
38:12EGC, but it just doesn't make that much
38:14money compared to paid ads. And like if
38:16you just take that same skill set and
38:18apply it to a more scalable model, it's
38:21there's just so much more money to be
38:23made. One last question I had for you
38:25was we got to talk about AI a little
38:26bit. Like what how how do you think the
38:28the best leverage teams are using AI?
38:31not not in like ad creatives or uh
38:34videos, but just like in workflows like
38:36make stuff efficient.
38:37>> I've seen a lot recently on Twitter the
38:39rise of all these platforms claiming to
38:41do the GPT for marketing or GPT for UGC
38:46cloud for UGC. But I think it's about
38:49like taking it a step further and like
38:52our vision for helping people run
38:55campaigns was like what if your AI could
38:57cut your existing
39:00creators, right? What if your a like
39:03your AI agent could effectively deploy
39:05spend behind all these winners for you?
39:07How can we move into this extremely
39:09autonomous era that you know is taking
39:12over Silicon Valley and all these other
39:14industries and bring it into an industry
39:16that is relatively very creative, but
39:19there's actually a lot of nuances behind
39:21running a massive UGC paid ad system.
39:24And I think when you talk about
39:27automating these processes like what we
39:29just launched with our agent where
39:31you're able to go on Sideshift now, type
39:34in your budget, drop your website, set
39:37the the amount of creators you're
39:38looking for, and just hit go. It really
39:41makes this process as easy as possible.
39:43Right? the amount of friction that there
39:47was for first-time UGC operators was
39:50extremely high because you need some you
39:54need a knowledge base of figuring out
39:56like what creator should I work with uh
39:59which brief should I be testing which
40:00hook works very well what pay structure
40:02should I be working [music] so now our
40:04goal the same way that we're trying to
40:06make we're trying to take these UGC
40:08operators and make them really
40:09comfortable with paid ad spend we're
40:11trying to take people who have never ran
40:13UGC campaigns and show them the ropes
40:16with our new AI agent effectively,
40:18right? Where they can come in and they
40:20can just do all those steps that I said
40:22really just drop your link, drop your
40:24budget, and just hit go and our agent
40:27will teach you the ropes. Right. When
40:29you said briefs, that's kind of what is
40:32blowing my mind cuz I feel like the
40:34biggest challenge in like AI for
40:36marketing is like it's all slop in my
40:40opinion. Like most most Gen AI tools are
40:42just like if you try to apply AI to
40:44marketing, it's just slob. But then it's
40:46like doing the judgment side and like
40:49figuring out who like which creators to
40:51cut, which ones to hire, how to manage
40:53them. That actually seems more like an
40:56AI thing that like an AI would be
40:59potentially better than a human at um
41:01managing a bunch of creators. But then
41:03the brief part makes so much sense
41:05because you guys have data on all of the
41:08most and least successful UGC campaigns.
41:12So you guys can probably make the best
41:13AI briefs to like tell creators what to
41:16make.
41:17>> Exactly. And at the end of the day, like
41:18we're training our own model based off
41:20all of of, you know, all of this really
41:23important data. And I won't go too into
41:24the weeds for it, right? But it helps
41:27give everyone the best chance of
41:29building an actual viral campaign,
41:32right? instead of just guessing at the
41:34end of the day, you know, and it takes
41:36out all the ambiguity of what I talked
41:38about at the start where it's like,
41:40should I go and copy this format and
41:41remix it 20% or what if I just know that
41:45the way that, you know, I string these
41:48words together and I use this audio for
41:50this niche, it start it actually has a
41:52much higher success rate than even
41:54something I thought about copying,
41:56right? Can we take a lot of the decision
41:58paralysis out of the equation and just
42:00make this extremely extremely simple and
42:04non-complex for both brands and
42:06creators? I feel like one of the first
42:08things that people think about when
42:10they're trying to do get into UGC is
42:12like, should I hire a growth lead or
42:15like some kind of like head of Tik Tok?
42:17Do you think that's necessary anymore
42:18with like Sideshift agent?
42:20>> Not necessarily transparently. I think
42:23like you still do need labor to run your
42:26UGC campaigns. [music] I think our whole
42:28goal is to try and just make all of
42:30these archaic and complex processes
42:34extremely seamless. And like even if you
42:37don't have a growth leader, a campaign
42:39manager, like now you can just go on
42:41sides shift into the mark into the
42:43discover marketplace and just grab a
42:45campaign manager who can run your whole
42:47operation for you who understands how to
42:50use our new agent who understands uh how
42:53to use sides shift to its fullest and
42:54then obviously run this viral UGC
42:56campaign. So do I think that yes,
42:59there's still a need for for human for
43:01human labor in the equation? Yes, I I
43:04always think there will be, but the
43:06agent is supposed to make their job
43:08extremely simple, right? Where they can
43:09focus just more on the high leverage
43:11thing.
43:11>> Wow, this is super exciting. Yeah, Nick,
43:13thanks for thanks for being on the pod.
43:15>> Thanks for having me, Joseph. Always a
43:17pleasure. We'll have to we'll have to
43:18have you come by the office uh soon. I
43:20know you're due for a visit.
43:22>> Yeah, let's do it. Where where can
43:23people find you? You're on Twitter,
43:25right?
43:25>> I'm on Twitter. You can find me.
43:27Nicholas and Lton. That's probably the
43:29best place to connect. I'm always down
43:31to cop with anyone on uh anything UGC
43:36related, so hit me up.
43:38>> Awesome. Cool. Something you might not
43:40know, most of the founders I cover on
43:42this podcast are hanging out right now
43:44in the Consumer Club Discord, sharing
43:46with each other what's working now for
43:47consumer apps. So, you can apply to join
43:49Consumer Club if that sounds interesting
43:50to you. And this is the Superwwell
43:52podcast. Of course, you got to check out
43:54superwwell.com. We have more videos on
43:55the channel, so dig into those to learn
43:57from app founders who are willing to
43:59share super tactical stuff about app
44:01growth.

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