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#1 Blueprint for Mastering Every Conversation (This is How to Communicate with Confidence!) — Transcript

by Jay Shetty Podcast · 14,978 words · 2,186 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Arguments are not something to win. The
0:01[music] person in front of you isn't
0:03fighting you. They are fighting to feel
0:06understood by you.
0:08>> How do we communicate with someone who
0:11doesn't want to communicate with us?
0:13>> The people who will use silence as a
0:15punishment. That to me is the number one
0:17sign of low emotional intelligence.
0:23>> Hey everyone, welcome back to OnPurpose,
0:25the place you come to become happier,
0:27healthier, and more healed. Today's
0:29guest is someone that I've been looking
0:31forward to having in the seat. Ever
0:33since I came across his content on
0:35social media, I knew I had to have a
0:37conversation with him. Today's guest is
0:39Jefferson Fischer, a trial lawyer turned
0:42communication expert whose simple,
0:44practical tools have helped millions
0:46handle conflict with more calm and
0:49clarity. Jefferson is known for breaking
0:51down the exact words to use in real life
0:54moments when emotions run high. His
0:56book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less,
0:59Talk More, is already changing the way
1:02people navigate arguments, boundaries,
1:04and difficult conversations. I'm excited
1:06to welcome to OnPurpose, Jefferson
1:08Fischer. Jefferson, it's great to have
1:09you here.
1:10>> Jay, thanks for having me.
1:11>> Yeah, I mean it. I really, you know,
1:12when I first came across your content on
1:14Instagram, I think it was, I just
1:16thought it was so clear. It was so
1:18concise. And I feel communication is one
1:21of these underrated skills that we all
1:25use all the time. We all need it in
1:27every part of our lives, yet no one
1:30taught us how to do it at school or or
1:32anywhere.
1:33>> Yeah.
1:33>> And I wanted to ask you, what has
1:36communication unlocked for you in your
1:38life and for the people that you help in
1:41a way that nothing else could? H it's
1:44unlocked a life of peace for me. You
1:48know, a lot of people say you you sound
1:50very calm. Well, it's because I've been
1:51through a lot of hard and that means a
1:54lot of hard communication, a lot of hard
1:56conversations. The the the greater
1:58tolerance I have for difficult
2:01conversations, the greater relationships
2:04I'm going to have in my life. For me,
2:08communication has helped me be a better
2:10husband, a better father, a better
2:12friend in ways that only communication
2:16can do. And you're right, we we go
2:17through our whole season of growing up,
2:20going to high school, maybe going to
2:22college, and all of a sudden you get
2:23married and then you look at the person
2:24next to you, you go, "Oh, I have to I
2:26have to talk to you. I have to talk at
2:28work. I have to manage people. How do I
2:30how do I do that?" That's a skill of
2:31communication that is it is learned. It
2:34is not just gifted. Well, you just said
2:37that you are a good communicator because
2:39you've had a lot of tough conversations
2:41and hard conversations. I think most of
2:43us, we avoid tough and hard
2:46conversations. We don't even want to go
2:48there
2:49>> and we don't want to get into a tough
2:52discussion with our partner or we don't
2:53want to get into a difficult discussion
2:55with our boss or we're trying our best
2:57to just navigate away from and we think
3:00that's what good communication is. Why
3:04would you encourage people to meet
3:07difficult and tough conversations
3:08head-on?
3:09>> If you don't, the bill always comes due.
3:12The bill always comes due. You're going
3:13to have that difficult conversation at
3:15the very end when you're at your wits
3:17end or you may never have it at all
3:19because there's going to be something in
3:21your life that happened that they're not
3:22going to be here anymore. And what
3:24should have been said, that opportunity
3:26was was lost. We avoid the difficult
3:29because we avoid the the angst that we
3:32feel. But yet, when we choose to have
3:34the difficult conversation and we get on
3:36the other end of it and realize, "Oh,
3:38wait. I life didn't fall apart. Oh,
3:40wait. I'm still here. Oh, wait. They
3:41chose to accept me. Wait, they didn't
3:43run away." It's it's a feeling that that
3:46can't be replaced. When you realize you
3:48can be more vulnerable with this person,
3:50you can go deeper with this person.
3:51Think of the people in your life that
3:53you were the closest with. They're the
3:54people who've seen you're ugly. you
3:56know, the hard stuff, the messy stuff.
3:58And when you can have that kind of
4:00capacity for each other and
4:02communication and conversation, you're
4:04only going to to grow. Well, I think
4:07that's the thing, right? Like we the
4:08reason we're scared of having a tough
4:10conversation is because we're scared of
4:12the outcome. And so, we've already
4:14predicted that I don't want to have that
4:16conversation because they're going to
4:17break up with me.
4:18>> I don't want to have that conversation
4:20because then they're going to know I'm
4:21weak. I don't want to have that
4:22conversation because I might get fired
4:24or I might get looked over for that
4:26promotion. How do we approach tough
4:29conversations
4:31without an inherent belief of it being a
4:34negative result?
4:35>> It's the understanding that it's not my
4:38job to feel somebody else's feelings for
4:40them. That's what you do when you're
4:41afraid to disappoint someone. You're
4:43afraid [snorts] to say the hard thing,
4:45the the right thing. You'd rather be
4:46nice. You'd rather say the the thing
4:49that sounds good. Those kind of things
4:51always have a bitter taste because you
4:54realize, I'm not being real. I'm not
4:56being authentic. And before you know it,
4:58you've just been people pleasing. Before
4:59you know it, you feel less than
5:01yourself. Before you know it, you feel
5:02lost. And you really don't know who you
5:04are. And now you're in your mid-40s and
5:06you have a crisis. You go, "What is my
5:07purpose on life here?" Because I've been
5:09living it to serve everybody else's
5:11needs, not for what's true and authentic
5:14in my life.
5:15>> I'm trying to think of someone I was
5:16speaking to this week. I was I was
5:17speaking to someone. They said
5:20they're going through a tough romantic
5:22situation.
5:23>> Mhm.
5:23>> Been dating someone
5:26and they're scared that if they share
5:28how they feel, they may push the other
5:30person away. Talk to me about that.
5:33>> Number one, it's a valid fear. I'm not
5:35going to say that that fear isn't valid.
5:36I think anybody here that go, "Well,
5:38that's certainly understandable. What if
5:40they don't?" It's always the what if
5:42they do? Well, okay. Let's let's assume
5:45that they do. What happens next? If they
5:48do, you push them away, what happens?
5:50It's it's seeing that your life isn't
5:53going to fall apart. Now, if I come into
5:56the conversation and I am not trying to
5:58sugarcoat it, and if I'm not trying to
6:00make it to where I'm only saying things
6:03to plate you to to make you feel good
6:05and not being genuine, I've already set
6:08up the conversation and I've set up the
6:11relationship on
6:13fake. I'm just giving you a mask. I'm
6:16giving you a character of what I can
6:18tell is going to appease you. I'm going
6:22to be the the hero. I'm going to be the
6:24fixer. I'm going to be the happy one.
6:26I'm going to be the one who's always
6:28bubbly and can never be sad. And you you
6:30give them a character when you choose
6:32not to be authentic in the conversation.
6:34So the thought of, you know, if I do
6:37this, I'm going to push them away. And
6:39if you do, what happens? That's really
6:42what the fear is. Am I enough by myself?
6:45That's that's the underlying fear. And
6:47when you realize I can be enough without
6:49them, all those fears go away.
6:51>> Yeah. And that's what we're all working
6:54towards, I feel, is
6:55>> Yeah. Am I enough?
6:56>> Am I enough? And it's so interesting.
6:58That's exact. I was talking to that
7:00person and I said,
7:01>> you know, after you have that
7:02conversation or whether you choose not
7:03to, I think self- loveve needs to be
7:05worked on either way because that's
7:06right.
7:06>> That that's at the root of it. What what
7:08do you feel? You've been doing this for
7:10some time. You come from the legal
7:12world. M what's the number one
7:14communication mistake you see people
7:16making today [laughter]
7:18>> the one that I make too is that you
7:21think that what is said is exactly
7:23what's heard especially in in
7:26relationships how many times in a
7:28relationship
7:29>> have they kind of repeated back what you
7:31said well you said that's not what I
7:33said I didn't sound like that that's not
7:36how I said it and you start arguing they
7:38go yeah you did yeah you did and they go
7:39I wish I had this recorded you know I
7:42wish this I had this on camera that you
7:44could have seen back how you just spoke
7:46to me. And instead, we just we start
7:48fighting over how I said it.
7:52>> The better way to go is to say, "What
7:54did you hear? What did what did you
7:56hear?" Oh, okay. That's that's not at
7:58all what I meant. Can I can I have a let
8:00me let me redo that. That's not at all
8:02what I meant. Instead, we just we split
8:05the conversation into something that has
8:07nothing to do with what you the original
8:09source. So the number one communication
8:11that fault that I see is assuming that
8:14what is said is exactly what is heard.
8:17When you ask the question, what did you
8:19hear? Whether it's even in business or
8:21in relationships, you always get a
8:23different perspective that makes the
8:25connection that much stronger.
8:27>> That is such a great answer. It's such a
8:29great answer. I did that. Me and my wife
8:31did that exact [laughter] not we didn't
8:33do the exercise as consciously, but we
8:34went through that same exact thing
8:36recently. We were working out in the gym
8:38together. We're having a conversation.
8:40We heard each other totally differently,
8:42misjudged tones. I was like being loud
8:45because there was music on. She took
8:47that as like I was a bit like, you know,
8:49uh a bit triggered or whatever it was.
8:51And then we sat down and we talked about
8:52it. And that's exactly the conversation
8:54we had where I was like, I did not sound
8:56like that. [laughter]
8:57And she was like, "Yeah, you did." Like,
8:59you know, and you know, and then you and
9:00then you realize that you're so right.
9:03You end up splitting the conversation
9:04and you end up arguing about something
9:05that you weren't even arguing about.
9:07>> Yes. And that's the worst part because
9:09you end up creating something that is
9:11now an issue that wasn't even an issue
9:13in the first place.
9:14>> Absolutely. And it ends up that
9:17you will prove yourself wrong. I mean,
9:19when you say, "No, this is exactly how I
9:21said it." We don't even really know what
9:23our faith looks like, [laughter] you
9:24know, when we're talking. Unless you're
9:26in a mirror the whole time, you you
9:28don't know. And so we we are terrible
9:31judges of our subjective expressions.
9:35>> They say, "No, I that's not how I said
9:36it. No, I that's not what I that's not
9:38how I said. Yes, you did. Yeah. And so
9:41that that is to me it's if you want to
9:45know somebody that has strong emotional
9:47intelligence, it's how quick they get to
9:51asking for a reset.
9:52>> How quick they get to saying that's not
9:55my intention. My intention was this. Ah,
9:58okay. I can see that. The quicker that
10:01you get to that, that's somebody who
10:03says, "I'm okay being wrong."
10:07>> What does it take for someone who always
10:09thinks they're right to open up to the
10:11idea that they might be wrong?
10:12>> The person in front of you isn't
10:14fighting you. They're fighting to be
10:17understood by you. They're fighting to
10:20feel understood by you. When somebody's
10:23clammed up and you have to say, "You
10:25need to change your opinion. You need to
10:26change your opinion. You're right. I'm
10:28wrong." That's not going to happen. You
10:31can't just wish for that. Instead, if I
10:34were to say to you, listen, I'm not here
10:37to change your mind, Jay. This is what I
10:39believe. You hear how just me saying
10:41that all of a sudden opens up that
10:43curiosity of, well, maybe I do want to
10:44change my mind.
10:45>> I don't really know. But if I were to
10:47say, how can you possibly think that you
10:50you really think that that person is the
10:52person you should be voting for? You
10:53think that? And as soon as I get into
10:56criticism, the more I tell you that
10:59you're wrong, the more convinced you'll
11:01be that you're right. Because most
11:04likely, if I want you to change your
11:06mind and I say that you're wrong about
11:08something, Jay, I'm not just saying
11:10you're wrong. I'm saying that your
11:13wife's wrong, your dad's wrong, your
11:15parents are wrong, your grandmother is
11:17wrong. that thing that you went to when
11:19you were a kid that was a big
11:21crystallizing moment in your life that
11:23that set your belief system is all wrong
11:27and it's become part of your identity.
11:29And so instead of me fighting I think
11:31I'm fighting an opinion. I'm not. I'm
11:32fighting now your identity. And people
11:35will go to the ends of the earth. They
11:36will close off everything. They will box
11:38their ears to prevent having to change
11:42one second of their identity. Why?
11:45Because that change feels extremely
11:47scary. That's why evidence doesn't work.
11:49When you show people statistics on
11:51things, how can you possibly believe
11:53this? And they go, I just no, it doesn't
11:55matter. It they will justify it. They
11:57will flip it. They will find find ways
11:59to to take what supports them or reject
12:01anything that that doesn't. It's because
12:03it's now part of their identity. So, if
12:05you want to change somebody's mind,
12:07number one, you have to validate them.
12:08Two, you can't argue against the
12:10identity. You have to argue against the
12:13value. You have to find the value. Speak
12:15to the value. And three, understand that
12:19one conversation is generally not
12:21enough. If you want somebody to change
12:23their mind, it takes years. It takes
12:25months. And the bigger the belief, the
12:28more time it's going to take.
12:30>> Yeah, I I I couldn't agree more. I think
12:33I'm sure you hear this a lot as well. I
12:34hear a lot of people, especially people
12:36who would read our books, listen to our
12:39conversations, follow us on social
12:40media. A lot of people want to have
12:42conversations with their partners or
12:44their parents or a sibling,
12:46>> but they don't find that that person
12:48wants to communicate about that topic or
12:50theme or subject.
12:51>> Yeah.
12:52>> So, how do we communicate with someone
12:55who doesn't want to communicate with us?
12:59Because often that could be our partner,
13:02our parent, or someone that we love
13:03deeply.
13:04>> Yeah.
13:04>> And we want to talk to them about
13:05something meaningful, but they don't
13:08really even want to engage. Is it
13:09possible? It's possible.
13:12I get a lot of questions of people who
13:14are estranged from usually adult
13:17children. There's, you know, their
13:2030year-old son doesn't want to talk to
13:23his mom or a a daughter who doesn't want
13:26to talk to her dad and they haven't
13:27spoken in 3 years. And every time I have
13:32that kind of conversation, it it breaks
13:34my heart because you can tell and look
13:36at this parent, they want to have a
13:37conversation with their child. And you
13:39know deep down so does that that child
13:41they need that relationship. How do you
13:44how do you crack that code? What I have
13:46found most successful and what I teach
13:49them is I begin with saying I know I'm
13:54not and I'm open. And it sounds like
13:58this. I know there's distance between
14:00us. I know things aren't how we both
14:03want them to be. I know I've messed up.
14:06Whatever that is. I you you're saying
14:08what is a given two is I'm not I'm not
14:11asking to change your mind. I'm not
14:14asking for an apology. I'm not asking
14:17for whatever it is what they think
14:20that's what you're after. And three is
14:22I'm open. I'm open to a conversation.
14:24I'm open and I'm open I'm open to
14:26listening. I'm open in I'm open to
14:29understanding. Whenever you can just
14:32crack the door open of saying the
14:34conversation is here. And sometimes
14:36that's not enough. They're not going to
14:38do it. And in that case, what I like to
14:40say is then you have to live out the
14:41conversation and understand that if you
14:44can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse. You
14:46know, if if they don't want to come
14:47across to me and they've burned the
14:49bridge, well, then they're at least
14:51going to know where I am and they're
14:52going to know what I stand for and
14:53they're going to see the light that I
14:55I'm going to try to bring even if they
14:56don't want to talk.
14:58>> I know I'm not I'm open.
14:59>> Yeah.
15:00>> I really like that.
15:01>> I I really really like that. Especially
15:03the I'm not.
15:04>> Right. Exactly. I feel like that's such
15:05an important one because I feel like
15:07half the time it's like
15:10I I know we're not where we want to be,
15:12but I'd love it if you
15:14>> you got it. Yeah. Exactly. They're
15:16waiting for the, you know, I know
15:17there's distance, but you just, you
15:18know, and they're expecting who's going
15:20to apologize first.
15:22>> Yeah.
15:22>> I think that that for relationships and
15:25family, you know, the hard stuff, it
15:28becomes this petty fight over, well, I'm
15:32not doing anything till they apologize.
15:34And well, okay, you do it at your own
15:35peril. Then say goodbye to it. Say
15:37goodbye to it because they both dug in
15:40their heels and nobody's going to change
15:42unless somebody decides to do something
15:44different.
15:45>> And when you can just change the
15:48narrative by 1% and say, I'm going to go
15:50off on a ledge and do something
15:52different. I've seen more relationships
15:54come back together. I have seen more
15:56people come back and say, "Thank you so
15:58much. I we're actually going to meet up
16:00for coffee. She's coming to Christmas
16:02this year. Oh my gosh. Like that. What
16:04What is life not about if not that?
16:07>> I really hope everyone who's listening
16:08and watching, you know, tries that out.
16:11>> But you do that so well. You know, I've
16:13seen that with you'll say, "When's the
16:15last time you talked to somebody?
16:17>> Grab your phone. Call them. Call them
16:19now."
16:19>> Yeah.
16:20>> Call them now. Why? Why wait? Was would
16:22you have to wait to be ready? Call them
16:23now. And when you choose to do something
16:25different, you choose to be the first.
16:28They say, "Oh, you know, I'm tired of
16:29being the bigger person." Well, that's
16:31>> that's life. Then you then you do it
16:34with the understanding that things are
16:36not going to be different unless
16:38something is different.
16:39>> Yeah. Yeah. I always I always come back
16:41to what is the outcome that I want.
16:43>> Yeah.
16:44>> Like if the outcome I want is for this
16:46person and know how I feel then I might
16:49have to be the bigger person. I might
16:50have to be first.
16:52>> I might have to be apologetic. I might
16:55have to be more compassionate. Mhm.
16:57>> But if that serves my ultimate goal,
16:59which is this person knows how I feel,
17:01then I should be willing to become
17:03anything.
17:03>> That's right.
17:04>> But if my goal is to set a boundary and
17:08not let someone cross it,
17:09>> right,
17:10>> then I may actually even have to become
17:12more guarded. I may have to become more
17:13reserved. I may have to I have to become
17:15all these other things. And then you
17:16say, "Oh, but I don't want to be
17:17reserved." But it's like, but that
17:18serves your goal.
17:19>> Absolutely.
17:20>> And and so you've got to know what your
17:22objective is or what your what your goal
17:25is of any conversation. And I know you
17:26talk about how winning is never the goal
17:29of any argument,
17:30>> even though that's what we all think.
17:32>> Yeah. Especially being a an attorney,
17:35people are like, "I know what you're
17:36supposed to do." And it's that's just
17:37not the that's not the truth. It's not
17:39like it is on TV. You you will lose
17:42cases. In fact, if you haven't tried if
17:45you haven't lost a case, you haven't
17:46tried enough cases is what they say in
17:48the in the attorney world because I
17:51can't I can't choose the law that
17:53applies. I can't choose my client's
17:55facts. So you have to play the cards
17:56that that you're dealt. But how I
17:57advocate it is different. What I teach
18:00is arguments are not something to win.
18:02They're something to unravel. You find
18:05knots in conversations. In law, there's
18:09this thing called the jury instructions.
18:11Meaning at the very end of the trial,
18:13let's say you've you've had two weeks
18:15worth of evidence. You had openings, all
18:17all your your motions, and you're
18:19finally at the end and the juryy's about
18:21to go back and make a decision on
18:23something. And they have a document
18:25called the jury instructions and it's
18:27written out who's responsible, this
18:29person, this person. They do this, yes
18:30or no? They add percentages, they might
18:32add money, whatever it is, it is this
18:34document that controls the ultimate
18:37outcome of the entire case. And good
18:40attorneys start with the jury
18:41instructions when they first get a new
18:43file. Bad attorneys wait till the very
18:46end. Same way in relationships, like you
18:48mentioned, if I know where the goal is,
18:51everything else becomes fluff.
18:52everything else becomes irrelevant. So
18:54what if they said that thing two years
18:57ago that you could bring up? So what if
18:59they, you know, said it a way that they
19:02rolled their eyes? Can can you have a
19:04little bit more emotional resilience to
19:07understand what's happening in that
19:08moment to not be clouded by the forest,
19:13you know, the trees through the forest
19:14to be able to see what's happening in
19:16real life. So start with your end. have
19:18a goal for the conversation
19:20and and make sure if I if I could say
19:23with you, let's say you and I are off
19:25and I say, Jay, I I know we're about to
19:28have a difficult conversation and I want
19:30you to know I'm going to be in it here
19:32with you. I mean, how encouraged do you
19:33feel of knowing I'm not trying to
19:35abandon you in it. I'm not trying to
19:37push something at you. And when you are
19:39able to slow it down and see arguments
19:42as not something to win but something to
19:45unravel, you find so much more in the
19:47connection. Momentum isn't created by
19:49doing more. It's created by doing the
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21:23If [snorts] you've been with someone for
21:24long enough, they're going to end up
21:26saying something that will trigger you
21:28>> or that will undoubtedly.
21:30>> Yeah. Unoubt if you've been to someone
21:32long enough.
21:32>> Yeah.
21:33>> When your partner says something that
21:34triggers you
21:35>> Mhm.
21:36>> what do you do?
21:37>> You tell them in a way that communicates
21:40it that it sinks in. If something is
21:42said to me by Sierra and it it triggers
21:45me. One is there is a mindset to me in
21:50in any relationship that you have to
21:52have that says this is a place where I
21:54can be messy. This is a place where I
21:57don't have to be my best of all the
22:00place to be. This should be the safest
22:02for me. Now, if it's intentional, this
22:05person meant to trigger you, then what I
22:08like to do is ask the question, did you
22:11mean did you mean for that to upset me?
22:14Did you mean for that to hurt me? You
22:17you find out real quick if they really
22:19did because sometimes people say things
22:21they they don't mean. Not sometimes,
22:22they always do, you know. And if you
22:25find that you you can't even slow down
22:29enough to have the discussion of this is
22:30what hurt me, you know that this
22:32triggers me. I think there's also a
22:33difference of if they know that it does
22:35and they're using it as a weapon, well,
22:37that breaches trust versus they didn't
22:39know it and now you need to explain why.
22:42This this reminds you of that time when
22:44you were a kid that is setting you off
22:47and you're not really sure how to how to
22:49deal with it. So when it comes to being
22:51triggered, you first have to slow
22:53everything down. Means I'm going to talk
22:55slower. I'm going to lower my volume
23:00rather than getting amped up and I'm
23:02going to let them know that something
23:04else is coming up for me more than what
23:06you said. And if you're in a committed
23:08relationship that they want to
23:09understand you, that's a conversation
23:10you're going to have. And I think the
23:12natural reaction when someone says
23:14something that triggers us is either to
23:16say something that triggers them back.
23:17>> Yeah.
23:18>> Even if it was unconscious in the first
23:20place or we kind of rush to defend
23:22ourselves which seem like very natural
23:25human instincts.
23:26>> How do we build that slowness, that
23:29patience, that stillness that's required
23:32to actually create connection as opposed
23:34to do the human thing which is defend
23:36ourselves and prove our worth and show
23:38we're right? How do how do we even get
23:39into that pocket?
23:41Your first word has to be your breath.
23:43In those moments when somebody says
23:45something we don't like, we [snorts]
23:48and we get up like that. We we suck it
23:50in, but we don't let it out. Instead,
23:52our our breath comes out when we're
23:54yelling. We're raising our voice. When
23:57when you start to yell and somebody
23:59says, "You're yelling." And you go, "I'm
24:00not yelling." Because you know deep down
24:02that's exactly what you're doing. If you
24:05find that you don't know how to slow it
24:08down, it's your breath. Your breath
24:09always comes first so that you can
24:11actually
24:13breathe.
24:15And there's a difference between if you
24:17say something that's hurtful and I
24:20immediately go me. Okay, Jake. What
24:22about you? You don't remember that time
24:24that you you really want to you're going
24:25to that's that's rich. That's funny. You
24:27you want to say this to me and I start
24:29right out you versus if I give it five
24:33to seven seconds of nothing. Meaning,
24:36I'm gonna breathe and I'm just gonna let
24:38your words fall to the ground. As if I
24:42go, "You sure you're good with that?
24:44That that what you said? Is that what
24:46you really want to say?" Because people
24:48don't like to hear their their words
24:49echo in that silence. I've seen it
24:52countless times where the person who
24:55said that hurtful thing, and you know
24:56what? I've been that person, too, where
24:59you say or they say, "I I I shouldn't
25:02have said that." before you have to say
25:04anything. What I what I meant to say was
25:06or or that that was too far.
25:10That's allowing
25:12you to look more controlled and more
25:14confident in that conversation. And all
25:17of a sudden, when it's like this instead
25:20of it slowly begins like this, just by
25:21the silence of understanding,
25:25hearing their words echo back withdraws
25:28that that sting. It it never stings as
25:30bad. Yeah. I like the let your breath
25:33become your first word. That's great.
25:35>> Yeah.
25:35>> And it's such a
25:37>> It feels like again it keeps going back
25:40to that idea of if you think every
25:42conversation and you write about this
25:44right at the beginning of the book. If
25:45you think every conversation is about
25:46winning and about being right, the goal
25:50is so skewed.
25:51>> Yeah.
25:52>> That you can't possibly take a breath
25:54because to you, you're just losing.
25:56>> Like a breath is just losing time. It's
25:58losing energy. It's losing momentum.
26:01It's it's just losing. And so again, it
26:03goes back down to how do we need to
26:05really reframe our mindset to say not
26:08every conversation is about winning and
26:10being right. Conversations are about
26:11understanding and seeing someone and
26:15connecting and finding a common ground.
26:16And it's just not how we're wired.
26:19>> No, it's it's not how we're wired. It
26:21takes discipline. It takes real
26:23discipline. When I hear people take a
26:27breath before they respond,
26:29>> I know it's about to come out is
26:32has a much more heavy
26:34>> footing to it. If you were to just ask
26:36me, you know, how was your day or how
26:38are you doing? I'm like, good. I'm good.
26:40I'm great. Everything's good. And I have
26:42that quick response. And if you instead
26:44were to ask me, how's your day? And I
26:46went,
26:49I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. Now, what's
26:53the difference? same thing. I just I use
26:56my breath. I slowed it down.
26:58>> I calm my nervous system. And as a
27:02secondary benefit, I also calm down
27:03yours.
27:04>> Yeah.
27:04>> And so most of the time when you feel
27:07that rise coming, you have to slow down
27:10the conversation. So the the to me, the
27:12hotter the fire burns, the more you have
27:14to to spread out the cold because it's
27:17>> slowing it down. Even asking, "Can we
27:20can we slow this down for a second? Can
27:23I take a a moment just to I I'm I'm here
27:25with you. I just need a second to to
27:27think. What follows after is never how
27:31it sounded before.
27:32>> If your partner is giving you the silent
27:34treatment, how do you engage?
27:37>> Depends if the silent treatment is there
27:39for a reason.
27:41>> Some people you you kind of have to do
27:43the the gray rock on that they're you
27:45can't be you can't reason with them. So,
27:47I'm not saying that silent treatment is
27:49is not there for a good reason
27:51sometimes, but let's say it's there to
27:53hurt you. You people who will use
27:55silence as a punishment. They're upset
27:58you did something and they just go,
28:00"Okay, I'm just not going to talk to you
28:01anymore."
28:03That to me is the number one sign of low
28:07emotional intelligence is if you can't
28:10even have the ability to say
28:14I need to take a break for a second
28:17because that really upset me.
28:20I'll text you this afternoon. I'll text
28:24you tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow
28:26versus just ghosting just because what
28:30it does is it puts the other person in
28:32position of trying to beg, trying to
28:33plead and then what happens to that
28:35other person? They desperately want you
28:37to communicate. So what do they do? Most
28:38of the time they say something super
28:40flagrant like a bad foul. They they say
28:42something that is really harsh just in
28:45hopes that you come back in that that's
28:48it. They just want that text back. Okay,
28:50he's still there. He still reads my
28:51text. He's still whatever it is. And so
28:54if you really are somebody who's you're
28:56trying to get through the silent
28:57treatment, respond to, "I see that
29:00you're giving me the silent treatment. I
29:02see that you've gone quiet on me. I'm
29:04going to give you space. I'm ready to
29:06have the conversation when you are."
29:08Now, there's a difference of somebody
29:10taking an hour to get back with you.
29:13Taken 5 days to get back with you. Well,
29:15that's something different. That's
29:16that's somebody who has chosen not to be
29:19connected. Because if I really want a
29:21conversation with you, a real
29:22relationship with you, I'm not going to
29:24put you in the position of begging.
29:26>> That's such a great note that if someone
29:29wants to be in a relationship with you,
29:31they'll never put you in a position of
29:32begging.
29:33>> Never. They'll always stay interested,
29:35you know, it's it's like we've for
29:38people who are married, let's say, or in
29:39a a big relationship, it starts with me
29:42being very interested in you. I'm going
29:44to want to know your favorite color. I'm
29:46going to want to know what you like to
29:47eat, what you like to wear. I want to
29:49know about your your family. I want to
29:50know all these things about you. I'm so
29:52interested. Why? Cuz I want to
29:54understand you. And then we get happy
29:56and then we just it becomes a measure of
29:59how good can I feel with you and the
30:01good and then you get married and it's
30:05better. It's for better or worse, right?
30:07And then you just realize I don't really
30:09like this worst part. I I really just
30:11like the better part. And all of a
30:13sudden you realize that things get hard
30:16and you're in year seven of your
30:18marriage and year 14 of your marriage
30:20and you feel further drifted apart cuz
30:22really you became less interested
30:25>> in them. You didn't get interested in
30:27the hard. You were just interested in
30:29what was the basics. You were good with
30:31the basic facts. You weren't good for
30:33the the deep stuff. you were. It gets to
30:38be where if you really want to know and
30:41test the strength of a relationship,
30:44it's not the measure of how good do I
30:47feel in the good times. It's how long
30:51can I sit with them in the hard times. M
30:54>> and when I can sit with you in what is
30:58the deep struggle when we're both crying
31:00when we're both 3 hours into the
31:02argument and going I don't understand
31:04why I can't communicate with you. I I
31:06don't how did I ever like you in the
31:08first place that's real that's raw. And
31:11if I can still sit with you in it that
31:14that's a type of connection that that
31:16will last forever. It's, you know, I I
31:19talk to so many couples and even older
31:22couples of, you know, how do you how do
31:24you do it with communicating? How do you
31:27how do you do communication? So, well,
31:29it's never
31:32we have really big conversations,
31:34[laughter] you know, it's never that
31:36it's we know that things are going to be
31:39hard and we choose to stick through the
31:42hard. People give up too easily. I mean,
31:45you you're married. I'm married. It's
31:47they're a fight. They they are an
31:50absolute fight not between each other
31:52but for the relationship. It's the
31:54relationship versus everything else.
31:56Attention, time, obligations, finances,
32:00kids. It's the relationship versus
32:03everybody else.
32:04>> Is there anything someone can ever say
32:06that shows you they're not your person?
32:11>> I don't care
32:14about you. if they really don't have an
32:17interest in caring about you. If if you
32:20hear that I'm upset, are you hear that
32:22your wife's upset? You should care. I'm
32:25not talking about the surface level
32:26like, "Okay, I don't care about that
32:27right now." I'm talking about the deep,
32:28it does not affect me. When you're on
32:31the ground and upset and face on the
32:34floor and you're crying and it doesn't
32:36affect you because you don't care, that
32:40to me is they're not your
32:43person.
32:46If you want to know if somebody is your
32:47person, have they asked how you're
32:49doing? I've seen so many people go on
32:52dates or have relationships and they
32:56say, "Yeah, they they were nice, but I
32:57don't think they ever really asked about
32:59me. They just talked about themselves."
33:02Is they just needed to, you know, rent
33:04an ear for a little bit because they
33:08just made it all about themselves. Those
33:10are people that, you know, are not going
33:12to be your people. If you want to know
33:13if they are your person, you don't have
33:16to ask them, "Why don't you ask about
33:20me?" They will naturally want to know
33:23more about you. You don't have to ask. I
33:27had this one time where she a woman
33:30asked me, you know, I went on a date and
33:31he really didn't ask about me, you know,
33:34that much. I'm not really sure what to
33:35do. I said, don't go on another date.
33:38[laughter]
33:38Like if if they're not going to just ask
33:41about you and the basics,
33:44>> how could they ever want to know about
33:46you when things are hard when they will
33:49be hard? There's no getting a getting
33:51around it. It they will be hard. That's
33:54that's how you know if they they are
33:56your person. They're willing to have the
33:58deep hard conversation.
34:00>> How do you know if your relationship
34:02just has so many arguments that it's
34:05beyond saving? How do you know that it's
34:07gone too far?
34:09>> When you look back and the other person
34:11is 10 miles behind you.
34:14>> Explain that.
34:15>> When you're doing it alone, that you've
34:17read all the books, you've read all the
34:18materials, you're listening to all the
34:20podcasts, you might be listening to this
34:22episode and going, "I desperately want
34:24to heal my marriage, my relationship. I
34:28don't know what to do." because most
34:30likely they're the only ones with an ore
34:32in their hand trying to paddle and the
34:34other person is just in the back with
34:36their arms folded. I don't really I
34:39don't want to be here. Does it not
34:40bother you that we are in conflict right
34:43now? I I mean I I don't really care.
34:44It's really your fault. And they feel
34:46like they're the only ones that are
34:48there. These people that it doesn't
34:50matter what technique you do. It doesn't
34:53matter how much you push. They are
34:55someone that will never try and reach
34:58for you.
34:59>> So, how do you know when it's enough
35:02that you've put out your hand and
35:04they're unwilling to take it?
35:06>> And you just look back in the rearview
35:08mirror and they're okay with leaving it.
35:12>> Yeah. And [clears throat] I think the
35:13hard part is sometimes people show these
35:17glimpses of or rays of hope and then you
35:21believe that and then they go back to
35:22being the way they were.
35:24>> Yeah.
35:24>> And they kind of oscillate between
35:27showing you they care momentarily but
35:29then going back to not caring. And it's
35:31so hard to know which one to invest in
35:34and which one to believe.
35:36>> Mhm. I think that the more honest of a
35:39conversation you can have with that
35:41person
35:41>> Yeah. the more honest reflection of what
35:43kind of relationship you have. Like we
35:45talked about at the beginning, Jay, if
35:48if I can't have the hard conversation
35:50with you, then how deep is our
35:52relationship?
35:54>> You know, if look look at the
35:56relationship itself is if it's only
35:58surface level conversations. I'll show
36:00you a surface level relationship. But if
36:02you're willing to have the hard talks,
36:04no, I can show you much deeper
36:06relationship. What's your capacity for
36:08the difficult? And yeah, people will
36:10show you the glimpses in conversation
36:12of, "Oh, there's that person. There's
36:13that person that I I like, and then it's
36:15gone." Well, that's because it's it's
36:18only a side effect. It's it's not the
36:21main symptom.
36:22>> Yeah.
36:23>> They are they're only putting on the
36:25show to keep you entertained. They are
36:29It's like a slot machine, you know? They
36:31just want to keep you addicted just for
36:32a little bit longer. And you have to
36:35look back and go, what am I what am I
36:38getting from this in real time? What am
36:40I truly getting from this? Am I am I
36:42enough just by myself?
36:45>> I think that's the deeper issue of
36:46feeling if I don't have this person, who
36:48am I?
36:49>> Yeah. And that's why we don't say how we
36:51feel. It's why we mold who we are. It's
36:53why we tolerate bad behavior and bad
36:55words and bad communication because we
36:58don't feel like we're fulfilled without
37:00them. So, we'd rather have a painful
37:03existence with them than a potentially
37:06painful or long-term nonp.
37:10>> And I appreciate what you're saying
37:12because it shows that there are real
37:15ramifications and consequences to poor
37:18communication.
37:20>> Yeah.
37:20>> Because I think a lot of us will just
37:22tolerate and elongate
37:25those periods hoping things will just
37:27get better or go away. But the reality
37:30is that people don't change their
37:31communication patterns that quickly.
37:33>> Yeah.
37:34>> And that's a harsh reality. It's a harsh
37:36truth.
37:37>> Things don't change if things don't
37:40change. You know, I I know that when you
37:43have those moments where you go, I I
37:45wish things were were different in our
37:49communication. Yeah. It takes that takes
37:51time. That takes real raw vulnerability.
37:55It is my belief that that love is
37:58self-disclosure.
38:00If I really want you to know me, I'm
38:02going to disclose everything. And if I
38:04want to know you, I need you to disclose
38:07everything. I need radical honesty in
38:09this relationship to know that I'm never
38:12going to be too much. They need to know.
38:14My wife needs to know. She's never going
38:16to be too much. And when you can create
38:18the element of safety in conversation,
38:22you you create a relationship that can
38:25be impenetrable
38:26>> to anything from the outside. When
38:29things get stressful and stuff and that
38:31tension, you you kind of bond together,
38:33right? But if there's a source in
38:35between you and you can't address it, if
38:38you can't take care of that, it's it's
38:39never the outside in. It's always the
38:41inside out that that ruins you.
38:44>> Yeah. Yeah. You you made me think of a
38:46moment where sometimes if we're if we're
38:48doing an interview or maybe even if
38:49we're talking or talking to a friend and
38:52>> my and someone will ask us about a
38:54relationship and my wife will sometimes
38:55be like, "Oh, I can be a lot." Like she
38:57as in she's talking about herself.
38:58She'll be like, "Oh, I can be a lot. I
39:00can be too much sometimes." And my
39:01honest reaction is, "You are not a lot
39:03at all."
39:04>> Uh and and she'll be like, "No, no, I
39:06can be." And now now we're getting into
39:07an argument. [laughter] I'm like, "Well,
39:09no, you're not." Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
39:10She's like, "Yes, I am." And I'm like,
39:11"No, you're not." And and it reminds me
39:13because it's it's that same thing like I
39:16appreciate her because I don't think
39:17she's a lot.
39:18>> Like there's there's not a moment where
39:20I'm like, "Oh, you you're being too
39:22much."
39:22>> Right.
39:23>> Because you're right. I want her to be
39:25herself with me.
39:27>> Yes.
39:27>> What with what she's going through and
39:30trust that she can share that and
39:32express that.
39:33>> That's how you know that they're your
39:34person.
39:35>> Yeah. Yeah.
39:35>> When they're not too much.
39:37>> Yeah.
39:37>> For you. You know, you have capacity for
39:40all the range of everything that they
39:43are will be and what they have to offer.
39:46You know, their strengths as well as
39:48their weaknesses, especially the
39:50weaknesses because you and I, we have
39:52many.
39:52>> Yeah. Of course.
39:54>> Yeah. So, so you're saying that if if
39:56you don't have the capacity to handle
39:58all of someone, then they may not be
40:00right for you and you may not be right
40:02for them.
40:02>> That's exactly right.
40:03>> Yeah. If there is a mismatch in capacity
40:06to
40:08deal with the messy, right? They say you
40:10can't if you can't be with me in my hard
40:12times, then you don't deserve me at the
40:15>> the best, right? That's absolutely true,
40:18especially in conversations. If I can't
40:21have the the grace, the capacity by you
40:25for me to say the wrong thing and you
40:27realize that I did say the wrong thing
40:29and there's a place for me to apologize.
40:31I mean, repair has to happen. Yeah,
40:33>> repair to it's on me to do that. Now, if
40:37I know that I don't have the capacity in
40:39that moment to absorb everything that is
40:42happening, that's that's not going to to
40:44work. It's not it's not for lack of
40:47love.
40:47>> It's a lack of capacity.
40:49>> What should a healthy repair
40:50conversation look like? So, if you're
40:53going to repair with someone cuz you
40:54said something you don't mean or
40:56someone's going to repair with you
40:58saying something because they said
40:59something they don't mean.
41:00>> Mhm. M what should that conversation
41:02sound like from their end or yours based
41:04on who did the mistake?
41:06>> 99% of the time our arguments are not
41:09what we're arguing about. They are about
41:12the hidden need. The need to feel
41:14understood, the need to feel heard, the
41:17need to feel safe by that other person.
41:21And things go so south when I pick up
41:26the frustration or I pick up the
41:28reaction and not listening to the need.
41:30Every one of us, ourselves included, we
41:33go into conversations with these hidden
41:35fears of am I enough?
41:38>> Am I enough if I get it wrong? Am I
41:40enough if I look scared or I don't know
41:43what to do or I don't know what to say
41:44or will I be abandoned? Are they not
41:47going to want me or do they not really
41:48care? We we come in every single time to
41:50one of these conversations and [snorts]
41:52if I'm just responding to the reaction
41:55rather than addressing the need, there's
41:57always going to be a mismatch. There's
41:59always going to be conflict that is now
42:02corrosive to the very fabric of the
42:04conversation. Like say for example in in
42:07a relationship somebody goes, "Do you
42:10even do you even care? Like I don't even
42:11know. Do you even care?" And what is the
42:14guy they go? Oh, this again. Really? Do
42:16I care? Like okay this. Okay. This is so
42:18stupid. And what you're doing, you're
42:20you're tearing the very fabric of the
42:22relationship, when you are dismissive
42:25over how there's a real feeling. So when
42:28somebody is sharing that kind of
42:30question with you and you treat them as
42:32if that question is real, because it is,
42:35you change everything, how do you model
42:38repair that you model it by saying, "I
42:40can totally see how you'd think that. I
42:43can see how you'd be frustrated." You
42:44know, if if that's the way you heard it,
42:46I I don't blame you for being upset
42:49about it. Of course, you'd be upset
42:51about that. It sounds like that sounds
42:53really frustrating.
42:55>> That sounds scary. I get the feeling you
42:57you feel really hopeless right now. And
42:59it's like, yes, that is exactly how I'm
43:02feeling. You just you you want somebody
43:04to understand how you're doing. I don't
43:07need to agree with you to understand
43:10you. I don't need to fix the problem to
43:13meet the need. I just need to slow down
43:15long enough to put aside the frustration
43:18and the reaction and see the wound.
43:20>> It's so clear that if we simply went
43:23into every conversation or the next
43:26conversation
43:27just trying to understand how much would
43:29be solved.
43:30>> Yeah.
43:31>> Because like you said, everyone's just
43:33trying to get you to understand them
43:35whether they're shouting. There's that
43:37beautiful statement that I love from
43:39Russell Barkley where he said that the
43:42people that need the most love will ask
43:44for it in the most unloving ways.
43:47>> That's right. It's it's slowing down the
43:50moment to say, "What do they need right
43:53now that they don't have the words to
43:55ask for? What are they asking for that
43:57they don't have the words to say?"
43:59>> And when I can stop and say, "What is
44:01happening here?" Like you think like I
44:03have we have two kids, all right? Seven
44:05and five. And when my son who's seven
44:07was, let's say three, right? And and if
44:10he was crying, yelling, throwing
44:14something, yelling no, uh throwing a
44:17fit, you think I was going, I cannot
44:19believe that you're raising your voice
44:20right now. I Are you kidding? You're
44:22crying at me? Can you like you do you
44:24not see all the things I'm doing? No. I
44:26I go, "Oh, he's hungry. He's upset. He's
44:29scared. You know, he's he's sleepy. It's
44:32it's his bedtime." It's the same thing.
44:34It's the same basic human needs in every
44:36single one of us. It is I will shout it
44:38to the rooftop. They are not fighting
44:41you. They are fighting to feel
44:43understood by you. And when you can
44:46address that understanding by using
44:49words of repair, everything changes.
44:53Repair. Validation. Validation is not
44:57weakness. It is repair. And that that's
45:00the measure of a true relationship. How
45:03quick can I get to repair? Relationships
45:06don't fall apart because of one big
45:08failure. They fall apart because of the
45:11hundred micro moments where repair could
45:14have happened, but it didn't.
45:16>> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. These
45:18little cracks.
45:19>> Yeah.
45:20>> Fissures. It's the paper cuts that you
45:23go 5 years, 10 years, 30 years, and you
45:26look back and go,
45:27>> but there's just been so much. How can I
45:29possibly address it? There wasn't some
45:31big moment. It's all these little
45:33moments for repair that you just chose
45:35to
45:36>> to go by. That's why every single one is
45:38is truly important. So when you get
45:40dismissive and go really this Oh, here
45:43we go again. Here she goes. You're just
45:46you're choosing to not repair and if you
45:50understand and sign consign your name to
45:53a piece of paper that says I'm choosing
45:55my frustration over her piece. Sign your
45:59name to it. If you can sign that with a
46:01straight face and give it to her,
46:03>> then congratulations. You've you've lost
46:05the relationship. That's what that's
46:07what you're doing. You're signing your
46:08name away to the end of it.
46:10>> I wanted to talk a bit about parenting
46:12because you mentioned it earlier with
46:13estranged family members and things like
46:16that. One of the biggest interactions
46:18people experience with their parents
46:21>> is feeling judged. So, a lot of the
46:23communication that parents have if
46:26people don't have great relationships or
46:27even if they do is judgment. like it may
46:29even be in their tone. Oh, did you see
46:31what so and so's doing? Like they just,
46:33you know, got married or they got a new
46:34promotion or or it may just be like, oh,
46:37are you are you still with that same
46:39guy? Like, are you you know, and it's
46:41>> and I think this feeling of judgment is
46:44the opposite of understanding. When you
46:46judge someone, it's saying, "I already
46:47know you.
46:48>> I I'm already seeing you a certain way,
46:50and I'm not going to let you show me who
46:53you are,
46:53>> right?
46:54>> I'm projecting my viewpoint onto you."
46:57So, it's so hard,
46:58>> right?
46:59>> And people struggle to communicate that
47:01with their parents cuz we say things
47:02like, "Well, will you just leave me to
47:04do my thing and will you just stop?"
47:05Like, you know, and then the parent
47:06goes, "Hey, I'm just trying to look out
47:08for you. I'm trying to do what's best
47:09for you." And you're like, "Yeah, well,
47:10how do we set boundaries with people
47:13that we love and we know love us, but we
47:16can't keep feeling that judgment."
47:20>> Different level of boundaries that need
47:21to be applied. One is the boundary of
47:26time and space. If it's something that's
47:28really bad, I'm not going to be at the
47:30family reunion for four hours. I'm going
47:32to go say hi and leave when I need to
47:34leave.
47:34>> Distance is okay.
47:35>> Yeah, distance is okay if that's what's
47:37required for you. Certain topics of
47:40conversation not going to be in the
47:42cards for you and that's okay. The
47:45second is at least if you can
47:47acknowledge that for parents now that I
47:51am one judgment is a poor way of showing
47:54love and care. That's that's the deeper
47:58rooted feeling
47:59>> is I I desperately want to make sure
48:01you're okay. I desperately
48:03>> say that again because that is so good
48:05>> that judgment is a very poor substitute
48:09for love and care because that's the
48:10deeper need. Well, shouldn't you, you
48:14know, you you really should do this? You
48:15really should do, haven't you seen what
48:16so- and so is doing? It's it's deep care
48:20for you and how you are. Even though
48:23it's it's what they would want, it
48:25doesn't mean that matches what you want.
48:27And that's that's the major riff right
48:29there is if you can set aside what
48:32they're saying and instead hear the
48:34value. So let's apply this to the same
48:37framework rather than responding to what
48:42we are interpreting as the judgment and
48:45instead we respond to the value, the
48:49need, the care, the love for you, all of
48:52a sudden our response becomes different.
48:56So if let's say somebody brings
48:59something up at a family dinner [snorts]
49:02that you know is just it's it's a time
49:04bomb. They just they've now exposed
49:07this. Okay, I guess we're having this
49:09conversation. Okay, everybody, I guess
49:10we're having this conversation now,
49:12right? Instead of that, you use the
49:14framework of I can tell blank is
49:17important to you. And insert that blank
49:19into whatever category you're talking
49:20about. I can tell that my well-being is
49:22very important to you. I can tell that
49:24the kids and how I raise the kids is
49:27really important to you. I I can tell
49:29that the kids are important to you. I
49:31can tell that my financial s my security
49:35my is important to you and all of a
49:38sudden what they were judging about kind
49:40of goes away. I mean mothers will worry
49:43you to death. They wouldn't be a mother
49:47if they didn't. Yeah. I mean they
49:49wouldn't be doing their job so to speak,
49:53right? They they say the the hardest
49:55thing about parents is is that they had
49:57parents and maybe wish maybe they wish
50:01deep down that their parents cared.
50:04They wish their mom or dad had been as
50:07invested as they are. Now what what is
50:10different is when that judgment turns to
50:13demands and turns it sour the
50:15relationship instead of them giving you
50:17the grace to make decisions. I think
50:20part of love of a parent is you have to
50:22allow them to make mistakes.
50:24>> I mean then then then you do everything
50:26else for them. And maybe with parents
50:29it's it's the fear of not being relied
50:31upon anymore. I now have to just let
50:34this thing float in the water and I I
50:37can't ever control it again. That's very
50:40scary. Maybe instead of being so upset
50:43about their judgment, you see it as
50:44something of, well, maybe they're
50:46feeling they don't know who they are
50:47anymore without having somebody to take
50:49care of. And maybe I just need to speak
50:51to that mom, dad. Hey, thank you for
50:55everything that you've poured into me.
50:58and you when you speak to you've done
51:00everything that you can and I know that
51:01you've done the best of you that you can
51:04imagine the kind of conversations that
51:07can happen because most of the time when
51:08they in my experience when parents are
51:12nitpicking really what they're asking
51:15for is for you to fulfill the touch that
51:18deeper connection I'm not doing enough
51:21for my child
51:22>> and so when you can say hey you're a
51:25good mom hey you're a great dad and
51:28remind them of that, I think the
51:30conversation's always going to go
51:32better.
51:32>> I love that. And I hear people feeling
51:35like it can just be so exhausting to
51:37have to translate what everyone is
51:39saying
51:39>> Yeah.
51:40>> in an emotionally mature way and then
51:43respond to them almost parenting them.
51:47>> Oh, no doubt.
51:48>> But
51:48>> yeah,
51:49>> what you're saying is true that yes,
51:52it's exhausting. Yes, it takes time.
51:54Yes, it takes effort. But what's on the
51:56other side is so much more worthy than
52:00continuing to do what we're all doing
52:02right now, which isn't getting anywhere
52:04and isn't going anywhere.
52:05>> Yeah. I I I definitely subscribe to the
52:08mindset of what is good is worth
52:11whatever it takes.
52:12>> And if if it's not, then it's then it's
52:14not. You might hear what I said and go,
52:16"Look, Jefferson, yeah, more power to
52:18you, man. That sounds exhausting. I
52:20always have to do this with my parents."
52:21I'm not saying every time. There are
52:23certain times where no, you need to get
52:25in, get out.
52:26>> Yeah.
52:26>> They they bring up that topic and my
52:29favorite to use is maybe so.
52:31>> I use the phrase maybe so all the time.
52:34They give me a piece of advice or
52:35something or you maybe it's a stranger,
52:37whoever. It's Yeah, maybe so.
52:38>> Yeah.
52:39>> It has a way of just diffusing
52:41everything. You You've acknowledged what
52:42they said. You heard it.
52:44>> I didn't argue with it. Say, "Yeah,
52:46maybe so." Yeah. Well, thank you. I
52:48appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. Maybe
52:50maybe so. It has a way of just diffusing
52:53it and now they feel like, "Oh, okay.
52:55Well, I said what I need to say and then
52:57I'm I'm good."
52:58>> Yeah. Yeah. I wish I had that one back
53:00in the day. I remember with my extended
53:01family, they'd always be telling me that
53:03I'd told them I decided to become a
53:05monk. And I'd always hear this. It's the
53:07worst decision you're ever going to
53:08make. It's still, you know, and I and
53:09I'd always just say, "You're right.
53:11Yeah, probably."
53:12>> But I wish I said maybe. So, it's a good
53:14one because I didn't want to agree with
53:16them, but that's all I had in my
53:17vocabulary then. So, I be like, "Yeah,
53:19you're right. Maybe you're right. Like,
53:21you know, but I like maybe so a lot.
53:22That's
53:23>> Yeah, maybe so always works. I I also
53:25like I'd rather I'd rather hear about
53:26you.
53:27>> Yeah, [laughter] that's good, too.
53:28>> I use that one a lot. And uh anytime
53:31>> the dinner table might turn a little bit
53:33more political. It's like, you know, I'd
53:34rather hear about you.
53:35>> Yeah. Yeah.
53:35>> Nobody ever shies away from talking
53:37about themselves.
53:38>> Yeah. [laughter]
53:39>> Yeah.
53:39>> How do you You talked about sometimes
53:41distant, sometimes not engaging. How do
53:44you say no without feeling guilty?
53:46Because I think the challenge we have is
53:48a lot of us want to say no, but then we
53:50feel bad for saying no. We think, "This
53:52person gave me so much. They are trying.
53:55They're caring." And then we talk
53:56ourselves out of it, but then we just
53:57walk into a trap almost or walk into a
54:00and then we go, "Oh, I knew that was
54:01going to happen. I should have said no."
54:03So, how do you say no without feeling
54:05guilty?
54:06>> If you believe that the person truly
54:09cares about your well-being in your
54:11life, then they'd want you to say no. if
54:13you need to say no.
54:15Imagine if
54:17that's the relationship you thought you
54:19had. That they were always worried about
54:20your feelings
54:22that they actually [clears throat]
54:23weren't being real with you. And now
54:25what kind of relationship is it if you
54:27can't be authentic enough to actually
54:29share your your mind? Saying no is is
54:32very difficult depending on the context.
54:35No doubt. What I strive for when it
54:38comes to telling people no is to lead
54:41with the no first. Like let's say I
54:43needed to invite you to [snorts]
54:45something or let's say you needed to
54:46invite me to something and what do most
54:49people say? Oh my gosh, thank you so
54:51much. I appreciate it. I'd love to. Um
54:54but I can't. You know, I have all this
54:56stuff. I'm so busy. I have what? And you
55:00know, it's it's almost like, hey, look,
55:02if you couldn't go, just say you
55:03couldn't go. I don't need all this extra
55:05now. It just sounds inauthentic that
55:06you've given me so much
55:08>> because why? They were afraid that
55:09you're going to be disappointed by that.
55:11Start with the no first. I can't make
55:14it. Thank you for inviting me. I can't
55:16make it. Thank you so much. Rather than
55:19I'd love to, but I can't. But as a way
55:22of just deleting everything that has
55:24come before it. And I feel that if I
55:27need to say no to something in my mind,
55:30it's you want me to say no to this
55:32because I won't I'm not going to be my
55:35I'm not going to be my best. If you
55:37really feel uncomfortable about it, then
55:39say, "I've made a promise to myself of
55:41X. I've made a promise to myself that
55:43I'm going to be home more often. Made a
55:45promise to myself that I'm going to use
55:47this hour to do X, Y, and Z." People
55:50don't argue with promises. They don't
55:51want you to break promises, including
55:52promises that you've kept to yourself.
55:55And saying no is as easy as just saying
55:58no. It's the no because that gets you in
56:01trouble. No, it's just, you know, it's
56:03because I have to go feed my cat and,
56:06you know, I have this plant that I water
56:08and it's you you you give up all these
56:10excuses that end up diminishing your
56:13your credibility rather than just
56:16saying, "I can't make it. No, no, thank
56:20you. Not for me. Can't do it."
56:23Sometimes the kindest thing you can do
56:25is be as direct as you can be.
56:28>> I agree with you and I had to do that
56:30recently as well. And you always just
56:32don't want to let someone down and you
56:34don't want to, you know, make them feel
56:36bad. And you and you're so right. I I
56:38always turn to just commitments I've
56:41made to myself
56:42>> because I think because it's true and I
56:44think you're right that when you say but
56:45it feels like well I love that but this
56:47is more important.
56:48>> It's and yeah and and when it's a
56:51promise to yourself it's
56:53>> I'm trying to keep this promise to
56:54myself and everyone knows how hard it is
56:56to keep promises to yourself.
56:58>> And they'll encourage you.
57:00>> It's a real commitment. Yeah, it's a
57:01real commitment and it's and when it's
57:03genuine, it really lands. What do you do
57:05when the scenario is you say no and you
57:09do it in the best way possible and
57:11someone's upset with you and now you're
57:14towing this line between enabling them
57:17to make you say sorry and all this kind
57:19of stuff versus holding your standard.
57:22So, someone asks you to come to a party
57:24or to help them out with something. You
57:25say, "No, I can't.
57:27>> Kept a promise for myself that trying to
57:29spend more time at home. Can't travel."
57:31>> Now, they try and make you feel bad
57:33about it. And there's someone that you
57:35consider a real friend and they're not
57:37even trying to make you feel bad about
57:38it. They are just upset and they're kind
57:40of reflecting that back on you. Do you
57:43do anything? What do you do?
57:44>> I'd give it a Russ. Sometimes fires have
57:47to burn out. And if there's if it's a
57:50true friend, let's say, and they just
57:52send this text of it's this is just like
57:54you never to come and you just I always
57:56invite you. You're always late. And it's
57:58let that die out because when they're
58:01disregulated, you become disregulated.
58:04And then that's when you start saying
58:06things that you don't mean
58:07>> and saying things that are not going to
58:08help the situation. So give it 5 minutes
58:12before you choose to respond. In fact,
58:14if you can wait until the very next day
58:16because time has a way of sifting things
58:18out of what you need to respond to and
58:20you're also giving them some a little
58:22bit of grace of saying, "I know they're
58:24upset." Imagine if I instead of getting
58:27upset with you of everything you said, I
58:29looked at it and go, "Man, Jay's
58:31stressed out." If they're a true friend,
58:34hey, I I know you didn't mean that. I
58:35know you just you're overwhelmed. You're
58:37overwhelmed. Later on, let's say a day
58:41passes, two day passes, that's when you
58:43need to say, "Your words are not okay
58:46with me. What you just sent is below my
58:49standard for response."
58:51>> You need to be able to to tow that line
58:53of saying that no, I'm not going to I'm
58:56not going to accept that kind of
58:58behavior. It's okay to be disappointed
59:00and it's not okay to talk to me like
59:02that. M
59:03>> like you have to be able to to choose in
59:06conversation, same with boundaries, what
59:08am I going to accept, what am I going to
59:10say? Absolutely not.
59:12>> Absolutely not. It's it's the difference
59:14of if you were to yell at me or raise
59:16your voice at me, if I had no boundary,
59:19it would sound like you can't yell at
59:20me. Really? You think you can yell at
59:22you? Who you do you think you know who
59:24you're talking to? You can't yell at me.
59:26Versus if I have boundaries, I say I
59:29don't accept people to speak to me that
59:31way. I don't respond to that volume. Now
59:34it's become a me thing. Nothing that you
59:36can do. And now I' I've controlled I'm
59:39controlling the conversation. Now I'm
59:41taking it back. So if it's a friend, if
59:42it's a true friend, they ought to know
59:45what you really meant at that moment.
59:47And again, this talks about the capacity
59:49for letting somebody show you they're
59:52messy.
59:53>> Yeah. I know for a fact that as soon as
59:55I started living by some of this, my
59:56life just totally transformed. You just
59:59and people actually started to respect
1:00:01at least the ones that love you and are
1:00:03actually close to you started to really
1:00:05respect that honesty and started to
1:00:08really engage with it in a much more
1:00:10meaningful way where they weren't upset
1:00:13when you were honest because they saw
1:00:14you were always honest,
1:00:15>> right?
1:00:16>> And you were always real and all of a
1:00:18sudden it wasn't surprising anymore.
1:00:20Whereas in the beginning when you first
1:00:22start
1:00:23>> setting boundaries, people will be like,
1:00:25"Oh, wait a minute. You used to always
1:00:26be available. now you're not available.
1:00:28>> And and people have this reaction where
1:00:30like, hey, wait a minute. How do you
1:00:31have plans on a Saturday night? I'm the
1:00:32one who makes plans for us on a Saturday
1:00:34night.
1:00:34>> And then over time, people go, "Oh,
1:00:36yeah, that's just who you are now." And
1:00:37I think a lot of us go through these
1:00:40>> transitionary moments in our life where
1:00:42>> we go from having no boundaries to
1:00:44having boundaries. We go from having no
1:00:46standards to having standards. And when
1:00:48you get caught in the middle, people
1:00:49always point it out. And it feels really
1:00:51painful because you are going from
1:00:53someone who was never organized to being
1:00:54organized,
1:00:55>> right? But now over time people tend to
1:00:59respect and forget
1:01:00>> if someone is upset at your boundary it
1:01:05doesn't mean that it's wrong. It means
1:01:06that it's working. It's doing the very
1:01:08thing that you have the boundary in
1:01:10place to do that. That discomfort that
1:01:12you feel welcome. Welcome it because
1:01:15that's you choosing to do something
1:01:16different. And always that moment will
1:01:18pass. Discomfort temporary discomfort
1:01:20for long-term peace. Sign me up.
1:01:23[laughter]
1:01:23>> Yeah. where where can I sign up?
1:01:25>> Yeah.
1:01:26>> And and if you can understand that those
1:01:29moments of discomfort get quicker
1:01:32>> and get quicker and they and all of a
1:01:33sudden they become expected and it's not
1:01:36a bad thing. You you know how many times
1:01:37as an attorney I've heard arguments
1:01:39between two people or I've made
1:01:42arguments and it's nothing when it's
1:01:44these huge knockdown dragouts because
1:01:46I've seen a lot of it. It's not like I'm
1:01:49going to be oh my gosh they're yelling.
1:01:51Oh my god, I'm you know I'm we're in
1:01:53this argument because you've seen a lot
1:01:55of it. ER doctors, you know how many
1:01:57things they've seen. And then if you
1:01:59were to come with a scrape for them,
1:02:00you're like, "Oh, okay. This is this is
1:02:02nothing." The the small things become
1:02:04nothing. And that's what you have to
1:02:06remember. It's it's it's working a
1:02:08different muscle. And so whenever you
1:02:10feel that angst, take it as a sign for
1:02:13good that you're choosing to do
1:02:15something different. What when you work
1:02:17out and you feel sore, oh, I'm okay. I'm
1:02:19growing. That's the sore. It's it's you
1:02:21using a different muscle that's going to
1:02:24better your life.
1:02:25>> Yeah. Jefferson, I want to switch to the
1:02:27workplace because I know your expertise
1:02:29in the book also goes into that space
1:02:32and I think that's an area where
1:02:34communication is so challenging on so
1:02:37many different levels because now the
1:02:39incentive structure is different. The
1:02:41hierarchy is different. There's all
1:02:43these rules in place that in one sense
1:02:45you don't have in friendships and
1:02:47romantic relationships. If a coworker
1:02:50keeps interrupting you, how do you shut
1:02:52that down without sounding petty?
1:02:55>> I let them interrupt the first time,
1:02:57just the first because we've all seen
1:02:59the people who they interrupt once and
1:03:02they say, "Excuse me, I was I was
1:03:04talking. Excuse me." Yeah, I'm sorry.
1:03:07Where I did you not hear I was talking?
1:03:08And everybody in the room goes, "Whoa,
1:03:10whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, okay. Excuse
1:03:11me." I guess you have what? And all of a
1:03:14sudden, you become like the diva, right?
1:03:16You become the person that oh I cannot
1:03:17be interrupted. And sometimes more often
1:03:21than not the person who interrupted
1:03:24didn't even realize that they were doing
1:03:25it. It meant no intention whatsoever.
1:03:28And some of these people are neurode
1:03:30divergent. Some people have ADHD where
1:03:32they they it's going to happen. No bad
1:03:34intention behind it. And if I just let
1:03:37it happen and let them go on, let
1:03:39anybody who interrupted, no matter what,
1:03:42be able to say what they need to say,
1:03:44then I start again. Why? Because if they
1:03:47were interrupting me, they weren't going
1:03:48to listen to me anyway.
1:03:50>> Yeah.
1:03:50>> They weren't listening anyway. They were
1:03:52only thinking about what they had to
1:03:53say. Now, let them get it out and get it
1:03:56all out and show that I have some
1:03:57maturity, that I don't have to be first.
1:04:00I don't have to have the spotlight right
1:04:01in that moment. So after that first
1:04:03interruption, then I start over again
1:04:06exactly where I left off.
1:04:08>> It's not like a okay, I guess, thank you
1:04:11like that dismissive passive aggressive.
1:04:13It's start exactly where
1:04:15>> you were. And if they interrupt again,
1:04:18>> if they interrupt again, that's where I
1:04:20say,
1:04:21>> "I can't hear you when you interrupt me.
1:04:22I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
1:04:25I do the same thing with my kids. I
1:04:27can't hear you when you're whining. all
1:04:29of a sudden their voice changes
1:04:31[laughter] every time. You know, it's
1:04:34every time it's if it sends the signal
1:04:36if you want me to listen, there has to
1:04:38be some rules in place.
1:04:40>> And so the I can't hear you when you
1:04:43interrupt me. The I've also used I will
1:04:46listen to you when I'm finished. If you
1:04:48want me to hear you, you need to let me
1:04:49finish.
1:04:51>> It's it's me putting a an if then. It's
1:04:53a condition. It's logic. If you want me
1:04:57to listen to you, then you need to let
1:04:59me finish. And so, in order to get to
1:05:02what they want, they have to abide by
1:05:04the rules.
1:05:04>> Yeah. What are the mistakes we make in
1:05:06the workplace
1:05:08that in our communication that make
1:05:10people respect us less?
1:05:12>> Overexplaining. We say way too much. We
1:05:14say everything. We say the things you
1:05:16never asked for. We just keep going and
1:05:18we can't we we can't stop. We don't know
1:05:21why. You might have asked a simple
1:05:24question and all of a sudden next thing
1:05:26you know they're telling you everything
1:05:28probably sometimes way too personal and
1:05:31they realize I can't stop.
1:05:32Overexplaining has a way of diminishing
1:05:35not only your control but also your
1:05:37confidence
1:05:38>> where you've got out that conversation
1:05:40you go oh my gosh I just said way too
1:05:42much. Why did I say so much? It's
1:05:44because it's a it's a deeply rooted fear
1:05:46that you're not enough to be believed.
1:05:48So I have to overexlain. I have to say
1:05:50more so that you believe me more. So
1:05:53that you see how smart I am, that I do
1:05:55know what I'm talking about. That's why
1:05:57some people name drop so that you know
1:05:58that I'm important and I'm special and I
1:06:01and I'm worth uh this this job versus
1:06:05only saying what you need to say. Over
1:06:07explaining kills the confidence. What I
1:06:10say is rather than being a waterfall, be
1:06:14a well. Rather than trying to overexlain
1:06:17and say all the things at all the time,
1:06:20you just hold the knowledge and
1:06:22confidence of your own information and
1:06:23people will come to you and ask
1:06:25questions when they're ready. The
1:06:26overexlaining is a sure way of showing
1:06:28that you're not somebody that can really
1:06:30be relied on in [clears throat] that
1:06:32moment, especially when quick decisions,
1:06:34hard decisions need to be made.
1:06:37>> Well said. I like how when you're
1:06:40sharing these examples, there's a
1:06:42layering process almost like there's a
1:06:44step one
1:06:46>> and if that doesn't work then there's a
1:06:47step two and if that doesn't work then
1:06:48there's a step three. It's like there's
1:06:50degrees rather than like
1:06:52>> this is the right way and this is the
1:06:53wrong way. It's almost like it feels
1:06:54like there's an escalation
1:06:56>> and that's important because I think
1:07:00>> not everyone who looks like they're
1:07:03against you is truly against you. And
1:07:06you know in our mind we can often
1:07:08portray people in a certain way. I read
1:07:10something recently which I loved. It's
1:07:11called Hanland's razor where he said
1:07:14that don't attribute to malice what can
1:07:17adequately be explained by stupidity.
1:07:20>> And I love it. It's so good. It's so
1:07:22good. And it's like yeah like sometimes
1:07:24it's um you know I was thinking about it
1:07:26as like you know all the people that you
1:07:29think are stabbing you in the back.
1:07:30They're just clumsy elbows.
1:07:31>> Yeah.
1:07:32>> Like it's just the idea. Yeah. most of
1:07:34the time. And of course, there are
1:07:35certain
1:07:36>> cases some marsh pit. Yeah. That's
1:07:37>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like and it's like
1:07:39when you start giving
1:07:41>> when you stop thinking that everyone's
1:07:42against you and trying to stab you in
1:07:44the back,
1:07:45>> then you actually operate better as
1:07:47well. You can actually respond better as
1:07:48well. You can actually you can control
1:07:50the situation better because now you're
1:07:53not coming at a reaction. Two sides of
1:07:55this question. How do people advocate
1:07:58for themselves in the workplace
1:08:00confidently? How do you communicate in a
1:08:02way that you can do that? And on the
1:08:04other side, how do leaders communicate
1:08:08standards and feedback effectively so
1:08:10that people know what how they should
1:08:12grow?
1:08:13>> First would be to understand that most
1:08:15likely the person that you've talking
1:08:16that you're talking to has been where
1:08:18you've been. And we turn it into an us
1:08:20versus them. When I was a a young
1:08:23associate at the law firm that I was at,
1:08:26we would complain about the partners.
1:08:29We'd say these partners don't appreciate
1:08:32the us. They don't care. They don't
1:08:34understand. When I became a partner, the
1:08:37first email I got from an associate, I
1:08:39was like, these associates, they don't.
1:08:41They don't get the problems of a
1:08:43partner. We turn it into us versus them.
1:08:45The employer says these employees don't
1:08:48understand. Employees say management
1:08:50doesn't understand. When we don't stop
1:08:52to think that they have the same
1:08:54concerns, they're just as human and
1:08:56fallible as us. So if you need to
1:08:59advocate for yourself, it helps to be a
1:09:02student to have a a learner's mindset.
1:09:06So if I have to bring something to you
1:09:08rather than me sitting down go, okay,
1:09:09listen, I I'm not being paid near enough
1:09:12to be around here and deal with all this
1:09:14instead of that because from the
1:09:16management perspective, all they're
1:09:18thinking is, okay, I are they leaving?
1:09:21They're out the door. Okay, what does
1:09:22that cost? What does that do to
1:09:23overhead? What does that how is that
1:09:24going to affect my business? all the
1:09:26fears that they have deep within them of
1:09:29what that's going to do to their to
1:09:31their life. Same thing with the
1:09:33employee. They're feeling
1:09:34>> everybody's saying, "I want my ball and
1:09:37I'm I'm protecting me and mine in those
1:09:39kind of moments." But if I were to sit
1:09:40down and say when you were in my shoes,
1:09:45what did you find to be the best way of
1:09:48getting a higher salary or getting to
1:09:50your position or finding how did you
1:09:53find that you'd be more respected in
1:09:54this? People love to be asked for
1:09:57advice.
1:09:58>> Some people make podcasts about them,
1:10:00[laughter]
1:10:01you know, like it's it's but it's true.
1:10:05If you can go to your superior and say,
1:10:08"I need your advice.
1:10:09and then talk about the very thing
1:10:11without using your name or use your name
1:10:13that's fine of what you're dealing with
1:10:16all of a sudden it removes the sense of
1:10:19oh no what is this going to do and
1:10:20they're going to start thinking a
1:10:21thousand miles away now the fear is on
1:10:24but if I were to ask what did you find
1:10:27to be the best way to do x y and z when
1:10:29somebody you know when somebody sent you
1:10:31a rude email how did you handle that and
1:10:33what it does is actually create bond
1:10:35between you two and remembering hey both
1:10:38of you are human.
1:10:39>> When it comes to leadership, what I like
1:10:42to say is good leaders respond to
1:10:45conversation. Great leaders make room
1:10:47for it.
1:10:48>> Mhm.
1:10:48>> When I can encourage the difficult
1:10:51conversation in any organization that I
1:10:53go and talk to, I go and touch, I go and
1:10:55teach and train,
1:10:57the better that organization is going to
1:10:59be. Most of the time communication is
1:11:01they have no goal, no system,
1:11:04>> no values in terms of how do we want to
1:11:06communicate to each other.
1:11:08>> Mhm.
1:11:08>> You know, there's there's a difference
1:11:11between one restaurant that might just
1:11:13say thank you when they give you your
1:11:16food and the other says my pleasure.
1:11:18>> Right. There's there's a difference in
1:11:20and every little word nuance that you
1:11:23have when you can say what's our shared
1:11:25vocabulary
1:11:27>> and that's leadership and how we're
1:11:28going to communicate why because we've
1:11:30set the value and standard of how we
1:11:32want to be not only to the world and the
1:11:35outside but also within ourselves. So,
1:11:37am I really caring about you or am I
1:11:40just, hey, thanks for the email.
1:11:43>> Like, that's ultimately why I left my
1:11:45first law firm is I I was helping
1:11:48clients that were nice and great,
1:11:50>> but there was really no
1:11:52>> connection. It was just a file to them.
1:11:55And that that became where eventually
1:11:57the bill comes due and it's just yeah,
1:11:59you just you're left empty-handed. So
1:12:01it's creating the atmosphere to have
1:12:04difficult conversations and realizing
1:12:05that every opportunity to have a
1:12:08difficult conversation, everybody should
1:12:10be cheering.
1:12:11>> Everybody there should be some
1:12:12celebration and some confetti when you
1:12:15say this is a chance for us to grow.
1:12:17Yeah, this is a chance for us to to
1:12:18better it because we're okay with if
1:12:22[snorts] and like in sports or in
1:12:23business they the great leaders would
1:12:25say you embrace your failures because
1:12:28it's the failures are the things that
1:12:31are going to ultimately lead you to
1:12:32success. But we don't
1:12:34>> we don't do that with communication and
1:12:36difficult conversations but that's
1:12:37exactly it's exactly what it is.
1:12:40>> Jefferson I was already a fan and I'm a
1:12:42bigger fan after today. Truly
1:12:45absolutely brilliant. Such great advice.
1:12:47Just truly so practical and real and
1:12:50grounded. And I truly can't wait for
1:12:52people to get the book, The Next
1:12:53Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More. I
1:12:56really feel that this is like right at
1:12:59the core of so many of life's
1:13:01challenges. Like you could potentially
1:13:03you could argue that every challenge we
1:13:05go through on a daily basis is a
1:13:07communication issue.
1:13:08>> And I really believe that this is the
1:13:10book that has the answers. and so
1:13:12grateful that you showed up today and
1:13:14just shared so much amazing insight. Uh
1:13:16we end every episode with a final five.
1:13:19These have to be questions that are
1:13:20answered in one word to one sentence
1:13:22maximum. So most people take one
1:13:24sentence. No one ever does it in one
1:13:26word.
1:13:27>> So Jefferson Fisher, these are your
1:13:28final five. Okay.
1:13:30>> The first question is, what is the best
1:13:31advice you've ever heard or received?
1:13:34>> You can't look back and ho a straight
1:13:36row. [laughter]
1:13:38It's like when you're gardening or you
1:13:40can't you you can't look back and also
1:13:43>> create a it's it's like saying you you
1:13:45can't drive a boat by staring at the
1:13:47wake. You can't look back.
1:13:49>> Yeah. Well said. Uh second question.
1:13:51What is the worst advice you've ever
1:13:53heard or received?
1:13:54>> Saying nice things will serve you well.
1:13:59>> Being playing nice will serve you well.
1:14:02Because if you say that nice serves you
1:14:06well, what ends up happening is that you
1:14:08eventually end up serving it.
1:14:11>> You people please. You say the nice
1:14:13thing at the expense of of being real.
1:14:17>> Yeah. Question number three. What is the
1:14:20difference between being real and being
1:14:23harsh?
1:14:24>> My intention for your ultimate good. M
1:14:27>> if I truly want the best for you, then
1:14:30I'm going to be okay with saying the
1:14:32harsh thing cuz I won't regret it.
1:14:34>> But I will regret saying the thing that
1:14:37isn't as real as it should be.
1:14:39>> Yeah. And it all comes down to
1:14:40intention.
1:14:40>> Yes.
1:14:41>> Sometimes we say we're being real, but
1:14:43really we're just being harsh. Like we
1:14:44just don't really care
1:14:46>> and it comes across harsh and someone's
1:14:47like, "That's a bit harsh." And like,
1:14:48well, I'm just being real.
1:14:49>> Yes. They could use as a mask.
1:14:50>> Yes. Exactly.
1:14:51>> Yeah. They use it as a mask of Wayne,
1:14:52well, this is just who I am. I'm just,
1:14:54you know, you can take it or or leave
1:14:56it. But really, it's when you're harsh,
1:14:59it's most of the time you're just being
1:15:00lazy with your words.
1:15:01>> Yeah.
1:15:02>> You know, you're being lazy with other
1:15:03people's feelings, including your own.
1:15:05Like, you should have enough intention
1:15:06behind it of caring about how you
1:15:09package it. If I were to give you a gift
1:15:11>> and it still has the receipt and I just
1:15:13hear you have it versus me actually
1:15:15caring about the package, I'm putting
1:15:17intention that I really care about you
1:15:19and how things are delivered.
1:15:21>> Yeah, absolutely. Question number four.
1:15:24I'm intrigued. What's your favorite word
1:15:26in the English language?
1:15:28[sighs and gasps]
1:15:28>> Genuine. It's to me it it brings up just
1:15:32playing baseball and it says genuine
1:15:34leather in the poem of like is real.
1:15:37This is what I have. This is who I am.
1:15:39There's a there's a sense of
1:15:41>> soul and earthiness to it
1:15:44>> of when I know when somebody's being
1:15:46genuine and and real with me
1:15:49>> and that somebody it's like a good pair
1:15:50of jeans, you know? You just know I can
1:15:53rely on and depend on it.
1:15:55>> That's a great answer. Uh fifth and
1:15:57final question. We ask this to every
1:15:58guest who's ever been on the show. If
1:16:00you could create one law that everyone
1:16:02in the world had to follow, what would
1:16:04it be?
1:16:06>> Talk more.
1:16:08argue less.
1:16:09>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I I
1:16:13I stand by this very real understanding
1:16:18that one day we're going to have a
1:16:21conversation. You're going to have a
1:16:22conversation. I'm going to have a
1:16:23conversation with somebody that we love
1:16:24and it'll be the last one we ever get
1:16:26with them and we won't know it.
1:16:30So, you need to say the thing, talk like
1:16:33today matters because it does. So you
1:16:36need to talk more. Relationships don't
1:16:39fall apart usually over what was said.
1:16:41It's over what was not said.
1:16:44>> Same thing with businesses. It's
1:16:46misalignment doesn't happen because of
1:16:48one big moment. It happens in a thousand
1:16:51conversations that didn't. And so when
1:16:53you can talk more and reach more and
1:16:56understand more, the better it's going
1:16:57to be.
1:16:58>> It's a great answer. Jefferson Fischer,
1:17:01the book is called The Next
1:17:02Conversation. and everyone who's been
1:17:03listening and watching, please tag me
1:17:05and Jefferson with the communication tip
1:17:08insight that you're going to use this
1:17:09week. I want you to actually try and
1:17:11practice this whether it's at work,
1:17:14whether it's with your partner, whether
1:17:16it's with a parent, whether it's with a
1:17:18friend. Try and start practicing these
1:17:20tools this week because you'll actually
1:17:22see the difference and then you'll be
1:17:25focused and engaged to learn more.
1:17:26Follow Jefferson on Instagram and Tik
1:17:28Tok if you don't already. and Jefferson,
1:17:30I hope this is the first of many times
1:17:32you come on the show. Same here. Uh
1:17:33truly so grateful to get to know you
1:17:35today and congrats on everything and
1:17:37truly your your insight's going to
1:17:39change a lot of lives. So, thank you so
1:17:40much.
1:17:41>> I appreciate that, Jay. It's been it's
1:17:42been a blessing to get to talk to you,
1:17:43man.
1:17:44>> Thank you, man. If you enjoyed this
1:17:45conversation, you'll love my episode
1:17:48with the world's leading relationship
1:17:50therapist, Esther Prell, where we talk
1:17:52about why your ego is ruining your
1:17:55relationships and how to date more
1:17:57effectively. I think we need to
1:17:59differentiate.

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