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06/11/2023: Thaçi et al, Trial hearing (reclassified) — Transcript

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0:09All right.
0:21>> The Kosovo Specialist Chambers is now in
0:24session.
0:24>> Be seated.
0:44Madam court officer, you can call the
0:46case.
0:47>> Good morning, honors. This is KCBC
0:4920206, the specialist prosecutor versus
0:52Hashimi.
0:57Thank you.
1:09Before we start the hearing uh the
1:12evidence uh here before we start the
1:14hearing of the evidence uh of
1:17prosecution witness W3825
1:20there is a preliminary issue the panel
1:22wishes to deal with namely the issue of
1:25the publicity of the proceedings.
1:29The panel recalls that last May had it
1:30ordered the parties and participants to
1:32engage in interparties discussions and
1:35to submit proposals on concrete steps
1:37that could be taken to ensure a greater
1:40degree of publicity of the proceedings.
1:43The specialist prosecutor, the defense
1:45and victims council filed helpful
1:47submissions on 31 May and 1 June of
1:502023.
1:52On 30th of October 2023, the panel
1:55proposed a procedure for the post-
1:57testimony review of private sessions of
2:00transcripts of proceedings of hearings.
2:03Uh that day, the panel granted the
2:05parties and the participants
2:07some time to consider these proposals.
2:10Following on from this, the SPO proposed
2:12a revised procedure for the post
2:14testimony review of transcripts.
2:17Uh and I believe it was mentioned
2:20favorably by Mr. Emerson a week ago. The
2:23panel would now like to hear the parties
2:25and participants views on these
2:27proposals starting with the prosecution.
2:32Thank you, your honor. Uh, as as the
2:33court is aware, we sent the revised
2:35proposal on 1 November 2023 at 6 p.m. We
2:40have nothing to add beyond what we've
2:41indicated in that proposal.
2:44>> Mr. Ke.
2:45>> Yes, your honor. Uh, I had communicated
2:47with Mr. howling that as his proposal
2:50goes it we have no objection to it. I of
2:53course have the larger objection which
2:54is you know this what we're doing here
2:57is not open and is closed and nobody can
3:01follow this and whether or not this
3:03procedure you know augments that problem
3:05or helps or alleviates it. Uh I do
3:08believe that it's not going to help at
3:10all because you know we have close
3:12session after close session and people
3:14going back and reviewing these
3:15transcripts redacted or undirected. I
3:18think the likelihood of people going
3:19back to do that absent academics is
3:22remote. It's just not going to happen.
3:24So if we engage in this as move as we
3:27move forward, we're just perpetuating
3:29the problem. And I'm not taking issue
3:32with what what Mr. Hing has put on the
3:34table. I'm taking issue as to how we as
3:36collectively uh your honor are handling
3:38this problem. We have to be in a
3:41situation where the public understands
3:44at the time it's happening what's
3:46happening and we are not close to that.
3:49Putting aside the particular witness
3:50that may be testifying today, we need to
3:52go back to the witnesses that are coming
3:54up and take a very very hard look as to
3:58whether or not those witnesses merit uh
4:01protective measures. It it's hard for me
4:03to believe that that we have a situation
4:06where, for instance, one of the early
4:07witnesses who didn't have protective
4:09measures and he comes in and says,
4:10"Well, I'm uncomfortable about it." And
4:12gets
4:12>> Mr. Kio shorten it up a bit.
4:14>> Yes. I And I don't I don't disagree with
4:16this procedure. I dis I think all of us
4:18disagree with the fact that we continue
4:21to perpetuate a problem of
4:22non-disclosure of these proceedings.
4:24Thank you.
4:24>> Thank you, Mr. Emerson.
4:28>> We we're entirely happy with the uh
4:30revised proposal. um as as the best that
4:34that can be achieved. The only slight um
4:36amendment I'd invite your honors to
4:38consider is that with the court's
4:41permission uh the parties in this case
4:45it'll be the defense uh should have
4:47liberty to apply to the court to um uh
4:50seek a further deaction if relevant
4:53material becomes uh apparent to us. In
4:56other words, I if the situation changes
5:00that we should have the right to come
5:01back and ask for particular redactions
5:03to be lifted if there's a good enough
5:05reason to persuade you that that that
5:07ought to be um considered.
5:09>> Thank you, Mr. Emerson.
5:11>> Uh good morning, Mr. President. Uh your
5:13honors, um we have already agreed to the
5:16proposal by the prosecution by email and
5:17I have nothing to add. Thank you,
5:19>> Mr. Ellis.
5:20>> Uh yes, nothing further to add, your
5:22honors. We we've also indicated our
5:23agreement. All right, we will Oh, I'm
5:26sorry. Go ahead.
5:29>> Yes, we've also indicated our agreement
5:31and we're content with the prosecution's
5:33uh proposals. Uh we we were uh we're
5:37doing this process in case 4 as well.
5:38So, we've had experience of it. It is
5:40very time consuming and if I speak
5:42frankly, I'd say we were concerned about
5:45the turnaround time for the party
5:47receiving the prosecutions or the
5:49calling parties redactions, which was
5:51three days. We we would submit that's
5:54not really going to be long enough and
5:55the SPO's proposal I is much more
5:58sensible. We would say
6:02>> thank you very much. We will consider
6:04this and enter an oral order hopefully
6:07yet today.
6:12I note that uh
6:15Mr. Kresnichi is appearing via video
6:18link and the other accused are all
6:21present in court.
6:25Today we start the hearing on the
6:26evidence of prosecution witness W03825.
6:30Madame court officer, please bring the
6:33witness in.
6:36Your honor, um before we do that, if I
6:38may, um in the uh email to the parties
6:42and the panel, there was a request for
6:45the consideration of a special measure,
6:46which I know I included. I just wanted
6:48to make sure if the court wanted to
6:49address it that we did so before we
6:51bring the witness in.
6:56And if you'd like further discussion, I
6:57I would just request that we go to
6:58private session.
7:00>> Has an application been made?
7:04It was simply a notification of um since
7:06it's a special measure, it's not a
7:08protective measure and um it was
7:10communicated in the email that was sent
7:12um the inner party's email with the
7:14preparation note. So if we could move to
7:16private session, I could very briefly
7:18explain the situation.
7:19>> All right, into private session please.
7:21briefly.
7:35>> Your honorable in private session.
7:37>> All right. Go ahead, madam prosecutor.
7:39>> Thank you, your honor. Um this witness
7:42uh indicated when he arrived um uh when
7:45he was preparing to come to the H and
7:47then when he arrived in the H that he
7:48was interested in testifying in close
7:50session um we advised him of the
7:53standard um sought the specifics of why
7:56uh he was making such a request and
7:59after having multiple conversations
8:01which have all been disclosed um we we
8:04uh have not made an application for
8:06protective measures in this situation.
8:07And the witness has previously spoken
8:09publicly about this incident and
8:11publicized the fact that he was coming
8:13here as a witness on um last Friday or a
8:16week ago Ready?
11:01I'm here now.
11:08>> That's why I'm here.
12:57What's the status with the the audio
13:01>> that
13:06Could
13:34somebody from the translator speak?
13:36Just so we can test.
13:47>> Yes, I can hear you now. Yes.
13:52>> All right. Court officer, you may bring
13:54the witness in.
13:55>> Mr. President, if if I may just briefly
13:58um as I understand procedurally the
14:00prosecution is not the witness has
14:02requested of the prosecution protective
14:04measures and the prosecution is not
14:07making that application but under rule
14:0981 the rule specifically grants a
14:12witness personal standing to bring an
14:14application.
14:16>> Okay. And then we'll make our
14:17submissions after that.
14:41Good morning witness. Can you hear me
14:44or the translator? Okay.
14:46>> Yes, I can.
14:48now provide you with the text of the
14:51solemn declaration which you are asked
14:53to take pursuant to rule 141 paragraph
14:56two of the rules. So please read that
14:59aloud.
15:05Conscious
15:06of the significance of my testimony and
15:09my legal responsibility,
15:11I solemnly declare that I will tell the
15:14truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
15:17the truth, and that I shall not withhold
15:20anything which has come to my knowledge.
15:24>> You witness, you may be seated.
15:39Witness, today we will start your
15:40testimony which is expected to last
15:42approximately 3 days. As you may know,
15:46the prosecution may ask you questions
15:48first. Victim's council will not be
15:51asking you questions. Therefore, once
15:53the prosecution
25:28All right. Good morning again, witness.
25:30Um, I know that you and I have met
25:32before. Um, I'll reintroduce myself. My
25:34name is Deborah Mayor, and I'll be
25:36asking you questions on behalf of the
25:37SPO. First, I'd like to ask your
25:40personal details. Can you please state
25:42your full name for the record?
25:50George
25:52>> George.
25:56>> What is your date of birth?
26:01>> 23rd
26:02of April 1954.
26:06>> And what is your citizenship and
26:08ethnicity?
26:12>> Shipar.
26:13I'm an Albanian, a Kosovan.
26:19>> What is your highest level of education
26:21or your highest degree?
26:30>> I graduated
26:32from the University of Christina,
26:36philosophy and sociology department
26:39and uh
26:42finished
26:44studies uh in the faculty of law
26:47postgraduate studies that is
26:53>> I'd like to go very briefly through your
26:55professional background were you a
26:58professor from approximately 1984 to
27:011998
27:09comes
27:10>> yes I was a professor
27:14And in approximately 1991,
27:18did you found and become the chairman of
27:21a party in Kosovo?
27:30>> In 1991,
27:33we formed the Liberal Party.
27:37Initially I was the general secretary of
27:39the party and in 1993 I was elected
27:43chairman of the liberal party of Kosovo.
27:49In 1998
27:51did you leave your teaching and begin uh
27:54a career in government service in public
27:57service positions?
28:06because
28:08Serbia had intensified genocide and
28:12terror
28:14against the civilian population of
28:17Kosovo.
28:20We were forced
28:22and I'm speaking on my behalf
28:26to withdraw from the education and
28:30teaching and
28:33I put all my capacities
28:36towards the internationalization of the
28:39Kosovo issue and towards the
28:42organization of uh the life of the
28:45population to the extent we could since
28:48the schools in the Albanian language
28:52were closed. The teachers were expelled
28:56and we were trying to do as much as we
29:00could to regulate the life in those
29:02difficult
29:04conditions. These were the main reason
29:06why I left education.
29:11>> Thank you. And when you left education,
29:13did you then start with a number of
29:16positions in public service? So member
29:18of parliament and then serving as
29:20minister in different departments and
29:23ultimately as ambassador.
29:29>> I was never a minister
29:31during the war. I was
29:36an organizer of all uh demonstrations
29:39against the butcher and criminal of the
29:42Balkans, Milovich.
29:44I organized about 60 demonstrations in
29:49Pristina which I led in 98 in order to
29:54sensibilize sensibilize the issue of
29:57Kosova the Kosovo liberate to solidarize
30:01with the KA
30:04and with NATO in order to intervene in
30:07Kosova to save the innocent
30:10civilians
30:12against whom an unprecedent that
30:14violence was being pressured. We in 98
30:19we also held some election
30:23which in a way was controversial but we
30:27wanted to have an address when
30:30internationals came to Kosovo to
30:32negotiate with the Liberal party
30:36uh six deputies in the if I might say so
30:40assembly of Kosovo and I was elected one
30:45of the deputy speakers of that assembly.
30:48And that was the most critical and most
30:52historical phase for Kosovo and his
30:56future.
30:57Then
30:59in addition to other things which we
31:02might refer to later in 2004
31:07I became a member of the Kosovo assembly
31:11when the transitional council was set
31:14up. I was a member of that council. I
31:16was a deputy minister in several
31:19departments and finally
31:22foreign deputy minister of the republic
31:24of Kosovo
31:28and recently ambassador of the Kosovo
31:31Republic
31:34and I was uh politically and forcefully
31:38obliged to leave by the so-called
31:43president Osmani for political purposes.
31:45is because she replaced me with her
31:48husband
31:50in cooperation with the Turkish uh
31:53embassy in Scopia. They removed me from
31:55the position of the ambassador.
31:58>> Thank you for your um professional
32:00background. Were you a member of the LDK
32:03ever?
32:07>> Ask her.
32:07>> Never.
32:09>> I never was and I never will.
32:13were a member of the KLA.
32:19>> I was not a member of the KLA because we
32:24not everyone had the privilege or the
32:28bravery to become a KA member.
32:35>> Sir, do you have any permanent injuries
32:37to your right arm?
32:44I don't have any injury. I am injured in
32:48my heart. My heart is
32:52full of wires.
32:56I have stance put in my heart. My soul
33:00is hurt. My whole being because Serbia
33:05killed 12 members of my family,
33:08civilians among whom two children.
33:11Nicola 15 years old and Lynon 14 years
33:16old students in the high school.
33:20In this courtroom
33:23in this composition,
33:26I spoke
33:28in face of me criminal Melvich.
33:33Antona and Mela came to speak against
33:36Milosvich,
33:38testifying
33:40to all his crimes committed in Kosova
33:43together with his collaborators.
33:50>> Witness, I'd like to direct your
33:52attention to September of 1998.
33:56Did you have a position in parliament at
33:58the time?
34:02Yes, I was a member of parliament and
34:05deputy speaker of the same parliament.
34:09>> Did there come a time in approximately
34:11August of 1998 when you were involved in
34:14organizing a group of parliamentarians
34:17and others to visit the local
34:19population?
34:26>> Well, yes.
34:29After a talk with
34:32historic president Dr. Ibrahim Rugova,
34:38we
34:40discussed
34:42that it would be a good thing for the
34:44leadership of uh official Pristina,
34:49who stayed in Pristina but who were not
34:52facing directly the war to go and visit
34:56the war zones to form a direct opinion
35:00of the situation of the civilian
35:03population
35:06which even if I were to stay here for a
35:08month I would not be able to describe
35:11you might not
35:13trust what I'm going to say only one who
35:16has been witnessed to it can so
35:18president Ruggo has said that he had
35:20talked with the chief of the US
35:22diplomatic mission Shan Burns that it
35:25would be a good thing for us to form a
35:28delegation
35:32composed of people who can and are brave
35:35enough to visit the war zones. I headed
35:38a delegation. It was a large delegation
35:42and the first visit that we conducted
35:44was on the 29th of August and then we
35:47continued with other visit in
35:48Malishvanis
35:52Gad.
35:54The fourth visit
35:57was in Trenita where we
36:01heard that the population was in a dire
36:05situation
36:06being under the permanent pressure and
36:10terror of the Milvich forces.
36:15um if you can limit your answers as best
36:18as possible to just the question that
36:20I'm asking so that I have an opportunity
36:22to ask follow-up questions. All right.
36:25Um
36:26we talked about whether or not you were
36:28set up a delegation. I I'll get to the
36:30visits that you did. Um you mentioned
36:33that you contacted uh President Regova.
36:38Um, was there any tension at the time
36:41between the KLA and other institutions
36:44of Kosovo when you um went about setting
36:46up this delegation?
36:55>> Well, there was lack of coordination,
36:58lack of information.
37:01And I'm talking about the political
37:04leadership and parties in Christina
37:08which
37:13were very concerned
37:17at the appearance of the Kosovo
37:20Liberation Army, the Guerilla units
37:23which
37:24in fact turned out to be the liberator
37:26of Kosovo. So there were individuals
37:30even among various political parties
37:33that disinformed the public
37:37uh regarding the KA.
37:40And personally I was very willing to go
37:46to those zones
37:48endangering our very lives because we
37:51had to pass through SER
37:54post blocks
37:56and in order to reach the civilian
38:00population. You ask me to give brief
38:02answers.
38:04But what we are discussing
38:08the topic regarding Kosovo cannot be
38:10explained with short answers because by
38:13so doing we came to a situation that we
38:17shouldn't be. So I'm willing to stay
38:19here even a month to tell you the truth.
38:23as it is asked. The prosecution will ask
38:27follow-up questions if necessary. She's
38:30correct. You are going on at length
38:32about things that are not in the
38:34question. So, please listen to the
38:35question and just answer the question
38:38briefly.
38:41>> Thank you, your honor. And just as an
38:43administrative note, I've been informed
38:44that um the materials that we submitted
38:47into parties that um are now marked and
38:49have been disclosed, we just ask with
38:51the court's permission that they be
38:53added to the uh presentation cue so that
38:55all the parties can use them. It's the
38:57preparation note and the five um items
39:00that were provided by the witness to the
39:02SPO. So um I just asked for the
39:06>> Any objection to that process?
39:08>> No objection.
39:10>> No objection.
39:14No petitioner.
39:15>> Thank you.
39:18Right. Um so my question sir was was
39:22there you said there was lack of
39:24coordination but would you say there was
39:25tension between um uh the KLA and the
39:30institutions of Kosovo? That's my
39:32question.
39:36There were tensions in the sense that
39:40from the from its public appearance for
39:43the first time on the 28th of November
39:4797 at the burial ceremony of teacher Hal
39:52Gat Halid Gatsi in L.
39:58It was looked upon with some reservation
40:01but it started to grow spread and enjoy
40:05the respect of all Kosovo. So we
40:09political forces were rather jealous of
40:13its appearance
40:15>> tension.
40:16You need to talk about the question of
40:18whether or not there was tension.
40:24Yes,
40:26>> if we might say so. There were failure,
40:29as I said, to coordinate to understand
40:32what was going on.
40:39>> Were you a supporter of President
40:40Rugova?
40:45Yes, that I was certainly a supporter of
40:49President Kos Rugova because he's the
40:52founder
40:54of the platform of Kosovo Republic and
40:57State and the later leader Hashim
41:03concluded the process of Kosovo
41:05independence.
41:08>> Right. And you mentioned that um you
41:10spoke with President Rogova and that
41:12there had been a suggestion to set up
41:13this delegation. What was your
41:16intention? What were you going to do
41:18when you made these visits?
41:24I was the chairman of the Liberal Party
41:27of Kosovo, the first and only political
41:31party in Kosovo,
41:35which was part of the European Liberal
41:38Allian Democratic alliance with its
41:40headquarter in Brussels. and I con I had
41:47several visits in NATO headquarters and
41:50other institutions.
41:52So I had to gather information from the
41:56grassroots to in order to be able to
41:58provide direct information
42:01>> to do on your visits. That's all.
42:08Our aim was humanitarian of a
42:12humanitarian nature to see from close up
42:17life as we might say the terror,
42:20genocide and crimes perpetrated by Serbs
42:24in legendary Ditita, in brave Ditita
42:29which was often subject to crimes
42:32discrimination in also in the past. and
42:36we wanted to get firsthand information
42:39on what was going on.
42:43>> You mentioned that you went to several
42:44locations. Can you just list the number
42:47of visits that you had in each location?
42:49So, in order
42:54May,
42:56>> you want me to describe all visits, but
42:59then I'll be speaking quite at length.
43:04don't want you to describe all visits. I
43:06want you to just list.
43:08>> So tell us how many how many visits?
43:11>> Four
43:13of each.
43:14>> Four visits.
43:17>> So if you can just tell us the number of
43:19visits.
43:20>> Sorry.
43:20>> And then list the locations of each
43:22visit.
43:27>> Cutter visit.
43:28>> Four visits.
43:31Malishvine
43:34Pagarouch and Bellan
43:38Gut Senate. The third visit we were
43:42stopped by Serbian paramilitaries in pay
43:46because we wanted to go to Gan
43:49where we had heard that in the Catholic
43:53church were gathered thousands of
43:56displaced Albanians. But the
43:58paramilitaries forced us to go back to
44:01pay threatening us
44:04telling us that go straight because if
44:07you stop somewhere we are going to kill
44:09you. So they forced us to go to
44:11pristina. The fourth visit was in to
44:14preass
44:18>> I'm sorry where was the fourth visit?
44:24The fourth correction was
44:27because we got information that the tra
44:31population was in a describable
44:35situation unimaginable situation for
44:38you. So we wanted as I said jeopardizing
44:42our life to see from close up the
44:46civilian population in Ritz
44:50and we stopped first at village
44:56>> just to make sure we have a clear
44:57record. There were four planned visits.
45:00You made the first two visits. On the
45:03third visit, you were turned back by
45:05Serbian authorities and your fourth
45:07visit stopped in Cherz. Is that right?
45:16>> Yes, that's right.
45:18>> I want to focus on your visit, that
45:20fourth visit, the one to Cher. Do you
45:22recall the date that you went on that
45:24visit?
45:29It might have been 19th or 20 September
45:331998.
45:36>> Well, 25 years have passed since then.
45:40And what we went through, I can't tell
45:43you. I don't know how I'm able to come
45:45and sit here before you.
45:50>> All right. about how many people were in
45:53this group when you went on that visit
45:55to CHZ in September 1998
46:02this
46:03>> apart from some deputies
46:06we were
46:08I I don't I can't be accurate 10 or 12
46:10deputies maybe there were journalists
46:14some ladies
46:17>> drive drivers
46:19>> because we went wearing suits and ties
46:23with cars like we were going to a
46:26wedding. I told you why we went
46:30and in
46:32maybe our group consisted of 30 35
46:36members. I don't want to speculate but
46:39more or less that was the number.
46:43>> You recall the names of the delegates?
46:46So the members of parliament that were
46:48on that visit
46:56>> I have
46:58a remark to ex critical remark
47:02you haven't left me here given me here a
47:05notebook to write the names to to
47:07remember the names because 25 years have
47:11passed and I can't remember what I did
47:13yesterday.
47:15If you take into account what I went
47:17through, you may understand that I may
47:20have forgotten things and I might appear
47:23as if I am not sincere and truthful,
47:26which in fact I want to tell the truth
47:28before this court. I was the chairman of
47:32this delegation.
47:34Clementi was my
47:38deputy in a way. I would say
47:41a lady whose husband and two sons were
47:45later killed by the Serbs.
47:48They killed 12 p members of my family.
47:51There were other members.
48:10You have the names.
48:12>> So the names I've given you, those are
48:14the names. Maybe I may have forgotten
48:16one someone.
48:21>> Thank you. And if there is something
48:23that'll refresh your recollection, um
48:25the court will allow us to bring that
48:27up. So um I'm going to do that now. If I
48:30could ask the court officer with the
48:31court's permission to bring up
48:34um it's uh ERN sitf
48:39055872
48:44I'm sorry um 55783
48:47to 00000055996
48:50is the document
48:52and then within that document
48:56if you can go to page
48:59uh 90 to 91 of the PDF. It's 55872
49:04in the English and 873 in the Albanian.
49:47sir. Do you see that document on the
49:49screen?
49:52>> Oh,
49:53>> yes.
49:56of the names of the delegates that were
49:58there in Cherz.
50:02>> Paul,
50:03>> yes.
50:08>> And to the right of their name, it has
50:11um I'll start with you. Your name is at
50:13the top and it has PLK. What does that
50:16stand for?
50:18>> Partia Liberal.
50:20>> Liberal Party of Kosovo.
50:24down the list there are similar
50:25notations notations on the right for
50:28each of the individual delegates. Are
50:30those the political parties of each of
50:32those delegates?
50:44Democratic uh
50:48Popular Party of Kosovo,
50:52Independent Trade Unions, Christian
50:55Democratic Party of Kosovo. These are
50:58the acronyms for the political parties.
51:02>> So my question is those notations on the
51:05right, is that the political party of
51:07the person that it's listed next to? So
51:10for instance, Miss Kamedi,
51:13she was LDK. So that's why that notation
51:15is there.
51:17>> Yes.
51:20>> Yes.
51:22>> To ask you if you can describe how it is
51:25that you got to Cherz. Did you all go
51:27together in one vehicle? Did you take
51:30separate vehicles?
51:36No,
51:38we did not go
51:41by
51:42bus. We could not go by one vehicle. We
51:46were too many persons. We went uh with
51:50several vehicles. I was with
51:53Madame Kel Mendi in the first vehicle.
51:56The other vehicles were following up. We
51:59were stopped at checkpoints. We were
52:02checked. We were threatened. We were
52:05offended, but we did uh proceed with the
52:09journey.
52:12>> And when you say that you were stopped,
52:14were you stopped at Serbian checkpoints?
52:22At every Serb checkpoint, there were
52:26Serb checkpoints
52:28along the road manned by mil
52:32paramilitaries, police officers, members
52:35of the military, fascists, racists,
52:39whatever you could find at that time.
52:42Impossible.
52:46And did you you did get through those
52:48checkpoints though unlike the earlier
52:50visit you made it to Cherz. Is that
52:52right?
52:58>> We went there
53:00because we wanted to go but uh they
53:04could send us back. They could imprison
53:07us. They could kill us. We were ready uh
53:12for all possible varants.
53:17>> And my question is did you did get
53:20through all those checkpoints on this
53:21visit and make it to Chz? Is that right?
53:29>> Yes. Uh, we did arrive in Cherz.
53:36>> The KLA on your journey to Cherz.
53:45>> In Chz, we saw, more precisely at the
53:50entrance to Chz, we saw KLA members. We
53:54went to the village mosque
53:58at the outset. As far as I remember, it
54:01had been shelled by the Serbian forces
54:04at that time. I uh visited the
54:07population, the civilian population, the
54:10ill, the children, the women who were in
54:14that mosque in deplorable conditions.
54:19I spoke to them. We spoke to them to
54:23encourage them.
54:28It's a mistake that you're not letting
54:30me describe this in more detail because
54:33after these visits, we would go to the
54:36diplomatic uh US mission in Kosovo and
54:40to uh the international red cross with
54:45these details so that they could help
54:47the population. So we visited them. Then
54:51we visited uh center information center
54:55of the LDK an office uh to be able to
55:01ask the local population about the
55:03situation in Chz.
55:07>> Sir, I appreciate that you want to add
55:09more detail, but I'm asking you before
55:11you got to Cher, though, so we haven't
55:13gotten there yet. I may have other
55:15questions that get to what you're
55:16speaking to. Um, so my question is, did
55:19you encounter the KLA before arriving in
55:22Cherz? And I believe you said that it
55:24was at the entrance to the village. Is
55:25that right?
55:34>> We saw a vehicle.
55:38>> It's a problem for me to remember all
55:41the details to recall in fact the
55:44details.
55:46But they did not speak to us. They just
55:49moved on and we were not worried at all
55:55from the KLA members. Our main concern
55:59was the situation of the civilian
56:01population. And to tell you the truth,
56:04when we saw the KA, we were very happy
56:08and very proud.
56:11Um, do you know if the KLA uh was aware
56:15of your visit ahead of time before you
56:18arrived in Churz?
56:26I don't think so because
56:30in Bristina
56:32there was a KA
56:34office
56:36so-called
56:38office headed by Mr. Adam Deachi
56:43and uh as far as I know
56:50Albin Corti the current prime minister
56:53was there in that office as an
56:56interpreter or something like that I
56:58don't know in what capacity but we did
57:00not inform that office because we didn't
57:04deem it uh reasonable
57:08maybe it was our mistake egg, but we
57:11didn't deem it reasonable to inform
57:14them. So, the ka was not aware
57:18that we were going to go to Chirz.
57:24>> Had your visits to the earlier visits
57:27prior to Cher, had they been publicized
57:29in the media?
57:35Yes, they were made public because
57:39never in my life uh
57:43had I
57:45done uh secret visits or anything like
57:49that. Everything in my life was in
57:52public.
57:56And so did you think that the KLA was
57:58aware because your visits, your prior
58:01visits had been in the media?
58:12>> I wouldn't be able to know that because
58:15I did not ask them. Maybe they were
58:19based on the media, but uh they didn't
58:23have time to deal with the media. Their
58:25main concern was the Serbian terror and
58:29uh the civilian population. So I
58:32wouldn't be able to know that
58:36court um to bring up 034236
58:41to 034287
58:45and within that in the English
58:49page 034241
58:53and in the Albanian
58:56034236
58:59at the bottom going to the top of the
59:01next page if possible. Oh,
59:40My apologies for the Albanian. Could we
59:42go to uh I believe it's bottom of
59:45034250.
1:00:14Do you recall giving um prior sworn
1:00:16testimony about this incident back in
1:00:192014?
1:00:29I cannot possibly remember dates and
1:00:32years.
1:00:35You did not allow me to bring in notes
1:00:38with me.
1:00:40If you allow me, I would like to say
1:00:44just one word about myself with the
1:00:46permission of uh the panel.
1:00:52Just for now just answer the questions
1:00:55that are asked of you
1:00:58>> sir and as as you were instructed the
1:01:01documents are up here on the screen so I
1:01:03know you don't have your own papers but
1:01:05the documents that I'm asking you to
1:01:07look at are here on the screen can you
1:01:08see them okay
1:01:19>> partly
1:01:21do you see here where You talk about the
1:01:23KLA, encountering the KLA before
1:01:25entering the village of Churz and uh the
1:01:29prosecutor asks you, you told them why
1:01:31you were going there and you said yes,
1:01:34but they also must have known because it
1:01:37had been in the media and also they
1:01:39would have found out through their own
1:01:40people. Do you recall giving that
1:01:43answer?
1:01:49If it's owner from
1:01:51>> listen I was very clear
1:01:56although
1:02:01these things are irrelevant as far as
1:02:04I'm concerned maybe they are relevant
1:02:06for you
1:02:09now whether I said they must have known
1:02:13or didn't know these things happened
1:02:17long long time ago
1:02:21And it's difficult for us to remember
1:02:26all the details because to be able to
1:02:28remember all the details we
1:02:32should have had a video camera, recorded
1:02:35all the visits and recall everything.
1:02:38Now we are talking about events that
1:02:41happened a quarter of a century ago
1:02:43during a wartime and uh disregarding
1:02:49of what we went through. So now it's
1:02:53difficult for us even to remember our
1:02:56own names.
1:03:00So my question again sir is do you
1:03:02recall giving that answer the answer
1:03:05specifically in talking about the KLA
1:03:09and being asked you were told them why
1:03:12you told them why you were going there
1:03:13question mark from the prosecutor and
1:03:16your answer was yes but they also must
1:03:19have known because it had been in the
1:03:21media and also they would have found out
1:03:23through their own people. Do you
1:03:25remember that now having having had it
1:03:27read to you?
1:03:34>> Look,
1:03:37whether they must have known
1:03:42or not,
1:03:45I can confirm even today that
1:03:49I don't know whether they knew or not.
1:03:52As I said, it was irrelevant.
1:03:57This was something that was in the
1:03:59media. We did not go there secretly. We
1:04:03didn't go to any of the visits secretly.
1:04:05Everything was in public. And that's why
1:04:07I said that they could have known from
1:04:10the media.
1:04:13>> I understand. And um witness, neither
1:04:16you nor I determine what is relevant.
1:04:18That's for the judges to decide. All
1:04:19right.
1:04:21Um, in terms of um, other humanitarian
1:04:24visits, had you encountered the KLA on
1:04:26previous visits, some of the earlier
1:04:28ones that you told us about?
1:04:34>> Paul,
1:04:35>> yes. Yes. We encountered Kle members
1:04:41during our visit
1:04:43in Malaysia municipality,
1:04:47Ban Pagarouch villages
1:04:51and they were cooperative
1:04:57and appreciated
1:05:00our sacrifice and efforts to make those
1:05:04visits.
1:05:08When you arrived in Churz, you mentioned
1:05:11going to the mosque and speaking with
1:05:13the population. Is that right?
1:05:20>> This is correct.
1:05:23>> And you've already told us that your
1:05:25purpose was to see the humanitarian
1:05:27situation there. Um, and did you how did
1:05:31you engage? Did you speak to people
1:05:33one-on-one? Did you make um remarks or a
1:05:37speech to a group? What happened?
1:05:55There were women
1:05:58who were ill, pregnant, there were
1:06:02children
1:06:03without parents.
1:06:05So we asked them about their needs so
1:06:09that upon our return to Pristina through
1:06:13the observation mission, US observation
1:06:17mission and the international red cross
1:06:20be able to help that population. That's
1:06:22why we went there to visit them to meet
1:06:25them to collect information because uh
1:06:29that information was
1:06:32of particular importance to me because
1:06:35at the time without exaggerating I was
1:06:38playing the role of the foreign minister
1:06:41having contact with international uh
1:06:44centers. So I played that role to be
1:06:47able to help Kosovo. This was the aim of
1:06:50this visit. We spoke with the local
1:06:52population in Chias as well as the
1:06:55people who had gathered there from other
1:06:58villages of Janisa area
1:07:03>> and about how long did you engage with
1:07:06the people and talk to them? Do you
1:07:07recall how long that was?
1:07:17Look uh
1:07:19however I try I wouldn't be able
1:07:24that would be far from the truth
1:07:27for several hours something like that.
1:07:32And after you met with the population,
1:07:35did there come a point where you
1:07:37interacted with the KLA? So, not just
1:07:39saw them, but actually engaged with
1:07:41them.
1:07:48>> We then went to a room.
1:07:52As I said, we were told that it was the
1:07:57information office
1:08:00of that village used by the LDK at that
1:08:04time. We didn't know what that office
1:08:08was. Then we spoke to the population
1:08:13and took note of their needs, concerns
1:08:20and about the situation.
1:08:25Before we entered that office,
1:08:30we came across Ghani Kosi whom I knew
1:08:33from before. He was an LDK official.
1:08:38Before
1:08:40that,
1:08:43he had been an LDK official in the past
1:08:47and had then joined the KA. I don't know
1:08:50what his rank was, but at the time he
1:08:54was KLA.
1:08:56Members of the delegation uh
1:09:00discussed things with Ghani,
1:09:03maybe not very pleasant discussions. Who
1:09:06are you? where are you from and so
1:09:10forth. And there were some criticism uh
1:09:14against the
1:09:17Ka
1:09:22that uh our efforts to resolve the
1:09:26situation of uh Kosovo through dialogue
1:09:30was a utopia.
1:09:33We then entered the office uh that room
1:09:38spoke to the population. If you want to
1:09:41me to continue, I will continue. If you
1:09:43want me to stop here, I will stop here.
1:09:48>> Thank you. I'll ask a follow-up
1:09:49question. You mentioned I asked you if
1:09:51you encountered the KA. You said yes.
1:09:54You mentioned an individual named Ghani
1:09:56Kotzy. Um how did you know Ghani Kotzy
1:09:59was in the KA? Oh
1:10:02>> yes,
1:10:05>> we knew that
1:10:07>> because he was dressed in KA uniform and
1:10:12we had heard that from LK.
1:10:16He passed on to KLA. He became a member
1:10:20of the KLA.
1:10:23>> Were there other members of the Ka there
1:10:25also in uniform?
1:10:32Then when we talked
1:10:35inside this room
1:10:38with the inhabitants,
1:10:43person number one entered the room
1:10:50>> with two other people or three.
1:10:55I can't be accurate.
1:10:59and he asked us, "Who are you
1:11:04>> there?" Did you see other members of the
1:11:06Ka
1:11:07um besides the people that you
1:11:10recognized just or was it only one or
1:11:12two people? Were there other members of
1:11:13the KLA also dressed in uniforms?
1:11:22>> Insurance. We didn't meet anyone else
1:11:26other members of the KLA.
1:11:31>> Well, do you recall black vehicles um
1:11:34arriving with members of the KLA and
1:11:36coming to you at the community office in
1:11:38Cherz?
1:11:45>> Uh to tell you the truth, I wasn't
1:11:48concerned with looking for vehicles. I
1:11:52was focused on listening to what the
1:11:56civilian population was telling me about
1:11:59the alarming situation of the population
1:12:04which were displaced and terrorized you
1:12:08know in Trenita
1:12:11>> if we could go to the document that's up
1:12:13on the screen now in the English at page
1:12:16uh 034242
1:12:19and in the Albanian Um 034251
1:12:26in the middle towards the bottom.
1:12:49I think for the English it's a little
1:12:50bit higher up. For the Albanian it's
1:12:52towards the bottom. Thank you. All
1:12:54right. Sir, do you recall being asked
1:12:57when you gave testimony in 2014 um in
1:13:00talking about your visit to CHZ, when
1:13:02did you next see the KA? Your answer was
1:13:05after we made speeches, black vehicles
1:13:08of the KLA arrived and they entered into
1:13:11the community office. Do you recall
1:13:13that?
1:13:24I don't recall that.
1:13:28>> Okay. Having had that read to you, does
1:13:30it refresh your memory that you saw
1:13:32black vehicles pull into the um pull
1:13:35into Cherz and come uh then people
1:13:39entered from the Ka entered the
1:13:40community office?
1:13:49to tell you the truth.
1:13:56The
1:13:58reason for this visit or the truth about
1:14:00this visit, I said that on the same day,
1:14:05two hours after my return, you have the
1:14:08recording, the video. I said that to the
1:14:11VA.
1:14:14I said that at the meeting of the
1:14:18presidency
1:14:19four or five days after that event. So
1:14:23you can have uh access to all these
1:14:26public documents.
1:14:30The other things I have said during the
1:14:33days when we buried the members of the
1:14:35family. So many things I have forgotten.
1:14:39I was distressed.
1:14:41So even a letter I sent a year ago, I in
1:14:46that letter I said uh these are close
1:14:50things for me. Maybe not for you.
1:14:54>> Black vehicles.
1:15:00>> I didn't see any black vehicles.
1:15:04I don't uh I can't distinguish between
1:15:07the colors even today.
1:15:10>> All right. And um going to the next
1:15:13question, I also just asked you about
1:15:16seeing other people in military uniforms
1:15:18and you were asked that this question.
1:15:21How did you know it was the KLA? Your
1:15:23answer was because they were in their
1:15:26uniforms. There were some in civilian
1:15:28clothes. Those in uniforms were wearing
1:15:32mostly black military uniforms and
1:15:34insignia.
1:15:36The prosecutor then asked what insignia?
1:15:39Your answer was Ucha, the acronym in
1:15:42Albanian for KLA. So do you remember now
1:15:45having had that read to you that you saw
1:15:48you saw members in uniforms including in
1:15:51black uniforms with insignia in cheras?
1:16:03Hi
1:16:06already told you we heard about Gani
1:16:10Koti that he had joined the KA.
1:16:14Person number one also was in the media
1:16:17that he was injured or not injured
1:16:20things to do with him
1:16:23and maybe there were some other people
1:16:25accompanying him
1:16:28because it was a dramatic moment.
1:16:32We may suppose that there were ka
1:16:35members but whether they had insignia
1:16:39and to be so specific I couldn't do
1:16:42that. I didn't have the chance to do
1:16:44that.
1:16:47>> And you started telling us that there
1:16:49were some insults and there were
1:16:51questions about why you were there. Um
1:16:54what were you asked about um by the KA
1:16:57in this community office? What did they
1:16:58ask you?
1:17:03>> Not the KA but person number one.
1:17:06>> He insulted us. Why are you here? What
1:17:09do you want?
1:17:11Who are you?
1:17:12Why have you come here?
1:17:16He collected our IDs
1:17:20and he ordered that the ladies members
1:17:23of the delegation,
1:17:25the drivers, the journalists
1:17:29accompanying us to go back to Pristina.
1:17:32Whereas we others
1:17:36remained
1:17:38about 13 deputies members of different
1:17:41parties that we read earlier.
1:17:46We did he didn't give us back our ideas
1:17:51telling us that we have to do some
1:17:54talking with you.
1:17:56So you have to stay on
1:17:59because we need to talk to you.
1:18:02Makina.
1:18:03>> Then the vehicles came and
1:18:08took us for the moment it was unknown
1:18:11for us where until we found out that we
1:18:15arrived in Baya.
1:18:17>> Okay. Well, I want to stay in Cherz for
1:18:18just a moment. Um, did you see Hashimi
1:18:22in Churz?
1:18:26>> Yo, Hashim. No, I never saw in my life
1:18:31Hashim
1:18:33in Christina or in Chz.
1:18:36>> I saw him in Baya 2 3 hours after what
1:18:41happened.
1:18:44If we can go to
1:18:48uh the document that's on the screen in
1:18:50the English,
1:18:52it's bottom of page 034242
1:18:56to the top of 034243.
1:19:00And in the Albanian, it's 034252.
1:19:40Do you recall being asked this question
1:19:42in 2014? At the moment when you arrived,
1:19:45did you have contact with members of the
1:19:47KLA?
1:19:48Your answer was I never had any contacts
1:19:52in my life with them before that day.
1:19:55But I knew Hashimi
1:19:57because a few months before that he gave
1:20:01an interview to a newspaper and there
1:20:03was a picture many pictures of him. They
1:20:05used to call him the snake Yab Yaspari.
1:20:09So I knew he was the one. Sabagetti was
1:20:13there too. After listening to the
1:20:15cassette player, they asked to see our
1:20:17IDs. We have them our ID. We have them
1:20:20our gave them our IDs. I believe that's
1:20:22a typo. We told them that most of us
1:20:26were members of parliament. Do you
1:20:28recall saying that?
1:20:34>> No, I don't recall that.
1:20:39probably that interview has taken place
1:20:43after these events. Maybe it was then
1:20:47that I recognized
1:20:50Hashim
1:20:51as far as chess goes. I told you that it
1:20:56was in Bay that I met Hashim for the
1:20:59first time and in Paris at the Rambuier
1:21:03conference.
1:21:05Well, are you aware that Hashimi himself
1:21:07admitted to being in Churz on the day
1:21:09that you were all detained?
1:21:17>> You can ask him.
1:21:20I will answer
1:21:23about myself and I am responsible to all
1:21:26to everything I have done to this panel
1:21:29and to everyone.
1:21:32Right.
1:21:36You also mentioned individual one.
1:21:41Uh had you seen him before?
1:21:47>> No, but I knew about him.
1:21:52>> Like we knew Gani Coli in Bay. I knew
1:21:57also Tahes from Pristina. I saw him
1:22:01there but I didn't have the privilege of
1:22:05knowing Hashid Tachin Pristina.
1:22:13All right. So getting back to the
1:22:14delegation you said that um
1:22:19what happened with the women and the
1:22:21journalists? Tell us what happened.
1:22:28>> You can phone. They were told to go back
1:22:31to Bristina and they did so. They
1:22:34ordered them to go back to Brristina.
1:22:39And for the delegates who remained um
1:22:42what were you told? Were you told that
1:22:44you were under arrest?
1:22:51>> Yeah.
1:22:51>> No,
1:22:53we were not under arrest. We were not
1:22:56arrested. We were told to stay on
1:23:02such a extended delegation like ours
1:23:06was.
1:23:08If we think about that in who which was
1:23:13going to the war zones were wearing ties
1:23:17and civilian clothes and in cars
1:23:22would have raised suspicions for every
1:23:25army in the world. let alone for the ka
1:23:28as to who these people are among these
1:23:31people. Maybe there was
1:23:35someone I'm not saying that there was
1:23:37but supposedly there might be
1:23:42suspects.
1:23:44Maybe they have come to get information
1:23:46about the ka. Maybe they serve uh
1:23:49certain services that were flourishing
1:23:52in Kosovo then like Serbs, Soviet, you
1:23:56name it. So
1:23:59they were completely in their right to
1:24:02have sus suspicions.
1:24:05That would be the case with every army
1:24:07in the world. That was the purpose of
1:24:10why they stopped us there to know who we
1:24:14were, why we were there.
1:24:17When you previously testified, did you
1:24:19describe what you were told as being
1:24:21told that you were quote under arrest?
1:24:31>> No,
1:24:34I was not under arrest. I was arrested
1:24:38often by the Serbian forces
1:24:42but never by the Ka
1:24:46with the same document on the screen in
1:24:48the English to 034244
1:24:52and in the Albanian
1:24:56I think towards the bottom of 034253.
1:25:03Right.
1:25:17In your 2014 testimony, you were asked
1:25:20the following question. What hap by the
1:25:23prosecutor, what happened exactly?
1:25:26Your answer was the KLA came in after
1:25:30they had listened to the speech on the
1:25:32tape. They said quote you are under
1:25:35arrest. Period. Do you recall giving
1:25:38that testimony?
1:25:43>> No, I don't recall that that I have said
1:25:45under arrest.
1:25:48Further on, I have
1:25:50some criticism regarding being
1:25:54questioned that I never had a lawyer. I
1:25:57never had a legal advisor. I am not a
1:25:59lawyer.
1:26:01>> Sir, in this testimony, you were advised
1:26:03at the outset of the testimony that you
1:26:05were being asked to give evidence in a
1:26:07criminal investigation. Do you remember
1:26:08that?
1:26:16Yo. No.
1:26:21Frankly speaking, I could not even think
1:26:25that a people fighting for freedom like
1:26:28the cases with Ukraine now is going to
1:26:32be penalized for that.
1:26:34>> Not my question. My question is, do you
1:26:36recall, you mentioned not having knowing
1:26:38what was going on or not having a
1:26:40lawyer? Do you recall being given an
1:26:43advisement at the beginning of your
1:26:45testimony in 2014 about why you were
1:26:48being asked to give testimony? Do you
1:26:50remember that?
1:27:01>> I don't remember that. I am not very
1:27:04sure
1:27:06>> if we can go to the first page uh bottom
1:27:08of each of these doc document of the
1:27:10document on the screen.
1:27:54Sir, do you recall microphone please?
1:27:59You can see on the screen there on the
1:28:01first page, you actually testified in
1:28:03May on two different dates. Um on the
1:28:0519th of May 2014 and then again on the
1:28:0821st of May 2014. Do you recall that?
1:28:16>> I don't recall the dates.
1:28:20twice
1:28:25>> commonly
1:28:26>> probably. Yes, it's possible.
1:28:30>> You were given the same advisement on
1:28:32both days at the beginning of your
1:28:34testimony before you were asked
1:28:35questions. Do you remember that?
1:28:43>> I don't recall that.
1:28:49Well, you see here it says you were
1:28:51warned that this was you were giving
1:28:53evidence in a criminal investigation
1:28:55that you were obligated to testify. That
1:28:58you were obligated to tell the truth.
1:29:01That if you didn't tell the truth, you
1:29:02could be prosecuted.
1:29:05That if you believed you might
1:29:06incriminate yourself as a result of
1:29:08answering a question, you may refuse to
1:29:10answer.
1:29:12and that you need not answer a
1:29:13particular question if it is likely that
1:29:16you would expose yourself for a close
1:29:17relative to disgrace, considerable
1:29:20financial loss or criminal prosecution.
1:29:24Do you remember those advisements? And
1:29:26you can read them on the screen if you
1:29:28want to. Do you recall that?
1:29:40>> I think you are doing me an injustice
1:29:48>> because you are asking me about things
1:29:51that have happened 25 years ago.
1:29:55You should remember that in front of you
1:29:59is someone who has made sacrifices, a
1:30:03lot of sacrifices
1:30:05in the Balkans, in Europe and you should
1:30:10uh regard me with consideration. The I
1:30:14can't remember every statement I've
1:30:17given. I was under uh electoral
1:30:22emotional
1:30:24uh pressure thinking what happened to
1:30:27the members of my family who were
1:30:30returned to us mutilated and that uh
1:30:34maybe when I gave this statement I was
1:30:37not myself. I was immature and I feel
1:30:41bad about that now and I publicly
1:30:45apologize
1:30:48But they are not really linked to the
1:30:51reality.
1:30:54>> What you've just told the panel, which
1:30:57is you've told us that you didn't really
1:30:59understand what was going on and that
1:31:01you were never given an attorney and you
1:31:03should have been given an attorney. Do
1:31:05you recall just giving that testimony?
1:31:09>> Oh, yes. Yes.
1:31:13I would have had a lawyer, a legal
1:31:18advisor. I should have been explained
1:31:21things because now you are talking to a
1:31:23living corpse.
1:31:25>> I
1:31:27I in fact was then and now a corpse,
1:31:32>> sir. And that's what I'm trying to go
1:31:34through. I'm I just read you the
1:31:37explanation that you were in fact given
1:31:40at the beginning of your testimony on
1:31:42both of those days. So those things were
1:31:45explained to you. Do you recall that?
1:31:53>> I don't recall them being explained to
1:31:55me. And uh it seems that uh they were
1:32:01trying to get as many incriminating
1:32:04elements against the Kle as possible.
1:32:07For what reason? I don't know.
1:32:11>> Sir, as it says, you were told that you
1:32:14were testifying in a criminal
1:32:16investigation and that you were
1:32:19obligated to tell the truth. I also you
1:32:22mentioned about having an attorney. The
1:32:24next sentence on the screen, if you can
1:32:26look at it, says, "You were advised, if
1:32:30you believe that you need the assistance
1:32:32of an attorney as a result of answering
1:32:35a question, you may hire and consult an
1:32:39attorney.
1:32:41Do you recall being given that
1:32:42advisement before you were asked any
1:32:44questions in that investigation?"
1:32:50>> I don't think I was.
1:32:54You also mentioned about what the
1:32:55purpose was. Do you recall being advised
1:32:58that this was a criminal investigation
1:33:00seeking the truth and the most accurate
1:33:04recollection of the facts that you can
1:33:07provide. If you do not understand the
1:33:10question being asked, you should request
1:33:12that the question be asked differently.
1:33:14If you believe that there is a document
1:33:16or other evidence that may help you
1:33:19answer a question more accurately or
1:33:22remember the facts more vividly, you are
1:33:25obligated to tell us.
1:33:29Do you recall being given those
1:33:30advisements before you were questioned?
1:33:40I always tell the truth
1:33:44regardless of the price.
1:33:50I do not remember
1:33:54receiving such
1:33:57advicement.
1:34:01And
1:34:06regarding the emotional family
1:34:10situation at the time,
1:34:13collecting dead bodies,
1:34:17burnt bodies,
1:34:19I was uh then
1:34:22taken in for questioning
1:34:25and uh this for me constituted violation
1:34:29of human rights.
1:34:34Do you do you recall that at the end of
1:34:36your testimony on both days, you
1:34:39actually
1:34:41swore and signed your statement at the
1:34:44end saying that you have read the
1:34:46minutes in English with the assistance
1:34:48of interpreter and that you acknowledge
1:34:50the testimony is yours and you sign the
1:34:53record without objection. Do you
1:34:54remember doing that?
1:35:03I don't remember anyone asking me about
1:35:07uh an oath, a solemn oath uh where my uh
1:35:15signature is. I will confirm that at any
1:35:20time
1:35:22will not deny it. However, let me repeat
1:35:26it once again the moment, the situation,
1:35:31the developments
1:35:33in terms of my family and me as a
1:35:37person.
1:35:4090% of the statements I gave after the
1:35:43war, I was not uh so to say normal and
1:35:48able to tell the truth. I am now ready
1:35:53to face everything
1:35:56just as I was ready in the past to
1:36:03sacrifice my life for Kosovo.
1:36:07My uh life has no other value. As I said
1:36:11today, I am a living dead. I don't know
1:36:15why I am alive.
1:36:18I am a courageous man by nature. I was
1:36:23ready and I am ready to press sacrifice
1:36:27my life for a cause. But
1:36:33never ever
1:36:36to label or blemish a Titanic and epic
1:36:41liberation
1:36:43army which is one of the cleanest armies
1:36:47in the history of world wars and that is
1:36:50the Kosovo liberation army.
1:36:54You said that you could confirm your
1:36:56signature if we could go to page two uh
1:36:5803244
1:37:00U for the May 19th portion.
1:37:04And there is uh no signature on the
1:37:06corresponding Albanian. So it's just in
1:37:09English.
1:37:13Do you see also your initials at the
1:37:15bottom of the page, sir? Did you see
1:37:17that your initials are at the bottom of
1:37:19each page?
1:37:20>> Yes.
1:37:22every single page of your testimony.
1:37:30>> Every single page I initialed and in
1:37:33every page you'll find my initials and
1:37:36signature
1:37:39>> screen there.
1:37:42That that's your signature on the screen
1:37:43there. Page uh 03 the
1:37:45>> English 4244
1:37:47>> on the English version. Yes.
1:38:12Do you recall who specifically told you
1:38:15that you were
1:38:18um under arrest or that you were
1:38:20detained under detention. Who told you
1:38:23that?
1:38:28>> We were not told that we were under
1:38:32arrest, but that we had to stay there,
1:38:36that they needed to talk to us. And this
1:38:39we were told by person number one.
1:38:44>> Well, you you it wasn't just that you
1:38:46you needed you they needed to talk to
1:38:48you. you uh when we met um on Friday,
1:38:52you indicated that you weren't sure the
1:38:55exact words um but it was either you
1:38:58weren't sure if they exactly said you're
1:39:00under arrest or under detention or we
1:39:04will ask you you questions. So when we
1:39:07spoke um at the end of last week, you
1:39:09actually weren't sure about which of
1:39:11those words were used. So it could have
1:39:13been that you were under arrest or under
1:39:15detention. Is that right?
1:39:23That's why I don't want to speculate
1:39:26to say under arrest
1:39:30I could be lying. I'm talking about the
1:39:35aim the goal of our detention.
1:39:43They wanted to know whether there were
1:39:47suspicious persons amongst us. And to
1:39:51tell you the tr truth, I thought this
1:39:53was a good solution because uh we didn't
1:39:56want to go back to Christina.
1:40:02There were patriots all over the world
1:40:06making statements who were not
1:40:08courageous enough to come and fight
1:40:11themselves in Kosovo. They were saying
1:40:13things about allegation about
1:40:16delegations about the K. There was this
1:40:18mountain of accusations.
1:40:24I'm here before a court
1:40:29just as if I'm in a primary school
1:40:33before a teacher.
1:40:38>> Well, if you mean by that that there are
1:40:39rules in the court, that is true. There
1:40:41are rules and we all have to follow them
1:40:43together. All right. Um
1:40:48>> I
1:40:50respect
1:40:51this court. It was not you who
1:40:55established this court. It was the
1:40:58politics that established it. Somebody
1:41:00above you.
1:41:04>> If we can just focus um on when you were
1:41:06all stopped, the delegation and the
1:41:08women were sent away. The KA members
1:41:11that were there, were they armed?
1:41:23the escorts. They did have weapons. I
1:41:27think they
1:41:31did. Uh I did not see the rest.
1:41:38those who had arms maybe were in state
1:41:41of readiness because there was uh
1:41:44fighting going on against Serbian
1:41:47population and they were probably
1:41:49getting ready to defend the civilian
1:41:51population.
1:41:54>> And did you have um self a cell phone
1:41:56with you or did you people in your group
1:41:58have cellular telephones with you on
1:42:00that visit?
1:42:13We had some did. I did not uh make notes
1:42:19about that. Who had who didn't
1:42:22at the time uh the
1:42:26call sign was 063
1:42:30for the phones during the fascist
1:42:34Milosvich times that is
1:42:38take away your cell phones when they
1:42:39detained you?
1:42:45>> They took the phones to check whether
1:42:49there were suspicious
1:42:52calls made or received
1:42:55just like uh today
1:42:58to collect information.
1:43:04Just like you take phones today in
1:43:07Kosovo,
1:43:09the phones at the time were not
1:43:12operational.
1:43:14We say there were no waves, which means
1:43:17there was no reception. The reception
1:43:20was very poor and you could hardly uh
1:43:24use them. You had to go up to Chichavita
1:43:26to be able to use them.
1:43:31When you were um detained by the KLA,
1:43:35told that they had more questions for
1:43:37you, um were you free to walk away?
1:43:39Could you have left?
1:43:50We were told that we had to leave to get
1:43:53into the vehicles and go to another
1:43:56village. There was no reason for us uh
1:44:00to
1:44:02leave uh because we were not worried. We
1:44:05were amongst our own army.
1:44:10>> But if you had wanted to walk away,
1:44:13could you have walked away? That's my
1:44:15question.
1:44:20I cannot say
1:44:23now
1:44:26without uh being in such situation had I
1:44:30walked away maybe I would have been
1:44:32stopped maybe I wouldn't to tell you the
1:44:34tr truth I was
1:44:37the last that wanted to leave from there
1:44:42I was the head of the delegation and I
1:44:45was at the head of all the dangers in uh
1:44:48Kosovo during 1998 1999 in Pristina. I
1:44:53was person number one who took upon
1:44:56himself all the risks uh existing in
1:45:00Bristina at the time
1:45:04with the same document go to page
1:45:0734257 in English
1:45:10and
1:45:12starting at the bottom of page 34 034273
1:45:17in Albanian. in.
1:45:39And for the English, if you can just
1:45:41move it up a little bit.
1:45:44Thank you,
1:45:47sir. Do do you does this refresh your
1:45:50memory about um your whether you could
1:45:53walk away? Um being asked the following
1:45:56questions the prosecutor asked. They
1:45:58said you were under arrest. Did they do
1:46:01anything else to affect that arrest?
1:46:04Witness. That's you. They told us to get
1:46:07out after which they put us in different
1:46:09vehicles.
1:46:10Prosecutor after they told you to get
1:46:13out did you feel detained?
1:46:16Witness? Yes. I absolutely did not
1:46:18believe that such a thing could happen
1:46:21because we had not done anything wrong.
1:46:23We had only taken the risk and risked
1:46:25our lives in order to be with the
1:46:27civilians.
1:46:29Prosecutor, did the persons who told you
1:46:31to get out have any weapons on them?
1:46:33Witness, they may have. I did not see
1:46:36any weapons on Hashimi. He was in
1:46:39civilian clothes. But the other members
1:46:41of the KLA outside were armed. Were they
1:46:44in prosecutor? Were they involved in
1:46:46putting you into the vehicles? Witness:
1:46:49Yes, there were 13 people and they had
1:46:52put us into different cars. Prosecutor,
1:46:54what prevented you or any other member
1:46:57of your delegation from walking away
1:46:59from this? Witness, I did not dare
1:47:02because the KLA were outside surrounding
1:47:04us with vehicles.
1:47:07Prosecutor, were you detained? Witness?
1:47:09Yes. They took away our cell phones and
1:47:11they took us to the school building.
1:47:14Does that refresh your memory about
1:47:16whether or not you could have walked
1:47:17away and why you couldn't have walked
1:47:19away because the KLA was surrounding you
1:47:23and they were armed?
1:47:32>> There was no reason for us to leave.
1:47:41And I absolutely deny
1:47:45the word arrest because whenever I would
1:47:49be arrested by the Serbian police,
1:47:53they would handcuff me and take me to
1:47:56the police station. That would be an
1:47:58arrest. Now, if somebody stops you to
1:48:02have a conversation with you, that
1:48:04cannot be called an arrest or detention.
1:48:10I'm categorical
1:48:12in this respect.
1:48:16After I had buried 12 victims, members
1:48:19of my family,
1:48:22I had no time to go back in time. uh to
1:48:29think about things. Uh
1:48:33and uh
1:48:35maybe at that time I wanted to strike uh
1:48:40Hashim because we were political rivals
1:48:44in political campaigns but I did not see
1:48:47him. I'm not uh the lawyer of our
1:48:51honorable president Mr. AI but I have
1:48:56the obligation to tell the truth here. I
1:48:59did not see Hashimachi in Chz and
1:49:03whenever you ask me of this you will
1:49:06receive the same answer answer even if
1:49:09you execute me here.
1:49:14>> I understand that that wasn't my
1:49:16question. I didn't have a question about
1:49:17Mr. Thachi at that point. I was asking
1:49:19you about whether or not you were
1:49:22detained. Sir, we can't speak over each
1:49:24other. So, I was asking you about
1:49:27whether or not you were detained and
1:49:28whether you could walk away.
1:49:30>> And you said that you you never would
1:49:32have walked away, but in your earlier
1:49:33testimony, you said you did not believe
1:49:35such a thing could happen because you
1:49:38didn't do anything wrong. Do you recall
1:49:39saying that,
1:49:46>> Paul?
1:49:47>> Yes.
1:49:49I did not believe that they had
1:49:53suspicions
1:49:56regarding us
1:50:02because uh suspicion is the only way to
1:50:06come to the truth. They were right to
1:50:08have suspicions to come to the truth and
1:50:11after two days they came to the truth
1:50:13that there was nothing wrong with the
1:50:15delegation. So I didn't even think or
1:50:18try to flee. That was not in my mind.
1:50:22Never in my mind have I fled something.
1:50:24I don't know what fleeing is. When I was
1:50:28in danger, when I was surrounded by the
1:50:31Serbian police in demonstrations, in
1:50:33war, never in my life because what we
1:50:36did we did out of our own free will.
1:50:40There was no reason to go away. and also
1:50:44in my capacity as a head of delegation.
1:50:49So
1:50:51>> and put into vehicles and driven to this
1:50:53other location. Um why didn't you just
1:50:56get back in the vehicles that you had
1:50:58driven yourselves? Why were you put into
1:51:01vehicles by the KLA?
1:51:06because our cars
1:51:09were used to take the distinguished
1:51:12ladies and the journalists back
1:51:16to pristine because they couldn't walk
1:51:18from here to pristine.
1:51:23So the ka members put us into their own
1:51:27cars and took us to Bates.
1:51:32When you were taken to byes, who was in
1:51:35the vehicle with you?
1:51:38>> Uh,
1:51:41I remember that the driver was Sullean
1:51:45Salimi.
1:51:48There was someone else with me. I'm not
1:51:51very certain who the person was, believe
1:51:54me.
1:51:57And it if I'm not certain about
1:52:00something, it might be unjust to mention
1:52:03someone by name. It's better to assume
1:52:07all responsibility myself rather than
1:52:10having my words causing damage to
1:52:13someone else by mentioning names I'm not
1:52:15sure about.
1:52:17>> I understand that you're not sure now.
1:52:19Do you recall testifying 10 or nine
1:52:21years ago in 2014 that you were in the
1:52:24car with Rebel?
1:52:31>> Maybe it was him.
1:52:36>> Not because he's here now
1:52:43because you might think I am subjective
1:52:45in my statement. But the person who was
1:52:49in the car with me and I'm not sure it
1:52:52was Rajimi,
1:52:54he behaved towards me like I was his
1:52:58parent. I'm telling you a detail I never
1:53:01revealed before. I was very thirsty like
1:53:05now I don't have any coffee or and maybe
1:53:10we all should have some coffee without
1:53:13wanting to interfere in your rules and I
1:53:15apologize if I am doing so.
1:53:19I
1:53:21in front of a house
1:53:24I saw someone selling some drinks and I
1:53:27kindly asked the person with me to go
1:53:30out and buy this ring for me which he
1:53:33did.
1:53:35I didn't have any issue with the driver
1:53:37or with the person next to me. But I
1:53:40didn't know Jeff Salimi. I had never
1:53:43seen him. So I'm not sure it was him.
1:53:47Well, you said the person who you rode
1:53:49with um was nice to you. Do you recall
1:53:52whether or not you spoke with that
1:53:55person?
1:53:56>> Do you recall whether or not you spoke
1:53:57with that person who you previously
1:53:59identified as Rebeli about why you were
1:54:01under arrest?
1:54:02>> Coupers
1:54:08not interpret but there's a record of
1:54:11the proceedings and they can't get it
1:54:13down if we speak over each other. All
1:54:14right.
1:54:16Sorry.
1:54:19>> So, do you recall
1:54:22um having had a conversation in the in
1:54:25the vehicle on your way to Bitza with
1:54:28the person that you've previously
1:54:30identified as Reep Selimi?
1:54:34>> Oh, can we visit?
1:54:36>> Yes, we discuss as far as I remember
1:54:40about my work where I teach as a
1:54:43professor. what subject I teach,
1:54:46things like that,
1:54:49like two brothers might discuss with one
1:54:52another.
1:54:55Do you recall asking that person um why
1:54:59you were being detained, why you're you
1:55:01were under arrest and letting them know
1:55:03that you were the deputy speaker of the
1:55:05parliament, the president of the Liberal
1:55:07Party and affiliated with the Liberals
1:55:09of Brussels, and asking that person
1:55:20They knew
1:55:22because the Liberal Party
1:55:25was the next
1:55:27party after the K LDK. We were very well
1:55:31known in the political scene of Kosovo.
1:55:34I personally
1:55:38was known. The others might not be as
1:55:41known as I was. I was a public persona.
1:55:44So the talk was quite normal.
1:55:49Ordinary talk between two people, two
1:55:51friends, two brothers.
1:55:56Well, do you recall previously
1:55:57describing this conversation not as
1:56:00brothers, but being told after you asked
1:56:03why you were under arrest, being told
1:56:04that you have no right to ask any
1:56:08questions because you're under arrest?
1:56:10Do you recall?
1:56:15>> No, I don't think I don't believe that.
1:56:17I don't remember that.
1:56:20Can we go um in the document to 034258
1:56:25in English and 034274
1:56:30in the Albanian please?
1:56:57The prosecutor says, "Go on. You spoke
1:57:00to the person next to you and you
1:57:02answered,
1:57:03I asked Salemi who he was and he
1:57:07answered, Guri." I asked him where we
1:57:10were, which village this is. He answered
1:57:13that I have no right to ask because I am
1:57:16under arrest. I said I, Deputy Speaker
1:57:20of Parliament, president of the Liberal
1:57:22Party and affiliated with the Liberals
1:57:25in Brussels. He said yes.
1:57:28Do you recall that?
1:57:34>> No, I don't recall that. 25 years have
1:57:38passed by
1:57:40and you are asking me if you asked me
1:57:43about the recent things things I did two
1:57:45three days ago I wouldn't be able to say
1:57:56you uh indicated that you were being
1:57:58taken to Bita where specifically did you
1:58:01go when you arrived in Bita
1:58:05>> and then you scroll Filora
1:58:08>> Elementary School Miji was its name in
1:58:12Bates village.
1:58:18>> And was that all of the delegates that
1:58:20had been in Churz? Did you all arrive at
1:58:22the schoolhouse in Bita?
1:58:27>> Just Bashka?
1:58:28>> Yes, all of us. Initially they took us
1:58:32to a whole like corridor. Before
1:58:36going to the classroom,
1:58:38>> there were some chairs there. We sat
1:58:41there all of us.
1:58:46>> Did Reep Salimi um was he there?
1:58:52>> Yes, he was there.
1:58:57>> Uh was he did he have your anything to
1:59:00do with your ID cards? You mentioned
1:59:02earlier that your ID cards were taken.
1:59:04Did he have anything to do with your ID
1:59:05cards?
1:59:07>> Yes.
1:59:10>> No.
1:59:12>> Person number one collected our IDs and
1:59:16I didn't meet Raj Selimi in chess at
1:59:19all. Then Rajep Selimi returned very
1:59:25politely all our ideas call addressing
1:59:28us as professors, intellectuals.
1:59:31He apologized
1:59:33and gave back our IDs to us.
1:59:39>> Well, prior to giving back your IDs, did
1:59:42he ask you questions after addressing
1:59:45you as professors and um intellectuals?
1:59:50Did he ask you anything?
1:59:53>> When he gave them back to us the ideas,
1:59:56he said all source.
1:59:59Then there was no conversation other
2:00:01than that.
2:00:03It was late afternoon
2:00:16and the prosecutor, we can take the
2:00:18morning break at this time if if it's a
2:00:20convenient spot.
2:00:22>> Happy to stop whenever your honors are
2:00:24ready.
2:00:24>> Okay, we will. Witness,
2:00:27we'll have a morning break for a half an
2:00:29hour to give you a little time to rest.
2:00:31Thank you. Please, you may be
2:00:34accompanied by the court officer.
2:00:56We are adjourned until 11:30.
2:00:59Otherwise,
2:01:52All right.
2:02:07Be seated.
2:02:17>> Madam court officer, you can bring the
2:02:18witness into the courtroom.
2:03:32witness. We will continue with the
2:03:34direct examination by the prosecution.
2:03:36Madame prosecutor, you have the floor.
2:03:40>> Thank you, your honor.
2:03:46Picking up where we left off before the
2:03:48break, we were talking about
2:03:51Reepsimi and your identification cards.
2:03:55Do you recall previously describing
2:03:59Reep Selimini sitting in the front of a
2:04:01classroom and talking with you, the
2:04:04members of the delegation, about why you
2:04:07were there while he was looking at your
2:04:09ID cards? Do you recall that?
2:04:18He was sitting on the chair. We were
2:04:22sitting as well.
2:04:24He looked at
2:04:28the ID cards
2:04:36and gave them back to us.
2:04:40>> He said, that some of us were
2:04:43professors, others had various
2:04:45professions,
2:04:48all intellectuals. He said, "We're
2:04:49sorry. We have to go through this." He
2:04:52returned our ideas and left.
2:04:55We were left there sitting on those
2:04:58chairs.
2:05:02>> So your testimony now is that he
2:05:04apologized to you. Is that your
2:05:06testimony?
2:05:09Look, this is how it was because
2:05:16he was right to apologize.
2:05:19Indeed, I wouldn't see every
2:05:24person number one took our ID since was
2:05:27him.
2:05:30if we could pull up um on the same
2:05:32document that's on the screen going to
2:05:34page 034258
2:05:38the bottom of that page in the English
2:05:42and uh in the middle of the page on
2:05:45034275
2:05:47in Albanian
2:06:00Do you recall testifying in 2014? The
2:06:03prosecutor asked, "When you were in the
2:06:05school, who did you recognize there?"
2:06:08Your answer was, "They put us in a into
2:06:11a classroom with chairs." Reepsimi sat
2:06:15at the place where usually the teacher
2:06:18sits with our ID cards. He said, "How
2:06:21come you guys, you are all professors,
2:06:24intellectuals, how did you come here?" I
2:06:28told him, "We had come there as members
2:06:30of a humanitarian mission, and by doing
2:06:33so, we had endangered our lives, but we
2:06:36thought our lives would be endangered by
2:06:38the Serbs, not the KLA."
2:06:42And at the top of the next page in the
2:06:44English prosecutor,
2:06:47where were the other members of the ka
2:06:49you mentioned when Selimi was saying
2:06:50this? Your answer, they may have been
2:06:53upstairs. They had their own offices. In
2:06:56a given moment, a group entered the
2:06:59classroom. Do you recall now um that
2:07:02Reep Selei
2:07:05asked you what you were doing there and
2:07:07there's no mention of an apology.
2:07:10Do you recall giving that testimony
2:07:12under oath?
2:09:29back. Did um KLA soldiers then approach
2:09:33your delegation
2:09:38>> Rajep
2:09:40after this Rajep left? I wouldn't know
2:09:44exactly how many minutes after this
2:09:47because I didn't check my watch.
2:09:52After which a group of young men came
2:09:57in.
2:10:00Now
2:10:04the way I perceived them, they were
2:10:07wearing masks.
2:10:09They didn't
2:10:11bear any ka insignia. They entered that
2:10:16lobby.
2:10:18A verbal altercation ensued, exchanges,
2:10:23debates, various insults against us,
2:10:26directed to us.
2:10:28I don't know what information they had
2:10:31as to who we were and why we're there.
2:10:35So, this whole thing
2:10:37lasted a minute or half a minute or a
2:10:41minute and a half. I wouldn't want to
2:10:42speculate. I wouldn't know for sure.
2:10:45>> Well, before we get to what happened,
2:10:48you said um that they were wearing
2:10:50masks, do you recall previously
2:10:52describing that they were also wearing
2:10:54um most of them were wearing uniforms as
2:10:58well as masks? Do you recall um
2:11:00testifying to that in 2014?
2:11:03>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, they were not
2:11:07wearing uniforms.
2:11:09Look, maybe some of them had a jacket or
2:11:14combined with jeans or something. They
2:11:17were not an army in like a regular army
2:11:20with uniforms and Kelly insignia.
2:11:24I don't know how to qualify them because
2:11:27I'm not the right person to do this. I
2:11:30didn't have enough knowledge.
2:11:33We people in Pristina
2:11:36were not really familiar with the KLA
2:11:40because we were leaving living normal
2:11:42lives in Pristina. We were we were going
2:11:45in restaurants and cafes and as if there
2:11:48was no war at all.
2:11:51>> Pull up um in the English 034259
2:11:55and in the Albanian
2:11:57uh bottom of 034275.
2:12:08Oh, on the English just a little bit
2:12:10higher. Sorry. In the Albanian it's
2:12:11towards the bottom.
2:12:17Um
2:12:20well to refresh your memory, do you
2:12:22recall saying that tell us about that
2:12:24group? The prosecutor asks and your
2:12:26answer is the group belonged to the KLA.
2:12:28Most of them were wearing uniforms as
2:12:30well as masks and they said to the first
2:12:33person who seated there. They called
2:12:35them by name. They began maltreating
2:12:37that person. They began beating him up
2:12:39with a wooden stick. Do you remember um
2:12:42giving that testimony where you
2:12:43described them as wearing uniforms as
2:12:46well as masks?
2:12:54>> No.
2:12:55I don't think I said with uniforms
2:13:00this was a group of young men as
2:13:05ill informed
2:13:09and incited by I don't know what
2:13:13and I did not see any Kle insignia on
2:13:16any of them.
2:13:19Your testimony today is you didn't see
2:13:21any uniforms or KLA insignia.
2:13:29>> That's right.
2:13:33>> Do you recall approximately how many of
2:13:35them were in the group?
2:13:42>> You're asking very tough questions, but
2:13:45I need to I have to ask and this is why
2:13:47I'm here.
2:13:49They were probably four, five, six
2:13:52around this number. It was not a large
2:13:54group.
2:13:58And what did this group of four to six
2:14:01approximately individuals do?
2:14:10>> Should
2:14:12look
2:14:18I've lived the last 25 years and from
2:14:22that event as a snake under a stone,
2:14:25denigrated, insulted, humiliated because
2:14:28of the opinion of what happened on that
2:14:32day because specific anti-ali circles
2:14:36exaggerated the events with the
2:14:39assistance of Serbian forces, the
2:14:41Serbian secret
2:14:47I am I witness this meaning that they
2:14:53tried by all possible means to denigrate
2:14:55and insult the KA.
2:14:58I was insulted in the media. I ran for
2:15:03MBA and I was only once elected in
2:15:09>> stick with my question which is what did
2:15:12these four to six KLA members do?
2:15:22>> They did nothing nothing extraordinary
2:15:26nothing that would justify my presence
2:15:29here today.
2:15:31As a matter of fact, I wouldn't I should
2:15:34not be here today with in relation to
2:15:39the Chz event, but I should be on the
2:15:41side of my co-fighters that are sitting
2:15:44here as accused.
2:15:46I am a European person in mind and I
2:15:49respect you very much. However,
2:15:52exaggerating this event and make it a
2:15:56central topic for a very important court
2:16:00with international credibility is
2:16:02exaggerated.
2:16:04This was cooked up by Serbian services,
2:16:10secret services, different circles. So
2:16:13there was a heated exchange there. We
2:16:17had debates
2:16:20like things that happened in states,
2:16:22parliaments and and this was what
2:16:25happened. That's it.
2:16:27>> Okay. Well, let's not go with Serbian
2:16:29intelligence services their words. Let's
2:16:31use your words. Do you recall being
2:16:34asked in 2014 at page 034268
2:16:39in English and in Albanian at 03
2:16:454285.
2:16:47So 268 in the English 285 in the
2:16:49Albanian.
2:16:53Who did the beatings?
2:16:56And your answer was it was a group.
2:16:58There were four or five men. your words,
2:17:02they beat us together. The beating was
2:17:06seen by all members of the group. That's
2:17:09the delegation, right? Not Serbians. Is
2:17:13that right,
2:17:19>> the Serbs are the ones who built up this
2:17:23case. The Serbs are the reason for my
2:17:25presence here. The Serbs those who
2:17:28terrorize and kill people in Kosovo.
2:17:30Serbs are those who do not leave Kosovo
2:17:33alone today. And and s are the reason
2:17:36why these people shouldn't be here in
2:17:38this courtroom.
2:17:40You have not given any answer to the
2:17:44massacre in Matcha of over 400 Albanians
2:17:47and many other massacres. And it's
2:17:50because of the serves that I'm here
2:17:51today.
2:17:53You should only summon me here only in
2:17:56relation to the Serbs. I don't have any
2:17:59excuse problems with the KA and I've
2:18:02never had any problems with them.
2:18:05>> My question, sir, is
2:18:08did these four to six KLA members beat
2:18:12you and other members of the delegation?
2:18:16Uh,
2:18:19>> I am not sure they were KLA members.
2:18:22They might have been, but I'm not
2:18:24certain because as long as I did not see
2:18:29KLA insignia and they were not carrying
2:18:32wearing uniforms and they were not
2:18:34carrying weapons, I cannot say they were
2:18:37KLA. This would be speculation and I'm
2:18:40not here to speculate
2:18:42again
2:18:44at I am ready to confront and be
2:18:48confronted and say the truth at any
2:18:49cost. I have never considered the cost
2:18:52of things I would be doing. I'm ready
2:18:55for that. However, when you talk about
2:18:58beating,
2:19:00I've heard in the media saying, "Oh, we
2:19:02were hit by iron rods,
2:19:05um, axe handles, wooden sticks." This is
2:19:10absolutely untrue because to tell the
2:19:14truth and maybe I'm exaggerating a
2:19:15little bit. I personally don't believe
2:19:19that there is an Albanian person in
2:19:21Kosovo who would raise their hands
2:19:23against me as they wouldn't do it
2:19:26against uh Antoneta or the statue of
2:19:30Mother Theresa or the Scanderbeck
2:19:33statue. I don't want to compare myself
2:19:35to them, but I'm not a person that would
2:19:38justify somebody using violence against
2:19:40me. I was there to calm people down. The
2:19:45whole purpose of this visit was to bring
2:19:47the ka closer to us and I was acting as
2:19:50an intermediary. And now for you to
2:19:53mention me beatings, it would be better
2:19:56to kill me because I'm not a man that
2:19:59gets beaten up. It it would be better to
2:20:04send me behind bars for 50 years or jail
2:20:07me for life or than beat me because I'm
2:20:11not a man that somebody can beat up.
2:20:16>> Beaten up. And you answered, this is at
2:20:18page 259 in the English and the middle
2:20:21of two uh 76 in the Albanian.
2:20:28You were asked who was beaten up and
2:20:29your answer was myself, George Deadey,
2:20:33Agim Kresnichi, Medi Barty, Ysef Telu,
2:20:37so-called Black Eye, and Curtesh Devaya.
2:20:40I am absolutely certain of this. When I
2:20:44came back, I had a picture taken. Do you
2:20:47recall giving that testimony in 2014
2:20:50under oath?
2:20:55>> I have never taken an oath.
2:20:59And as I mentioned, if
2:21:02we use the word beating to describe the
2:21:05process of pushing insults or it was an
2:21:09altercation, I wouldn't know how to
2:21:11exactly qualify this because I'm not a
2:21:14lawyer.
2:21:15I would have loved to have your
2:21:18profession, but unfortunately I'm not a
2:21:20lawyer
2:21:23>> there.
2:21:24Okay, then.
2:21:28Perhaps you want me to say what you
2:21:31would like me to say.
2:21:34>> Your only duty here before the court is
2:21:36to tell the truth, sir, as the judge
2:21:38advised you at the beginning and as you
2:21:40swore an oath here today to do. That's
2:21:42the only thing any of the parties here
2:21:43would like. All right.
2:21:46You mentioned uh something in the media
2:21:48about wooden or iron sticks. Do you
2:21:51recall that you yourself described that
2:21:53this beating that was done by in your
2:21:56words a
2:21:57>> us never never
2:22:01>> let me finish my question
2:22:04if we can go to page 034259
2:22:08in English and 034275
2:22:11I think we're actually on those pages
2:22:13maybe
2:22:15um
2:22:17giving this description
2:22:19when you were um asked about who had
2:22:22beaten your group. Your answer was
2:22:26the group belonged to the KLA. Most of
2:22:29them were wearing uniforms as well as
2:22:32masks. We just looked at that a moment
2:22:33ago. And at the end of that
2:22:36answer, you say they began beating him
2:22:39up with a wooden stick. That's those are
2:22:41your words, not the media. Is that
2:22:43right, sir?
2:22:49I don't understand you. First you
2:22:52mentioned iron stick, now wooden stick,
2:22:55which is true.
2:22:56>> I'm actually um if my question wasn't
2:22:58clear, I apologize. I'll rephrase it.
2:23:01You a moment ago in your testimony said
2:23:04to the court that there was incorrect
2:23:07information and I believe you used the
2:23:10word iron stick. So I'm asking you
2:23:15>> maybe
2:23:15>> your testimony.
2:23:17>> I said it was the media anti- ka and
2:23:22anti- kosovo circles that said that.
2:23:26>> And so you mentioned this media, this
2:23:28information in the media about what was
2:23:30used. So, I wanted to go to your words
2:23:33and ask you if you recall saying that
2:23:38the beating included that they began
2:23:41beating him up with a wooden stick. So,
2:23:43that's not in the media. That's your
2:23:46description. Do you agree with that?
2:23:54I strongly
2:23:56disagree and allow me to protest to keep
2:24:00my human and family dignity.
2:24:05I am at a rather old age.
2:24:10I have very painful memories which you
2:24:15may never believe.
2:24:18But now that you mention me this
2:24:21beating, you are destroying again my
2:24:24life
2:24:26and endangering even my physical life.
2:24:32Question asked
2:24:35and you're not doing that. Please reask
2:24:38the question.
2:24:40I can I can move on to another question,
2:24:42your honor.
2:24:44You also said when you were describing
2:24:47the beating in your words you were asked
2:24:49and this is on page 259 in English 275
2:24:55in Albanian I believe it's just below
2:24:58the answers we were looking at
2:25:01prosecutor when they say when you say
2:25:03they beat you up was this with wooden
2:25:05sticks or with fists or feet? So asking
2:25:09which of those and you answered they
2:25:12used in the door.
2:25:14>> Okay.
2:25:15>> Just
2:25:17before you answer,
2:25:21>> your answer was they used fists as well,
2:25:25but also wooden sticks.
2:25:29Do you recall giving that testimony?
2:25:37>> If I said wooden stick, I have
2:25:39exaggerated. It was not true.
2:25:43And I already said but you are not
2:25:46allowing me to explain
2:25:48and the answers are incomplete and maybe
2:25:51misunderstood.
2:25:53I gave these statements in a very
2:25:56difficult state of mind and often I have
2:26:00gone too far have exaggerated without
2:26:04knowing that they would become the
2:26:06subject of our uh conversation. just
2:26:09that I never thought that there would be
2:26:12a court against Kosovo.
2:26:17>> I understand and I think the court has
2:26:19heard your explanation.
2:26:23You said just now that you had never
2:26:26been beaten before this incident. Is
2:26:28that right?
2:26:36Are you speaking about this incident
2:26:40whether I was ever
2:30:26speculate
2:30:43because it would be dishonest. This is
2:30:46the truth.
2:30:48They didn't use iron bars or wooden
2:30:50sticks.
2:30:53call meeting with myself and my
2:30:54colleague at the end of last week and
2:30:57confirming that your understanding of
2:30:59the individuals who beat you, even
2:31:01though they weren't wearing insignia,
2:31:03were actually part of the KLA. Do you
2:31:05recall that doing that just three days
2:31:07ago?
2:31:12>> They might have been KLA members. I
2:31:16didn't said say they weren't, but they
2:31:19may not have been KLA, but for them to
2:31:23be KLA.
2:31:25They should have had those insignia or
2:31:29emblems, they didn't have anything.
2:31:34>> If I could just ask uh council to to
2:31:37give citations to the prep note when she
2:31:38puts things to the witness about what
2:31:40was said in those communications with
2:31:42the witness. Thank you.
2:31:44Do you want one for the previous?
2:31:47>> Yes, please.
2:31:50>> So, it's a er
2:31:54please.
2:31:57>> The uh prep note full ERN is
2:32:0111
2:32:036 768 through 116787.
2:32:08And the specific section
2:32:12is uh starting
2:32:15uh on page six which is 116773
2:32:19through uh 116774
2:32:23and continuing on to 116775.
2:32:26It's in multiple paragraphs. It starts
2:32:28at paragraph 20 where there's a
2:32:30discussion of not seeing um uh insignia
2:32:34on them but that it made sense that the
2:32:36ka stopped them. any army would have
2:32:38done this. Um, and then going on to the
2:32:42top of page one, uh, 116775, paragraph
2:32:4627,
2:32:48uh,
2:32:50with specifically referencing the other
2:32:52individual. Why do you have to do this?
2:32:54Uh, you have a problem with us. We are
2:32:56brothers. We are your parents, not
2:32:58Serbians.
2:33:01>> Mr. Mr. I think the the way it was
2:33:03phrased to the witness was that he had
2:33:05said that it was the KLA and while
2:33:08council may be inferring things from
2:33:10various things that he said I I I don't
2:33:13think it's actually said in the note
2:33:14that he said that
2:33:15>> I think in paragraph 20 where and again
2:33:17I'm sorry I should be addressing the
2:33:18court in paragraph 20 where it says some
2:33:21of the delegates were slapped some were
2:33:23pushed because the KA was suspicious of
2:33:26the delegation
2:33:28while witness did not see any KA
2:33:31insignia on the massman. That's
2:33:32modifying but making clear that while it
2:33:35his understanding was that it was the ka
2:33:37although he did not see the insignia on
2:33:39him and this was read back to the
2:33:40witness verbatim.
2:33:42>> Understood.
2:33:44Go on.
2:33:46>> All right. Um
2:33:48going back to this physical altercation
2:33:51as you now describe it. Um
2:33:55were all of the members of the
2:33:57delegation involved in this physical
2:33:59altercation? what you've previously
2:34:02described as beating or was only some of
2:34:04them involved?
2:34:07>> Your
2:34:08>> No, not everyone.
2:34:13>> I would not have been involved had I not
2:34:16stood up to calm people down both sides
2:34:22>> about that
2:34:24from my chair.
2:34:26>> Tell us about that. What happened when
2:34:28you saw
2:34:30>> I was sitting on a chair. I saw them
2:34:33like pushing, altercating and insulting
2:34:38each other and then it was getting dark.
2:34:42My brain wasn't functioning properly at
2:34:45that moment.
2:34:48It was an incredible scene.
2:34:52And at one point I stood up without
2:34:56anyone asking me to do that because I
2:35:00was the head of the delegation and
2:35:04whatever might eventually happen. I
2:35:07wanted it to happen to me but not to my
2:35:09colleagues. So I stood up and started to
2:35:14ask them to stop. We are your parents.
2:35:17We are your people. And that was it.
2:35:22I addressed one of them saying, "Aren't
2:35:25you ashamed of what you're doing? We are
2:35:27your brothers. We are your parents." And
2:35:30then after minute everything uh ended
2:35:33and they disappeared.
2:35:37>> So how long did the beating or the
2:35:39physical altercation last?
2:35:46>> How long? Whoever says that it lost its
2:35:49source for this time is lying because we
2:35:54didn't measure the time. It was very
2:35:57something that happened very quickly.
2:36:00>> Didn't hear my question. I said how long
2:36:03did not not I didn't give you a time.
2:36:04I'm asking
2:36:06>> what understand.
2:36:08>> Oh yeah. I'm I'm sorry.
2:36:12>> It's no problem. Just I'm asking you how
2:36:14long it lasted. So no one has affixed a
2:36:16time. I'm asking you that question
2:36:21>> about a minute. It was very brief
2:36:25but don't say that I said one minute and
2:36:28it was one and a half minute maybe less.
2:36:31It was a lightning thing very quick.
2:36:36>> Please pause for five seconds after the
2:36:40question is completed for the
2:36:41translators to catch up with you. You
2:36:44you are
2:36:46jumping in too quickly and it's causing
2:36:48a problem with the transcript. Go ahead.
2:36:53>> Okay.
2:36:55>> Okay. Thank you.
2:37:00>> Did this physical altercation as you now
2:37:02describe it um did this happen with the
2:37:05delegates individually or as a group?
2:37:12>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:37:15>> No, no, it's some of us.
2:37:20>> Let me try to clarify and ask a better
2:37:22question. When you say some of us, was
2:37:24this as a group or was it one by one?
2:37:27Were people called individually by name?
2:37:33>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a group.
2:37:34>> No, no, as a group.
2:37:38It was spontaneous. People got up and
2:37:43some said didn't get up at all.
2:37:48>> I might have continued to sit but I got
2:37:52up to calm the situation.
2:38:01If we can go to page
2:38:05259
2:38:06um in the English. Oh, I think we're
2:38:08there.
2:38:10and
2:38:11275 at the bottom in the Albanian.
2:38:24We've looked at this answer a couple of
2:38:25times. I want to focus on the middle
2:38:27part where you say
2:38:32the group belonged to the KLA and then
2:38:34you say in the middle of that answer
2:38:37they said to the first person who was
2:38:39seated there they called them by name
2:38:45and then later if we can go to page 269
2:38:50in the English
2:38:52and 286 in the Albanian in
2:39:04you were asked. Oh, we're not there yet.
2:39:06I'll give it a moment.
2:39:20The prosecutor asks what when were you
2:39:23where were you in the order of the
2:39:24beatings and you say I do not remember
2:39:28the context of that suggesting that it's
2:39:31not together it's individual and then
2:39:33the next question is how long did each
2:39:35individual beating
2:39:38>> let me finish my question sir each
2:39:41individual beating Take your answer
2:39:45two or three minutes until the person
2:39:48being beaten would fall down to the
2:39:51floor. I was beaten by several persons.
2:39:55Apart from receiving the blow on my arm,
2:39:58I was punched on my body. What I have
2:40:01said, I would say anywhere.
2:40:05Now, having been shown and read those
2:40:08previous answers, does that
2:40:12refresh your recollection that these
2:40:13beatings took place individually and not
2:40:16as part of a altercation as a group in
2:40:18the hallway?
2:40:23It was only
2:40:27pushing each other
2:40:30altercation
2:40:32as to uh other states
2:40:37emotional state I don't know if you
2:40:40understand
2:40:42the emotional state of a cost of we have
2:40:46our own specificity which makes us
2:40:48different from Europeans
2:40:53unfortunate who would like to be
2:40:55involved to take revenge.
2:40:59We have a cannon. Maybe you have heard
2:41:01about that
2:41:03if you allow me to go on.
2:41:07>> I only have a limited amount of time.
2:41:10So, if you can just focus on my question
2:41:13and answer that question.
2:41:16My my I think you've answered the
2:41:18previous one. So, I'm going to move on
2:41:19to the next question. Um, did
2:41:23were where were the delegates um when
2:41:26people were being beaten? Could you see
2:41:28each other? Could other people see what
2:41:30was going on? Could you see the other
2:41:32people? Um, or were you separated?
2:41:35>> Yes. Nando.
2:41:37>> No, they didn't separate us. And I would
2:41:40kindly ask you not to use the word
2:41:44beating.
2:41:51I understand sir I'm using your word
2:41:53from previous answers that you used
2:41:56repeatedly so I'm going to stick with
2:41:58that and if I have a question that
2:42:01differs you can certainly it's your
2:42:02testimony here so you should use the
2:42:04words you think are appropriate
2:42:07>> you contra
2:42:08>> I already told you the reasons why
2:42:13>> understand and I've heard them in the
2:42:14courts for them multiple times and I
2:42:16appreciate the the explanation.
2:42:18Can you describe
2:42:21um what happened to you? The physical
2:42:24altercation as you've said here today.
2:42:26Can you describe the nature of what
2:42:29happened to you?
2:42:34>> We were all together. We were not
2:42:36separated.
2:42:39And I said I was sitting
2:42:42when the I saw what was happening which
2:42:46was unnecessary and innocent. I got up
2:42:49and tried to calm people down. Maybe in
2:42:53the course of that I might have received
2:42:56a blow like in football when you play
2:42:59but it's got nothing to do with what
2:43:03happened.
2:43:05It's nothing for to me
2:43:10but as I said
2:43:13you are talking with someone who
2:43:18uh is very special unique an
2:43:21extraordinary person regarding the
2:43:24suffering and what he has done for the
2:43:27freedom of Kosova.
2:43:30Sometimes if you might ask me what my
2:43:32name is and I wouldn't be able to answer
2:43:34you.
2:43:36>> Um if we can go to page 259 in the
2:43:40English and two top of 276 in the
2:43:44Albanian
2:43:54when you were asked about if you'd see
2:43:56Oh, I'm sorry. I'll wait till this is up
2:43:57on the screen.
2:44:02when you were asked
2:44:06about whether you'd seen the individuals
2:44:09who um were beating you uh if you'd seen
2:44:13them earlier in the day. You answered,
2:44:17"They may have been the ones who stopped
2:44:19us, but I cannot tell you who they are
2:44:21because they were wearing masks. They
2:44:23began beating us up. I don't remember
2:44:25which order they called us in, but they
2:44:28beat up six of us violently. Do you
2:44:31recall giving that description as to the
2:44:34nature of the beating that they gave
2:44:40zona? Madame prosecutor,
2:44:47I've been raised and
2:44:50with the in the family patriarchal
2:44:54European spirit which
2:44:58is that if even insulting someone is a
2:45:01tragedy
2:45:04and I would make it a huge personal
2:45:07matter if somebody even pushed me
2:45:09because I've never pushed someone or
2:45:11somebody has never pushed them. So when
2:45:14I gave these statements, I exaggerated
2:45:16things and I admit to it publicly.
2:45:21However,
2:45:22there were no violent beatings.
2:45:28This is this can be proved by the video
2:45:31conference which took place two hours
2:45:34after our after be after release. And
2:45:37you can see that there are no no
2:45:39bruises, no signs of bleedings, no
2:45:40anything at all. So there wouldn't have
2:45:44been any reason for us to be sums here
2:45:46at all.
2:45:48>> I'd like to pull up a different
2:45:49statement. This is 034138-
2:45:54034141.
2:45:59I'm sorry. The full ERN is 034135-034141
2:46:05read 2.
2:46:10So in that's the it's a multi- language
2:46:12document.
2:46:14in that document. If we can go to page
2:46:15the bottom of page 034140
2:46:19and then there's a different ERN for the
2:46:22revised English translation which is
2:46:25034138-034141-E
2:46:31and if we can go to page 034140-
2:47:00Oh, no. That you're um on this one.
2:47:02That's This is the Albanian. Great.
2:47:04Thank you.
2:47:28What's the end for the English?
2:47:30>> Oh, the ERN for the English is at uh the
2:47:32same page 034140
2:47:34ET. Oh, it's a it's a different ERN on
2:47:39the English.
2:47:41The ERN is 034138-34141-E.
2:48:04Thank you.
2:48:12Sir, this is a letter that you wrote
2:48:16u a type statement rather that you
2:48:18provided um to UNMIC in 2000 September
2:48:22of 2001 when they approached you to ask
2:48:24questions about this matter. Do you
2:48:26recall looking at this before you
2:48:28testified just a few days ago reviewing
2:48:30this letter?
2:48:36Yes, I did write it.
2:48:38>> I'm sorry. I I said letter again. I mean
2:48:40a type statement. It's not a letter. I
2:48:42apologize. Um and in it you said um in
2:48:46describing what had happened, you said
2:48:50shortly afterwards, a few soldiers
2:48:53wearing masks came in and called us up
2:48:55one by one to the back of the room where
2:48:58they punched and kicked and hit us
2:49:00mercilessly with wooden sticks. Six
2:49:03members of our group suffered b serious
2:49:06bodily injuries as a result of the
2:49:09beastly treatment and then it lists
2:49:12George Aimnichi
2:49:14so-called black eye crotes
2:49:18mediardi and you telu
2:49:22do you recall giving that statement
2:49:23describing the nature of the physical
2:49:26altercation as being punched kicked and
2:49:30hit mercilessly with wooden sticks and
2:49:32that it being beastly treatment.
2:49:40>> We had a physical altercation but I
2:49:44don't remember saying and I it's not
2:49:46sure that we were beaten up you with
2:49:49sticks wooden sticks or iron sticks or
2:49:53anything of that sort.
2:49:56>> You mentioned that you tried to get up
2:49:58to to sort of stop the altercation. Um,
2:50:02was that in particular in response to a
2:50:04particular person who was being pushed
2:50:08or being touched?
2:50:15that moment demon
2:50:17>> in that moment as we were
2:50:20having this physical altercation with
2:50:25there they were having this physical
2:50:27altercation with so-called blockade the
2:50:29general secretary
2:50:31I intervened and separated them I tried
2:50:34to calm down everybody and and and sent
2:50:38people away
2:50:41I also want to bring to your attention
2:50:44and to the panel's attention that you're
2:50:48being unfair to me.
2:50:57>> I appreciate you bringing that to my
2:50:59attention and the panel's attention. Um
2:51:03when we met at the end of last week, you
2:51:05you added it wasn't just you trying to
2:51:08calm down the situation that you
2:51:10actually got up and told the uh
2:51:14individuals not to touch so-cal black
2:51:16eye because he was your right hand and
2:51:18you also asked them why do you have a
2:51:21problem with us? We are your brothers,
2:51:23your parents. Do you recall telling us
2:51:25that just a few days ago?
2:51:28>> I'm sorry.
2:51:30That's true.
2:51:33>> Given the reference, the reference was
2:51:36116768
2:51:38to 116787
2:51:40at page 116775
2:51:43paragraph 27.
2:51:51Do you recall though um in your previous
2:51:53testimony in 2014
2:51:56and this is um if we can pull up
2:52:00034236
2:52:02to 034287
2:52:08the particular site
2:52:12in English is 034269
2:52:17and in Albanian
2:52:20it's 034
2:52:22286 towards the top.
2:53:08Do you recall previously describing when
2:53:11so-called black I was being beaten um
2:53:15giving this answer. I remember when
2:53:18so-cal fell down
2:53:22on the floor he while he was being
2:53:24beaten and one of them actually lifted
2:53:26the wooden stick with the intention of
2:53:28hitting his head. That is when I
2:53:30received the worst blow because I tried
2:53:33to prevent him from hitting him on his
2:53:36head. I told him don't that we are
2:53:39brothers. He said, "What brothers? You
2:53:42all deserve to be killed." Soal was a
2:53:46graduate from political sciences. He was
2:53:48a very, very good person. He died after
2:53:52the war.
2:53:54Do you recall giving that explanation
2:53:56about the interaction with so-called
2:53:58black eye and your intervention?
2:54:06There's a
2:54:12explanation which is more or less
2:54:14similar to a movie script.
2:54:18So we
2:54:21in a certain way for a long time we were
2:54:24opponents with the Ka
2:54:28and specific individuals within the KA.
2:54:33There are individuals within the KA I
2:54:36didn't agree with at the time. I don't
2:54:39agree with them now and I will never
2:54:40agree with them. But I do not remember
2:54:44having seen anyone uh falling on the
2:54:46ground on that day. I don't remember.
2:54:51>> Do you recall whether or not Soal Black
2:54:54Eye had any um visible injuries or any
2:54:57blood on him?
2:55:05So did not have injuries because 2 hours
2:55:09after our return in Pristina.
2:55:14I provided you last week with a
2:55:17photograph of soil and us during the
2:55:19press conference. You can obtain the
2:55:22video recording of this press conference
2:55:24and see that we are all safe and sound.
2:55:29And I was there wearing a tie and held
2:55:32this press conference.
2:55:35If we can go in the documents that are
2:55:37on the screen to 034261
2:55:41in the English and in the middle of the
2:55:43page 034278
2:55:45in Albanian.
2:56:17in the English.
2:56:23>> In the English, can you go a little
2:56:25further down?
2:56:28Thank you.
2:56:34Do you recall in your 2014 testimony
2:56:36that's there on the screen, sir, you
2:56:39were asked by the prosecutor, did you or
2:56:42anybody have any visible injuries, for
2:56:44example, blood? And your answer was yes,
2:56:47of course. So-cal black eye, the general
2:56:50secretary of the Liberal Party had
2:56:51injuries on his face. He is now
2:56:54deceased. The others had as well had
2:56:57injuries.
2:56:58They asked me to sign a statement. They
2:57:00are stating that Rogova is a traitor.
2:57:02And then your initials below that.
2:57:06Does that refresh your memory about
2:57:07whether or not you saw blood on soal
2:57:10black eye at the time?
2:57:17>> I don't recall having seen any drop of
2:57:19blood.
2:57:21I don't recall having seen any blood.
2:57:24With respect to person number one who in
2:57:28my opinion was the person in charge
2:57:31there who decided on everything. He
2:57:33maintained order. He gave orders. He
2:57:37also insulted President Rogova. He also
2:57:40insulted us and Babel in Brazina.
2:57:45I think the others present there were
2:57:48important.
2:57:51And again, if you could just stick with
2:57:52my question, it was just whether or not
2:57:54that refreshes your memory about having
2:57:56seen blood on so-called black eye. Do
2:57:58you does that refresh your memory?
2:58:04>> I don't recall seeing any blood on so
2:58:08any of us.
2:58:11However, this was 25 years ago.
2:58:15>> About your injuries that
3:03:38Facebook artists
3:03:41were paid to denigrate and humiliate
3:03:45people. they have specific um manners to
3:03:48deal with and and and means
3:03:52>> you about your injuries that you
3:03:55received and what you described then
3:03:57about a moral injury was not about
3:04:00Facebook. It was about the treatment by
3:04:02the KLA. So my question is is that
3:04:05accurate?
3:04:10>> Yeah.
3:04:12>> No.
3:04:13>> No.
3:04:16The others misuse this moment and have
3:04:21caused me injury
3:04:25that I just read to you. Your physical
3:04:27injuries of the injuries to your arm
3:04:30that at the time your arm was black down
3:04:33to your fingernails and that you um
3:04:36still have a permanent injury. You were
3:04:38testifying in 2014, 16 years after the
3:04:41incident, and you said that when the
3:04:43weather changes, my right arm from the
3:04:45shoulder down to the finger and nails
3:04:47hurts a lot. Is that accurate?
3:04:59I wasn't injured there,
3:05:02but I stumbled somewhere and fell down
3:05:06in the mountain because we didn't use
3:05:09the paved roads. We went to difficult
3:05:13areas to mountainous areas and this
3:05:17might have happened.
3:05:21I don't have any problems with that and
3:05:24the video conference shows that two
3:05:26hours after you return from the
3:05:28mountain.
3:05:31>> I'm sorry I don't understand your answer
3:05:32sir. Are you saying that when you that
3:05:36that sometime during this incident you
3:05:39fell? Is that your testimony?
3:05:46Not only me, the others too. When we
3:05:48were climbing the mountains, we may have
3:05:51fallen down
3:05:54because we were surrounded by the
3:05:56Serbian forces. You could hear shelling.
3:05:59We are talking about a war zone.
3:06:06I maybe I have exaggerated what I did
3:06:10when I described what happened. If I
3:06:14knew the things we end up in court, we
3:06:17would have been more accurate, more
3:06:19precise, more responsible.
3:06:22Uh but we said this in the course of
3:06:25electoral campaigns, you know, and
3:06:27sometimes we exaggerated.
3:06:30>> I understand, sir. I just want to focus
3:06:32on what you just said though about
3:06:34falling at some point during this
3:06:36incident.
3:06:38>> So it's your testimony now that you fell
3:06:41at some point during this incident. Is
3:06:42that your testimony?
3:06:44>> Three.
3:06:47>> Three. I stumbled three four times when
3:06:51we were climbing the mountain. The
3:06:53terrain was very difficult. It was a
3:06:56hilly mountainous terrain. It was night
3:06:59day
3:07:02and we were not used to walking in that
3:07:05terrain. We came from the cities. We
3:07:07lived in the city. It was a very
3:07:11difficult terrain for us.
3:07:14>> You fell
3:07:18>> nothing
3:07:20up. I got up again.
3:07:29>> Even though I have been tortured by
3:07:32Serbia, I have and I'm still alive. I
3:07:36don't know where I get my strength in my
3:07:39DNA.
3:07:41>> Sir, so you fell and you got up. So you
3:07:43you were not injured when you fell. Is
3:07:45that your testimony? We were talking
3:07:47about your injuries and you brought up
3:07:48having fallen.
3:07:54When you fall down, you may get hurt.
3:07:57Even in the city, you may hurt your arm.
3:08:00But it's not a tragedy.
3:08:03It's another thing. If you go to the
3:08:05hospital, if you ask for medical
3:08:07assistance,
3:08:09it's you are making a big deal out of
3:08:11it. It's nothing for me.
3:08:15>> Understand? So, you're you're saying
3:08:16that you fell and I'm not asking whether
3:08:18you may have gotten hurt. I'm actually
3:08:21asking you about what your recollection
3:08:23is as you sit here today. Did you suffer
3:08:26any injuries when you fell according to
3:08:29your testimony? Now
3:08:35>> maybe I did suffer,
3:08:38but at that moment I thought of nothing
3:08:42else other than
3:08:47doing what we were supposed to do as
3:08:50delegation and to turn back safe and
3:08:54sound in Kosovo like we went there.
3:08:58>> Sir, again that's not my question. I'm
3:09:00not asking you to speculate. So when you
3:09:03say maybe, what I'm asking you is as
3:09:06you're sitting here today telling us for
3:09:08the first time about having fallen as
3:09:11you were going up the mountain,
3:09:14did you injure yourself? That's yes or
3:09:17no. As you sit here today,
3:09:23>> maybe I was injured. It is possible
3:09:29if you get down even when you play you
3:09:33always get injured. We have professional
3:09:37footballers that get hurt and then
3:09:40recover again.
3:09:42>> Not asking you theoretically if it's
3:09:44possible that you got hurt. I'm actually
3:09:46asking you if you as you sit here today
3:09:49recall being injured since you've
3:09:52brought this incident up to us. As you
3:09:53sit here today
3:09:56I had my arm uh a little injured from
3:10:02the fall, but it passed without any
3:10:06consequence.
3:10:08>> Okay. So now your testimony is you did
3:10:10have a physical injury on your arm. Is
3:10:12that right?
3:10:15>> Oh
3:10:16>> yes.
3:10:18>> From the fall,
3:10:20>> which is normal,
3:10:21>> which is quite normal. not once but four
3:10:25times I remember to have fallen down
3:10:30>> and um why didn't you include that in
3:10:33your in your statement to unmick in 2001
3:10:40>> first of all
3:10:42was cred was not credible at all with
3:10:46some exceptions of some
3:10:50authoritative states but There were also
3:10:54representatives from states that had
3:10:57more much more problems in their own
3:10:59countries than there than here in Kosovo
3:11:03>> actually provide a statement to UNMIC.
3:11:05You spoke to them and then you gave them
3:11:07a type statement. So you did actually
3:11:09provide a statement to them. Why didn't
3:11:11you include this?
3:11:16because I didn't deem it appropriate or
3:11:19necessary to mention that when I fell,
3:11:23when I had some injuries or what
3:11:27diseases I have even now I do, but I
3:11:30don't think I should tell it to the
3:11:32public. It's a private thing.
3:11:36And when you gave your testimony in 2014
3:11:38and were told that you were obligated to
3:11:40tell the truth and this was a criminal
3:11:43investigation in search of the truth,
3:11:44why didn't you include it then when you
3:11:46testified over those course of two days
3:11:55at
3:11:59then I was questioned
3:12:02about the KA people actions
3:12:06that we described visav us. I wasn't
3:12:10asked whether I fell down, where my
3:12:12shoes were pinching me, where I had an
3:12:15headache or ear ache. I was asked about
3:12:19other issues.
3:12:21>> Well, sir, the question I just read to
3:12:23you, you were actually asked about your
3:12:25physical injuries, and you didn't give
3:12:28the answer that you just gave in court
3:12:30in response to the same question. you
3:12:33gave the answer that I read to you,
3:12:35which is that it was a result of the
3:12:36beatings. So, I'm just asking you again
3:12:39why it is that you didn't share that
3:12:41information back in 2014.
3:12:49I the injury didn't come about as a
3:12:51result of the beating. And again, please
3:12:54I'm kindly asking you for the untenth
3:12:58time because nobody can stop me from
3:13:01keeping silent from now on.
3:13:04You can do everything to me. But don't
3:13:08mention the word beating. Nobody in the
3:13:11world can beat me. up because you are
3:13:14offending me. You are offending my
3:13:16family, my family code and traditions,
3:13:20our history, our future, my
3:13:22grandchildren,
3:13:24my wife and my in-laws.
3:13:29>> I mean no offense, sir. I, as the panel
3:13:32instructed you, I have a duty
3:13:35>> I feel offended.
3:13:37>> I'm sorry that you feel offended. I have
3:13:39a duty to ask my questions and my aim
3:13:43for this panel for this tribunal is to
3:13:45do it in the most respectful way
3:13:46possible but to ask you the questions
3:13:49that need to be asked sir.
3:13:51um when you we also met the end of last
3:13:56week just a few days ago and you were
3:13:59given all of your prior statements and
3:14:01you were asked to make any corrections
3:14:03or clarifications
3:14:05and we spent quite a bit of time going
3:14:07over those clarifications
3:14:09and um there's a rather lengthy note
3:14:12that was read back to you and even when
3:14:15we read it back to you you made some
3:14:17additional clarifications.
3:14:20Why didn't you include
3:14:22this fall that you've told us about or
3:14:24there's multiple falls now that you've
3:14:25told us about when we met last week?
3:14:36>> Why should I
3:14:38mention my faults
3:14:41by you? I was asked about
3:14:45our relationship with the KLA.
3:14:50Why
3:14:52>> should I be asked whether I fall down or
3:14:55get up? That's not relevant at all.
3:15:01>> I am informing you maybe you don't know
3:15:03that there are some men in Kosovo that
3:15:06nobody can beat up. We can get killed
3:15:09but not to be beaten up.
3:15:14So
3:15:16the word is very uh very problematic.
3:15:20You may tell me, you may ask me, you
3:15:22want to die and get you into a coffin,
3:15:25and I'm willing to do that, but not get
3:15:29beaten. Even when the Serbian police
3:15:33arrested me, the first thing I told them
3:15:35was, "You can kill me, but don't touch
3:15:37me
3:15:40>> because we put our life at stake for
3:15:42cost of freedom."
3:15:45>> Well, just to be clear, sir, the the
3:15:48when we met, you were given your
3:15:50statements and you clarified many things
3:15:52and you gave new information about many
3:15:55things that was then read back to you.
3:15:57It wasn't just about questions about
3:15:59your relationship with the KLA, but I'm
3:16:02going to move on. Um, when this physical
3:16:05altercation happened, as you've
3:16:07described it, where was Reep Salemi and
3:16:11Hashimachi? Were they present?
3:16:21>> None of them were present. I didn't see
3:16:24any of them.
3:16:26I saw Hashimi after some two hours.
3:16:31None of them were present then.
3:16:35If they were, I would have said
3:16:37immediately that they were, but they
3:16:39were not present.
3:16:41Rajimi very respectfully and politely
3:16:45returned the ideas to us and I will
3:16:48never forget his kind words.
3:16:51Hashim Tachi
3:16:53appeared after two hours
3:16:57and he was very nervous with the radio
3:17:01trans transistor listening to the news
3:17:04very upset
3:17:07and I could see that they didn't have a
3:17:10very good report with person number one
3:17:13and I think that person number one was
3:17:15the one that decided on everything.
3:17:21something else I would like if you'll
3:17:24allow me. I have great respect for the
3:17:28trial panel. That's why I'm here.
3:17:31Otherwise, I would have killed myself.
3:17:34Nobody would have stopped me. My life is
3:17:36my own.
3:17:38You can have auto uh you know autonia in
3:17:42Switzerland for€ 10,000 euro. But I
3:17:45wanted to come and tell the truth
3:17:48because there are many slanders leveled
3:17:51at KLA. That's why I'm here and I can
3:17:54stay here as long as you wish me to
3:17:57answer your question to to shed light on
3:18:00the uh destiny and reputation of KA
3:18:04because in my opinion 99% of what is
3:18:07being said regarding a are slanders.
3:18:13How did this um physical altercation
3:18:17stop?
3:18:21>> Very soon
3:18:27they told us to go to a classroom. We
3:18:31sat down
3:18:33in the benches there and then I saw Syia
3:18:36Share there.
3:18:39to my recollection he took us to this
3:18:41classroom. Then there was this Tahir
3:18:44school that I used to know from Pristina
3:18:49and then later as I said came Hashimach
3:18:54the distinguished president of the
3:18:56republic of Kosovo.
3:19:00If we can go to the document that's on
3:19:02the screen at 034269
3:19:05in English
3:19:08and
3:19:12034286
3:19:15in the Albanian towards the bottom.
3:19:29And I think in the English it's a little
3:19:32bit lower as well. Great.
3:19:40Do you recall um giving this testimony
3:19:43in regard to how the beatings ended?
3:19:48You said the attack ceased. The
3:19:50prosecutor, you said the attack ceased
3:19:51when the person fell on the floor. Did
3:19:54they not fall on the floor when they
3:19:55were first hit? Your answer, not
3:19:58immediately. This was unexpected. They
3:20:00protected themselves with their arms.
3:20:04Prosecutor, when they fell on the floor,
3:20:05did the attack continue? Your answer:
3:20:08Yes, it went on. I told you they were
3:20:11about to kill soal. Their aim was to hit
3:20:13and kick. whether they were standing or
3:20:16on the floor. And then the question from
3:20:19the prosecutor, what made them stop each
3:20:21individual beating?
3:20:24Your answer, in my opinion, someone must
3:20:26have told them that out of the those 13
3:20:29people, these six are to be beaten and
3:20:32after beating them up, you are to stop
3:20:35immediately. It is possible that their
3:20:37aim was to scare us for the future
3:20:40interrogation.
3:20:42Do you recall um giving that answer in
3:20:45describing or those answers that series
3:20:47of questions and answers in describing
3:20:50how the beating stopped
3:20:56>> and the pro
3:20:59>> distinguish miss prosecutor
3:21:02distinguished
3:21:04president of the courts?
3:21:08Maybe you have not read the letter I
3:21:11sent you last year.
3:21:14Maybe you have
3:21:17because you have had to. In that letter,
3:21:22I distanced myself from all the
3:21:26statements I gave after the press
3:21:28conference when we returned.
3:21:32And I feel responsible for what I stated
3:21:36that day at the meeting of the
3:21:38presidency for the VA and at the press
3:21:41conference and here for whatever I'm
3:21:44saying here
3:21:49in this letter I call the court anti-
3:21:51Albanian political one-sided. You are
3:21:54not to blame that this is established.
3:22:00It's because of Dick Martin report. When
3:22:04Dick Martin and Russia and Serbian
3:22:07statement became invalidated, the court
3:22:09should have been transferred to Kosovo
3:22:12or closed down.
3:22:14>> Question. Please repeat the question.
3:22:22Sir,
3:22:23sir, I just asked you if after having
3:22:26read that passage back to you, those
3:22:28questions and answers, if that refresh
3:22:31your memory about how the beatings
3:22:34ended. Does that refresh your memory
3:22:36about how the beatings stopped?
3:22:46I didn't see anyone falling on the floor
3:22:51or lying on the floor. I don't recall to
3:22:53have seen any drop of blood. There
3:22:56absolutely was
3:23:01no one bitten with iron bars
3:23:05or with uh wooden sticks. I don't
3:23:08remember those. The fact that I dist
3:23:11myself from that speaks
3:23:14a lot. You can go on with the questions.
3:23:17I'm here to answer.
3:23:20>> Appreciate that. What about the last
3:23:22part of what uh I read to you which is
3:23:24you said in your opinion someone must
3:23:26have told them that out of those 13
3:23:29people these six are to be beaten and
3:23:32after beating them up you are to stop
3:23:34immediately. It is possible that their
3:23:37aim was to scare us for the future
3:23:39interrogation.
3:23:41Um, is that is does that refresh your
3:23:45recollection as to what you thought
3:23:46about why they stopped the beating?
3:23:55>> This is a classic case of speculation if
3:23:58I said it so. There's no possibility
3:24:01even technical one for me.
3:24:05to hear if what someone might have said
3:24:10to somebody else or to beat someone. So,
3:24:15you know, it's a speculation.
3:24:19This was entirely spontaneous.
3:24:23I described it on many occasions.
3:24:27Although you have the absolute right to
3:24:30ask me the same question over and over
3:24:32again. After
3:24:38um the six of you that were involved in
3:24:41this physical altercation, did you all
3:24:43have any conversation with each other?
3:24:52>> What time you referring to your
3:24:55prosecutor?
3:24:57>> This as you describe it, this physical
3:24:59altercation that involved the six of
3:25:01you. So, it involved you and Agim
3:25:03Krnichi, Medi Bardi, um uh so-called
3:25:07Black Eye.
3:25:10Um
3:25:11after after that physical altercation,
3:25:15um did you all speak with each other,
3:25:18either just the six of you or um the all
3:25:20of the delegates?
3:25:25I
3:25:27do recall that the silence rained in
3:25:34that
3:25:37everyone was thinking or reflecting on
3:25:39why this incident
3:25:41happened.
3:25:44>> To name I only named five. The sixth was
3:25:46Yousef Telu. Um what were you reflecting
3:25:48on? Um what what what was it that you
3:25:51were reflecting on?
3:25:58>> We were reflecting
3:26:03and
3:26:05also then in the meetings I had with the
3:26:11president
3:26:12I tried to explain the purpose of our
3:26:14visit. We exchanged about the
3:26:18developments.
3:26:21>> We're going to get to what your
3:26:22conversation with Hashimi. My question
3:26:24is
3:26:25>> you the delegates together. What were
3:26:27you reflecting on? You just said you
3:26:28were reflecting. So what were you
3:26:30reflecting on?
3:26:37>> It's not it's unclear to me. Could you
3:26:39please ask the question again?
3:26:42>> Sure. I asked initially after this
3:26:46physical altercation if the six of you
3:26:48together or all 13 delegates if you had
3:26:51any conversation and in response to that
3:26:54you said that you were sitting there and
3:26:56you were reflecting. So my follow-up
3:26:58question is what were you reflecting on?
3:27:05>> Reflect on him. We were thinking,
3:27:09reflecting why this misunderstanding,
3:27:12why this incident?
3:27:15You could put yourself in our shoes. Why
3:27:20this happened? Because this was not only
3:27:21bad for us. It gave a bad reflection on
3:27:26the KLA, which was not the case.
3:27:30But now again we're talking here about a
3:27:34voluntary army and an army which was not
3:27:38systemized. It didn't have a leading
3:27:40structure. Uh virtually everyone would
3:27:44do anything they wanted to. This could
3:27:46have happened as well.
3:27:49>> Much about the KLA and I'm not asking
3:27:51you about your opinion about their
3:27:52structure. Um, I'm asking you about what
3:27:54you were reflecting on and what you just
3:27:56told us was because this was bad both
3:27:59for you but also for the KLA. So that's
3:28:02because they are the ones that did this
3:28:03to you. Is that right? This was done by
3:28:05Albanians against you.
3:28:16>> It's a very difficult question. I cannot
3:28:20know what we exactly thought in those
3:28:23moments which were 25 years ago.
3:28:26Believe me, I don't know what we exactly
3:28:30thought.
3:28:33>> Go to the top of page 034262.
3:28:38I'm sorry. Sorry. It starts at the
3:28:39bottom of page 034262
3:28:42in the in the English and in the middle
3:28:45um of the page 034279
3:28:49in Albanian
3:29:05in the English. if you can go down to
3:29:07the bottom. Thank you.
3:29:13And you were asked by the prosecutor in
3:29:162014, what was the discussion between
3:29:18you and your fellow delegates in that
3:29:20room? And then if in English we can go
3:29:22to the top of the next page
3:29:28and you answered,
3:29:30we spoke very little because there they
3:29:33were all in an incredible state.
3:29:36I cannot describe the state we were all
3:29:39in there. It was the first time they
3:29:41were all beaten. It would not have been
3:29:43a problem if we were beaten by the
3:29:45Serbs, but we were beaten by Albanians,
3:29:49by those who were supposed to protect
3:29:51us.
3:29:52Is that what you were reflecting on
3:29:55after the physical altercation?
3:30:03I personally because I wouldn't know
3:30:05what the others were reflecting on. I
3:30:08was not in their mind. I was mostly
3:30:13reflecting on the alarming situation in
3:30:15which the civilians were in their needs
3:30:18and what I saw. Allow me to describe one
3:30:21scene. I saw an abandoned child without
3:30:26parents biting on a piece of bread that
3:30:30he took from the mud.
3:30:33These are things I witnessed and
3:30:35experienced. Now, with respect to the
3:30:38incident, the disagreement with the KLA,
3:30:41this was a minor thing compared to what
3:30:45was going on in Kosovo. Children were
3:30:47being killed. 1,400 children were
3:30:50killed. Women were being raped. Our
3:30:53mothers, including handicapped in their
3:30:57wheelchairs, were being killed. These
3:31:00were mothers of concern for us. And
3:31:02these were mothers of reflection for us.
3:31:06That child I saw eating a muddy piece of
3:31:10bread. I um gave to that child every
3:31:14other possible violation committed by
3:31:16the KA.
3:31:19Um, I just have one last question, your
3:31:21honors, if I may. I know we're at time.
3:31:23Um, were you or any of the other
3:31:25detaininees offered any medical
3:31:27treatment um while you were in KLA
3:31:29custody?
3:31:37>> We We didn't need to.
3:31:40>> None of us. We didn't need to.
3:31:45Were you offered any?
3:31:51>> We did not need to. They offered us
3:31:55drinks. If you're referring to the Ka,
3:31:58whoever
3:31:59wanted beer was offered beer and those
3:32:02who smoke were offered cigarettes.
3:32:09>> Um, I think this is a good time to
3:32:10break.
3:32:11witness. We will break for lunch now
3:32:14for an hour and a half. You'll be back
3:32:16here at 2:30.
3:32:41All right.
3:33:14All right.
3:33:28Be seated.
3:33:36Madame court officer, please bring the
3:33:37witness into the courtroom.
3:35:52Witness, we are ready to continue the
3:35:54direct examination by the special
3:35:56prosecutor's office. Madam prosecutor,
3:35:59you can continue.
3:36:00>> Thank you, Mr. President.
3:36:06>> I want to pick up where we left off
3:36:08before the break. Um after um this as
3:36:12you describe it physical altercation
3:36:15were you taken to a classroom or another
3:36:18room?
3:36:25>> They took us one of the classrooms in
3:36:27the school building.
3:36:31>> Can you describe what was in that
3:36:32classroom?
3:36:38kiss.
3:36:39>> There were beds instead of chairs or
3:36:44desks. There were beds.
3:36:49>> Did the me did the beds um were they
3:36:51bare like without mattresses or sheets
3:36:54or blankets?
3:37:03there only the structure because there
3:37:06was this was not a hotel. It was a
3:37:09school building.
3:37:13>> Were what if anything were you told
3:37:16about whether you would stay there or
3:37:18not?
3:37:25>> They left us in that classroom for a
3:37:27while.
3:37:32Sometimes somebody would come in and
3:37:34check in.
3:37:38>> Nothing
3:37:40major happened until 2 hours
3:37:44later when President Thali came.
3:37:51>> When you say sometimes someone would
3:37:53come in, would they come in and take
3:37:55individuals from the delegation out of
3:37:57the classroom?
3:38:00you ask.
3:38:02>> No, they didn't take anyone out of the
3:38:04classroom and after the physical
3:38:06altercation, we did not have any uh
3:38:09additional or other problems.
3:38:14>> I'd ask to go to page 034261
3:38:19in English and 034277
3:38:23in Albanian.
3:38:56In 2014, you said
3:38:59after, and this is at page 261, after
3:39:02the beatings, they took us to another
3:39:03classroom in which there were some beds
3:39:06barren with no sheets or blankets, and
3:39:08they told us that we were going to stay
3:39:10there.
3:39:13Uh, then there's another question. Uh,
3:39:15I'll skip a question and the one after
3:39:17that is, "What happened then?" And your
3:39:19answer was the individual questioning
3:39:21took place one by one.
3:39:24If we go to the next page,
3:39:27page two 3 034262
3:39:30in the English and 034279
3:39:34in Albanian.
3:39:53And in the English if you can scroll
3:39:54down just a little bit further. Perfect.
3:40:00You also then said um you started by
3:40:03saying I am referring to the time before
3:40:06we were individually questioned. The
3:40:09prosecutor then said you were beaten up.
3:40:12You were taken to another room with beds
3:40:14without mattresses. You described being
3:40:16taken individually to rooms where you
3:40:19were questioned by Hashimi.
3:40:21At what point did you write these
3:40:23statements and your answer was this was
3:40:26in the room with beds without mattresses
3:40:29before we were taken to be individually
3:40:32questioned. They put soldiers outside to
3:40:35stop us from leaving.
3:40:38So, I want to ask you, witness, first of
3:40:41all, when you were put into this room
3:40:43with beds and no mattresses, sheets or
3:40:45blankets, did they put a soldier outside
3:40:48to stop you from leaving?
3:40:59>> I don't remember. I am not sure.
3:41:06And did you uh do these two passages
3:41:10that I read to you
3:41:14that both talk about being individually
3:41:16questioned or questioned one by one?
3:41:18Were the delegates in fact taken out
3:41:21individually one by one for questioning?
3:41:28We were not questioned
3:41:31in the sense as we would be questioned
3:41:34by the certain police.
3:41:38We had a conversation
3:41:42>> though is was that individually one by
3:41:44one
3:41:51>> I don't know what happened with others
3:41:54present there however I was invited to
3:41:58have a conversation with president
3:42:02>> to the substance of that conversation in
3:42:04a few minutes but when you were taken
3:42:07were you the only one of the delegates.
3:42:09Was it just you yourself individually?
3:42:16>> No, the entire delegation was in that
3:42:19classroom.
3:42:22>> And when you were in the classroom, uh
3:42:25were any of the delegates taken out
3:42:27while you still remained in the
3:42:28classroom? Was anyone taken away one by
3:42:30one?
3:42:35>> I don't remember. I don't think they
3:42:37were taken away one by one.
3:42:46I am talking about President Ther
3:42:50when he came. So this was two hours
3:42:54after the whole event when President Taj
3:42:57made his first appearance.
3:43:00I am not certain he spoke to every
3:43:02single one of the persons present there
3:43:05but I think he spoke to those who had
3:43:08more important roles within the
3:43:10delegation but I wouldn't want to
3:43:12speculate.
3:43:16All right. If we could go to page 261 in
3:43:19the English and the bottom of uh 034 277
3:43:24in the Albanian to the top
3:43:27of 278
3:43:52All right, witness. In your 2014
3:43:56testimony, you said the individual
3:43:59questioning took place one by one. The
3:44:01prosecutor asks, could you explain what
3:44:03happened to you? Your answer, I was
3:44:06questioned at a table by Hashimi.
3:44:10Prosecutor, in the same room. Answer:
3:44:13No, I was taken to another room.
3:44:17Question: Did Hashimachi take you to the
3:44:19other room or was he waiting there for
3:44:22you?
3:44:24Your answer, it was one of the soldiers
3:44:27who said, "Jurge dead eye, come with
3:44:29me."
3:44:32>> Is that what happened that you were
3:44:33called by name?
3:44:35>> Let me just finish my question, sir.
3:44:38>> Is that what happened? that you were
3:44:39that you were called by name by one of
3:44:41the soldiers and taken to another room
3:44:44where Hashimachi was waiting for you and
3:44:47then he questioned you at a table.
3:44:54>> Yes. Somebody called me
3:44:59and took me to a room where President
3:45:03Tachi was. We sat down
3:45:06and uh talked, had a conversation. Had a
3:45:11conversation.
3:45:15>> Were you asked to give um your CV, your
3:45:19background?
3:45:25>> They asked us who we were.
3:45:30In my statements,
3:45:32I have said that the KA like every other
3:45:37army had the right to suspect who we
3:45:41were because most of us in the
3:45:44delegation were not known to them.
3:45:48>> Sir, as you said earlier to the court,
3:45:50we don't want you to speculate and I
3:45:52don't think you know what they knew
3:45:53about you. So, I'm going to ask you to
3:45:55just stick with what you knew. Okay. Um
3:45:58and my question is whether or not
3:46:02um that when when you were called there
3:46:06in terms of questioning
3:46:08what um whether or not Hashinachi was
3:46:10there and you were questioned by him.
3:46:12That's my question.
3:46:17>> He didn't question me but we had a
3:46:20conversation together.
3:46:24Next question was whether you were asked
3:46:27to write your CV or a bio about
3:46:30yourself. Did that happen? Were you
3:46:32asked to write your CV or a short CV I
3:46:34should say?
3:46:38>> Kamharu
3:46:39>> I have forgotten this is not remained
3:46:43with me.
3:46:46>> All right. If we can go to page 034262
3:46:50in the English
3:46:52and the top of 034279
3:46:55in Albanian.
3:47:17All right. And does this refresh your
3:47:19memory then since you said you don't
3:47:20remember? The prosecutor asks, "When you
3:47:23were seated there, was it just you or
3:47:25were others there?" Your answer just me.
3:47:29We were questioned one by one. We were
3:47:32initially asked to write a short CV
3:47:35stating who we were. Quote, I am dead.
3:47:39and afterwards they gathered those
3:47:42statements from all of us. Does that
3:47:45refresh your memory about providing a a
3:47:47written CV?
3:47:48>> Yes,
3:47:50>> I don't remember that but it may have
3:47:53happened.
3:47:56It's not relevant
3:47:59whether they knew wanted to know who we
3:48:02were. Not in my case because they knew
3:48:05who I was but for the others they didn't
3:48:08know who they were.
3:48:11And who was there when Hashimin thoughti
3:48:13was at the table and you were there? Was
3:48:15anyone else in the room with you?
3:48:21>> Persona nominee.
3:48:23>> Person number one came and
3:48:27left.
3:48:29But
3:48:31the conversation I had was with
3:48:34President Tachi.
3:48:41And uh so did person number one um ask
3:48:44any questions?
3:48:48>> I don't remember.
3:48:50I don't know whether he was capable of
3:48:53asking questions.
3:49:04>> The questions we were interested to
3:49:07discuss were political developments in
3:49:10Kosovo. since I was
3:49:14uh one of some most important persons
3:49:19regarding cooper international
3:49:20cooperation with Washington, Brussels,
3:49:24NATO.
3:49:25We focused our conversation on
3:49:31the stand of such international
3:49:33institutions visa vosovo.
3:49:37So we could have such conversation with
3:49:40uh president Taji but not with person
3:49:43number one
3:49:54>> about how long did these question
3:49:55>> microphone
3:49:57>> about how long did these questions last
3:50:02minute
3:50:04>> I'll say about an for
3:50:06I cannot be precise.
3:50:14>> If you allow me, I'd like to underline
3:50:17that we had a very normal, quiet
3:50:21conversation
3:50:25like we were like 10 years after the
3:50:27war. A collegial professional
3:50:30conversation, let's say.
3:50:38I understand that you don't remember all
3:50:39the details, but when you had to um when
3:50:44you gave your information about who you
3:50:46were, did you give um information about
3:50:49your party affiliation and your
3:50:51profession?
3:50:58>> Well, I'm repeating.
3:51:01If it's necessary, I would repeat it as
3:51:04long as you as many times as you want.
3:51:07But I was a public figure then.
3:51:12And
3:51:16I'm asking is did you give your
3:51:18information? If you didn't because you
3:51:20believe people knew it that then you can
3:51:22just say that. But I'm just if you can
3:51:24answer the question is did you provide
3:51:27information about your party affiliation
3:51:29and your profession?
3:51:39Yes, I spoke also about myself like I'm
3:51:43doing now, which was quite normal.
3:51:47As I already said, myself and the party
3:51:51I led
3:51:54were more advanced in our uh
3:51:57international relations in the Balkans
3:51:59and with other political parties of
3:52:03Europe and the world.
3:52:08>> Were you asked about the purpose of your
3:52:10visit to Churz when you were having this
3:52:12conversation?
3:52:15Oh,
3:52:16>> yes.
3:52:18the reason why we went there. who
3:52:22explained to them
3:52:25that it is an entirely humanitarian
3:52:29reason but also to look at the situation
3:52:34from close up so that when I went abroad
3:52:37to Brussels, Washington or elsewhere I
3:52:40would be able to give a fair description
3:52:44of what was happening in Reanita which
3:52:47was the most uh hit
3:52:51a region and destroyed which the Serbian
3:52:54police torched and killed people there
3:52:59also in other regions like Dukaiin and
3:53:01others.
3:53:04>> Were you asked about who organized the
3:53:08trip?
3:53:12>> Paul.
3:53:13>> Yes.
3:53:15Whose idea it was? The idea was mine and
3:53:19of President Rogova
3:53:21who told me that Sean Burns the chief of
3:53:26US diplomatic uh mission whose office
3:53:29was in Kosova Fosov
3:53:33said it was a good idea because
3:53:36everything we did we did it in
3:53:38partnership first of all with the US and
3:53:41then European Union and NATO because
3:53:44that was a joint
3:53:48uh project. Every time I came from an
3:53:51international visit, I went to meet Shan
3:53:54Burns and informed him of the situation
3:53:58on the ground.
3:54:02>> Speaking of those other trips, were you
3:54:04asked by Hashimachi about those other
3:54:06trips as well?
3:54:09>> Yeah. Yeah.
3:54:10>> No, no,
3:54:14no. He there was no reason for him to
3:54:17ask me
3:54:18as I told you. I don't know how much you
3:54:22can believe me but we engaged in a very
3:54:27normal quiet conversation without any
3:54:30tension
3:54:31uh the reason why we went there. I
3:54:33explained to him like I'm doing now.
3:54:39I'm not asking about the um tone of the
3:54:43conversation, whether there was tension.
3:54:45That wasn't my question. It's about the
3:54:46content of the conversation.
3:54:58We discuss more at length about
3:55:00political developments in pristina
3:55:03because pristine and uh ka didn't have
3:55:08very coordinated
3:55:10relationship
3:55:13knowing president knowing my role and
3:55:17influence on US and European diplomacy
3:55:22he was eager to know
3:55:26the approach of such international hubs
3:55:29which for us were very very crucial very
3:55:32and will be so forever our partnership
3:55:35with US and Europe.
3:55:39Uh also regarding KA how they regarded
3:55:43KLA that is
3:55:46>> were you asked about any interactions
3:55:49you had with the Serbs on your travel to
3:55:52Churz? Was that part of the
3:55:53conversation?
3:56:04Because each of us, the KLA and the Wii
3:56:07in Christina, every Albanian knew
3:56:11how we were treated by the Serbs.
3:56:15>> What every Albanian knew. I'm just
3:56:17asking whether you were asked about
3:56:18that. Were you asked about President
3:56:22Rogova?
3:56:25I don't remember.
3:56:28We talked about President Ruggova.
3:56:34President Ruggova and President Such are
3:56:37the two main pivotal figures in the
3:56:40history of the Kosovo state.
3:56:44>> What specifically were you asked or what
3:56:47was the discussion about President
3:56:49Reggoa?
3:56:55there were speculations.
3:56:59But we are talking about Kosovo
3:57:04at that time when everybody
3:57:07did what they wanted and like wrote and
3:57:10did what they liked like Serbs or
3:57:13Russian or others services but you are
3:57:15not letting me explain to you. So there
3:57:20was speculations about Rugova's stand
3:57:23towards Ka even though he was never
3:57:26against the Ka there might have been
3:57:29individuals within his party who had
3:57:31prejudices
3:57:33regarding Kle but as far as Rogoa goes
3:57:36he was a supporter of the Kosovo
3:57:39liberation army.
3:57:42>> So my question wasn't about what
3:57:45President Rogova's stance was. It was
3:57:48about what you were asked or what the
3:57:51discussion was about President Regova.
3:57:53Can you tell the panel what you were
3:57:56asked about President Reggova?
3:58:03>> In the opin public opinion then it were
3:58:07many things were written and things
3:58:10which were not true like President
3:58:12Regova allegedly is against KLA. There
3:58:16were certain services that did that.
3:58:20>> Sir, you just said that and that's not
3:58:21my question. Let me go to 034263
3:58:26in English
3:58:28and corresponding that starting at the
3:58:30bottom of 034279
3:58:32in the Albanian
3:58:48The prosecutor asked you, "What
3:58:49specifically were you asked?" Your
3:58:52answer, "We were made to say that we
3:58:55were traitors because we support the
3:58:57policies of Ibrahim Reggova." Actually,
3:59:00I asked them a question which irritated
3:59:03them even more. I asked them whether
3:59:05they had problems with Malloich or with
3:59:08Regova. I told them that we support
3:59:10RGOA. I said to them that I do not know
3:59:14which side you are on. From that point
3:59:17on, I did not want to go on living. The
3:59:20emotional state follows me on a daily
3:59:22basis because I think that we were the
3:59:24people who actually worked for the
3:59:27freedom of Kosovo.
3:59:30Is that what happened? Was that the
3:59:32discussion about President Rogova with
3:59:35within
3:59:37you thought? Not with President Tut.
3:59:41This was not the conversation we had
3:59:43with President Tut.
3:59:47>> Who was the conversation with
3:59:50this?
3:59:53You are want to make it difficult for me
3:59:57also for the rest of my life.
4:00:00But it's not a problem for me
4:00:04as much as it is for my children and the
4:00:07my family members. We mention the person
4:00:13with a code. I don't want to have it
4:00:18mentioned often because it is with these
4:00:21persons that we had these problems and
4:00:24maybe we generalize them. We were also
4:00:28indignant at what was at at what
4:00:30happened. But we discussed this with
4:00:34President we did not discuss this what
4:00:36you are putting to me. Now
4:00:39>> we can go to 034265
4:00:42in English
4:00:44and 034281
4:00:47at the bottom in Albanian.
4:01:10All right. And you're asked by the
4:01:12prosecutor during these interrogations,
4:01:15what were you asked by Hashim? So, this
4:01:18is in specific reference to Hashimi. No
4:01:21one else.
4:01:22Your answer is the whole idea was to
4:01:26discredit Regova and the whole political
4:01:29class belonging to him. I got convinced
4:01:32later that these people that did this
4:01:35did not fight for freedom but they
4:01:36fought for power.
4:01:39Do you recall is that then the
4:01:43conversation that you had with Hashimi?
4:01:45Not with anybody else.
4:01:51If I said that,
4:01:54you have not allowed me to explain why I
4:01:57gave this statement.
4:02:00This is what you want to hear, not what
4:02:03you should hear.
4:02:07I'm repeating with President with Rajimi
4:02:13Kadriel,
4:02:15the speaker of parliament whom I knew
4:02:18three four years after the war. I did
4:02:20not know him. I have my respect for
4:02:23them.
4:02:25We did not have problems. I told you
4:02:28with whom we had problems.
4:02:31Official Brina LDK
4:02:34part of the LDK. Some individuals
4:02:37did not have good report with KLA and
4:02:42vice versa.
4:02:45There were KLA individuals who hated
4:02:49President Rugova or we us as a political
4:02:52class because there were there was no
4:02:55coordination.
4:02:59>> Sir, my only question was what after
4:03:02reading you that passage is that the
4:03:04conversation that you had with
4:03:05Hashimachi? It had nothing to do with
4:03:08your general relationship with anyone
4:03:10else. So after reading that passage, was
4:03:13that your conversation with Hashimi
4:03:15about discrediting President Reggova?
4:03:21>> Yeah. Yeah.
4:03:23>> No. No.
4:03:27Hashimi
4:03:29did not utter a single discrediting word
4:03:32towards Ibrahim Morgova.
4:03:36Were you asked to write or sign a
4:03:39statement while you were there um after
4:03:41you were being questioned?
4:03:50>> I don't believe I signed any statement.
4:03:54Perhaps we gave a resume or who we were,
4:03:58what kind of job we do.
4:04:02This was
4:04:05more
4:04:06like information provided because there
4:04:10were people within the delegation whom
4:04:13nobody knew and people I didn't know
4:04:15myself.
4:04:19If we can bring up the uh the bottom of
4:04:22page 034261
4:04:24in English
4:04:26and 034278
4:04:29in Albanian,
4:04:45if you go to the very bottom in the
4:04:46English.
4:04:49Great
4:04:51witness. In your answer, you're talking
4:04:53about um so-called black eye in the
4:04:55beginning, but then you say at the end
4:04:56of this answer, they asked me to sign a
4:04:59statement there stating that quote,
4:05:02"Rgova is a traitor." And then on the
4:05:05top of the next page in the English two
4:05:08034262,
4:05:14you then say
4:05:17they then the prosecutor then asked you
4:05:20who asked you to write these statements
4:05:22and you answered Hashimi, Sabati and
4:05:25Reep Salemi. These are the people that I
4:05:28got to know after meeting them. Then I
4:05:31got to know who they are were
4:05:34prosecutor. Did you write out a
4:05:36statement in that room witness? Yes. So
4:05:41were you asked to write a statement that
4:05:43Rogova was a traitor
4:05:46by Hashimachi Sabiketsi and Reep Salimi?
4:05:57May I interrupt for just
4:05:58>> in no moment.
4:06:00>> Maybe I'm mistaken here, but there's a
4:06:02discrepancy between what was read out
4:06:04and what's being shown on the screen.
4:06:43So, it started at the very bottom of
4:06:45page 261.
4:06:47Oh, sorry. That was the previous that
4:06:49was the previous question. Um, it's it's
4:06:53on page 262. I believe we were on page
4:06:55262 for this question.
4:07:01And I think it's towards the top.
4:07:06Oh, sorry. It's at the bottom. I'm so
4:07:08sorry.
4:07:10It says it's starting five lines up,
4:07:13five um entries up from the bottom. It
4:07:16starts with who asked you to write these
4:07:18statements?
4:07:21>> And I don't believe there's any
4:07:22discrepancy since I'm reading off of an
4:07:24image of it.
4:07:26I guess my only um objection is the
4:07:29context. There is a part at the top
4:07:31where he's he's
4:07:33describes the roles particularly with
4:07:35respect to Mr. Thought sheet and then he
4:07:37gets to that conclusion.
4:07:40>> I I read it directly in context of the
4:07:42question before and after. I don't think
4:07:44there's any
4:07:44>> that might be properly asked during
4:07:46cross-examination.
4:07:55Just one moment, your honor.
4:08:12Let me just make sure we have an answer
4:08:13to this question. So I asked you witness
4:08:16after reading that back to you are these
4:08:19um did Hashimachi seets and reje are
4:08:22these the people um who who asked you to
4:08:25write out a statement in that room
4:08:27that's my question to you
4:08:34>> I have never met
4:08:38Hashima
4:11:06If you could scroll down a little bit in
4:11:08English. Thank you.
4:11:11Witness, you start. I'm reading from a
4:11:13section where it says, "It could have
4:11:15been about 11:00 p.m. the same night we
4:11:17were arrested. Prosecutor asks what
4:11:20happened that night and the following
4:11:22day before you were released. Your
4:11:24answer that night and the following day
4:11:26the interrogations went on."
4:11:30Prosecutor, who was conducting those
4:11:32interrogations?
4:11:34Your answer, Hashimi.
4:11:37Um,
4:11:38prosecutor, anyone else? Your answer.
4:11:42Individual one assisted him, but his
4:11:44vocabulary was very bad using threats,
4:11:46but Hashim thought Hashim used the
4:11:49proper words.
4:11:51So, did the interrogations
4:11:54go on that first night and into the
4:11:56following day?
4:12:02at not or
4:12:05>> we were questioned on that night. On the
4:12:09next day, we were free, quiet, we
4:12:12rested.
4:12:14There were no problems whatsoever.
4:12:18I think we explained and clarified the
4:12:22purpose of our visit on on that night
4:12:26>> and I think the K understood our mission
4:12:31as being a humanitarian
4:12:34fair mission
4:12:37and on the next day we did not have any
4:12:40problems.
4:12:44But as you said here that Hashimi was
4:12:46the one conducting these interrogations.
4:12:49Is that right?
4:12:54>> This was not an interrogation.
4:12:57I would like you to rectify this
4:13:00although I cannot order you to do so.
4:13:03This was a conversation. These were
4:13:05conversations.
4:13:08These were normal conversations between
4:13:11leaders. I was a political leader
4:13:16>> and therefore these are conversations.
4:13:20>> Understand that's your testimony today,
4:13:22sir, but I'm using your words from 2014
4:13:25when you're the one who used the word
4:13:28interrogations. You're the one that says
4:13:30that night, sir, let me finish my
4:13:32question.
4:13:33That night and the following day, the
4:13:35interrogations went on. That's from your
4:13:38answer. And then the prosecutor says who
4:13:41was conducting those interrogations
4:13:43using your word and your answer is
4:13:45Hashimachi. So I understand that you
4:13:48have a different word today but I'm
4:13:50asking you from your testimony then did
4:13:53Hashimachi conduct the interrogations?
4:14:02I have a serious answer today
4:14:05again
4:14:07and for the eenth time
4:14:10I am I am telling the truth
4:14:16on the day when I came back from the
4:14:18mountains I said the truth in Bristina
4:14:21and I'm saying the truth today in
4:14:24between these two moments have
4:14:27exaggerated things. I have changed
4:14:30things.
4:14:32The truth
4:14:34is what I said two hour on that very day
4:14:38two hours after when I came back to
4:14:41Christina. Check the interview on voice
4:14:45of America and check the record of the
4:14:48meeting of the presidency of the LDK.
4:14:51Everything else is exaggeration.
4:14:57What? Um I want to ask you some
4:14:59questions about um the uh President
4:15:03Reggoa and the conditions in Kosovo
4:15:05between institutions. Um did the KLA
4:15:08recognize President Reggova at the time
4:15:11as far as you understood?
4:15:17Look
4:15:22>> now we can't talk in general terms about
4:15:25the ka there were individuals who did
4:15:28not recognize him individuals who were
4:15:31irritated because we were living normal
4:15:34life in Christina
4:15:36the ka instead was uh facing the fourth
4:15:41or fifth army in Europe with which had
4:15:45heavy weaponry,
4:15:47a fascist regime. So they were right to
4:15:51be irritated against us and President
4:15:53Roa,
4:15:56but
4:15:58we never saw anything
4:16:02that would threaten us in Christina.
4:16:07Some individuals did not agree with
4:16:10President Roa at times. We ourselves
4:16:13didn't fully agree with him
4:16:18>> agreement. It was about whether or not
4:16:20the KLA recognized President Regova, his
4:16:23authority. And um you said that some
4:16:26individuals did not. So was Hashimi one
4:16:29of those individuals?
4:16:33>> Yeah. No,
4:16:40>> when we went to Rambu two, three or four
4:16:43months after the event we're referring
4:16:45to,
4:16:47the closest
4:16:50cooperation
4:16:52between, thanks to the closest
4:16:54cooperation between Ruggova and
4:16:56President Thi, we reached that
4:16:58historical agreement. President Regova
4:17:01played his own role in his capacity as a
4:17:04president and President Thi
4:17:08um played his role as an irreplaceable
4:17:12and very important leader.
4:17:16>> Did the Ka recognize the authority of
4:17:19the Kosovo Parliament?
4:17:24>> Objection calls for
4:17:26>> speculation. Lack of foundation.
4:17:30Um the
4:17:40>> objection sustained.
4:17:49witness, you testified this morning when
4:17:51you were talking about your background
4:17:53and this is um real time transcript page
4:17:5616 lines 17 to 19. In 1998, we also held
4:18:00some election which in a way was
4:18:03controversial but we wanted to have an
4:18:06address where internationals came to
4:18:08Kosovo to negotiate. What did you mean
4:18:10by the election in 1998 was
4:18:12controversial?
4:18:26Look, one cannot call them Kosovo
4:18:31elections if they're not held throughout
4:18:33the territory of Kosovo. There were
4:18:36several municipalities including the
4:18:40most endangered area Dissa region
4:18:45which was not able to organize and hold
4:18:48elections in that part of Kosovo because
4:18:50of the pressure from the terrorist
4:18:53certain forces.
4:18:55What we said is that we held these
4:18:58elections in order for the delegations
4:19:00from NATO, Europe, America to have an
4:19:03address where they would go to and find
4:19:06somebody to talk to.
4:19:09This was the
4:19:11purpose and the stance because that
4:19:13parliament that resulted from those
4:19:15elections was completely in
4:19:17non-existent. It didn't adopt laws or
4:19:21any uh didn't have any legislative
4:19:23functions.
4:19:28And um did person number one um tell you
4:19:33what he thought about the Kosovo
4:19:35parliament.
4:19:44>> You're asking me very tough questions
4:19:47about this person number one and but
4:19:49you're right and I respect you because
4:19:52you're doing your job. I respect
4:19:54everyone in this courtroom.
4:19:58>> Now,
4:20:04person number one
4:20:07did not know. I think he didn't even
4:20:10know himself, let alone the Cos of
4:20:12Parliament.
4:20:14Please don't put me on the spot. He's
4:20:17what he is.
4:20:20And don't please create additional
4:20:24problems to me and my family because
4:20:26I've already had a
4:20:31hard times and I went through an ordeal
4:20:34and there's no person in Europe who's
4:20:36gone through what I've gone through the
4:20:39last 25 years.
4:20:48Let me ask
4:20:50it a different way. Was do you have any
4:20:53interactions with any members of the KLA
4:20:57where they expressed an opinion that
4:20:59they didn't recognize the parliament of
4:21:01Kosovo in 1998?
4:21:07I already said that there were
4:21:10individuals including within the Kerala
4:21:12who did not recognize the official
4:21:16institutions in Bristina. There were
4:21:18individuals also within the political
4:21:20parties in Kosovo
4:21:23who spread negative propaganda did not
4:21:27recognize the institutions and as a as a
4:21:31result of this propaganda we are here
4:21:34today which we do not deserve and we
4:21:38should not be here.
4:21:41Did there come a point after um the
4:21:44questioning took place where you had um
4:21:46an interaction with a person named Tahir
4:21:48Descu
4:21:51>> Paul?
4:21:52>> Yes, I remember
4:21:56>> your conversation with Hashimi.
4:22:03>> This
4:22:05took took place. I'm not sure if it was
4:22:09shortly before or shortly after. I
4:22:12really don't know for sure. I don't want
4:22:15to speculate. I do know that he came
4:22:18into the classroom,
4:22:20that classroom where there were beds
4:22:25and I also knew I disco from
4:22:30>> and uh describe what he was wearing when
4:22:33he came in to the classroom.
4:22:36I got in.
4:22:40>> He was a proper soldier
4:22:44wearing a uniform.
4:22:46>> He entered the classroom, but when I saw
4:22:51it was him, I was surprised because I
4:22:53didn't know he was there.
4:22:56>> You said that he was in a uniform. Did
4:22:58he have a gun in his hand?
4:23:03Yes, he had an automatic weapon in his
4:23:06hands
4:23:09because
4:23:11those who didn't really fight, they
4:23:14either took photographs holding weapons
4:23:17or so they did this to promote
4:23:20themselves. That was one of those.
4:23:25And did he ask to speak with you um
4:23:28privately or or go to a corner in the
4:23:30classroom?
4:23:35Before the war,
4:23:37my brother had a restaurant in Pristina
4:23:42and for a time and to my recollection
4:23:46now he's passed away Tahir often used to
4:23:49come to my brother's restaurant and we
4:23:52never let him pay because he was in a
4:23:55difficult economic situation
4:23:59because we are very
4:24:02we have great solidarity in Kosova.
4:24:05whoever uh could solidarize with others.
4:24:09When he saw me, he came directly to me
4:24:12to the bed where I was uh sitting and
4:24:16talked with me.
4:24:19>> And what did he tell you?
4:24:28If he were alive,
4:24:30I wouldn't care to speak ill of him. But
4:24:35if you speak ill of somebody who is
4:24:36dead, that's not good.
4:24:39And we have a saying that you should
4:24:42speak only good words about someone who
4:24:45is dead. or I
4:24:48>> but
4:24:50he was not a credible person
4:24:54and I didn't take him seriously.
4:24:58>> Well, can you tell us what he said
4:25:00before you tell us whether you took it
4:25:02seriously or not? Why don't you tell us
4:25:04what he said to you?
4:25:13I was sure that because I knew him from
4:25:16Christina that he was under the
4:25:18influence of alcohol. He has done some
4:25:21very bad things to Kle
4:25:25because you cannot drink and also fight.
4:25:32My question though is what did he say to
4:25:35you in that classroom? What did he say
4:25:37to you?
4:25:39>> I I Dr. Friumu
4:25:42>> he wanted to scare me
4:25:45and he said to tonight you are going to
4:25:48get killed
4:25:51and I'm sorry for you. He said don't
4:25:54worry. I said to him don't worry nobody
4:25:57will kill me. and and I didn't take what
4:26:00he said seriously.
4:26:02My colleague said, "What did he tell
4:26:04you?" And I said, "Nothing." I didn't
4:26:07want to create panic because I knew I
4:26:11des
4:26:16we just wanted to return to pristine and
4:26:21not encounter any Serbian forces but not
4:26:25that we would have any problems with Ka
4:26:28and we didn't have after that time the
4:26:32KA all always supported us
4:26:36>> if we can go to um 034263
4:26:42at the bottom
4:26:44in the English
4:26:47and 034280
4:26:49at the bottom in the Albanian.
4:27:05So you're describing
4:27:08Tahirescu coming into the room and in
4:27:11the middle of that paragraph
4:27:14you describe there were tears in his
4:27:16eyes. He said that the HQ had passed a
4:27:21decision.
4:27:23He said that three of you are going to
4:27:25be shot and killed tonight. I asked him
4:27:28who. He said you
4:27:33mediardi and agim kresnichi
4:27:39>> sir
4:27:40>> let me just ask a question. No, I say
4:27:42okay. Sorry. Sorry.
4:27:43>> That's okay. Let me just ask a question
4:27:45now that I've read that to you. So, is
4:27:47that the conversation that um Tahir
4:27:50Dusku told you that HQ had passed a
4:27:53decision and that it wasn't just you? It
4:27:56was three of you, yourself, Mediardi,
4:27:58and Aim Krnichi who were to be shot and
4:28:01killed.
4:28:06such a come
4:28:08>> first I don't think that the
4:28:11headquarters the staff was in that
4:28:13school it was a concoction lie
4:28:18of taheres
4:28:23were not that I would have given you a
4:28:27very clear qualification as to who is
4:28:29but I want to spare him being that
4:28:34if he had tears tears in his eyes that
4:28:37was because of the raki the drink
4:28:41and someone who drinks can say anything
4:28:45on in the name of this or that but that
4:28:47is not true from that conversation with
4:28:52him we didn't
4:28:54nothing happened we were not worried
4:28:57nobody came to knock on our door
4:29:00so it's a fabrication on his heart.
4:29:06>> When he said this to you, you answered
4:29:09him by saying that you would stand in
4:29:13front of your friends. You didn't say,
4:29:16"I don't believe you. Go away." You
4:29:18said, "And on the B at the end of that
4:29:19same paragraph,
4:29:22I asked him to write with that pen the
4:29:24treason committed in Kosovo because Gurj
4:29:26is a man of Kosovo. If you kill Jurj, it
4:29:29means you kill the future of Kosovo." I
4:29:32insisted not to kill my other friends
4:29:35but to kill only me because I was the
4:29:38leader of that group and I wanted to
4:29:40have as few victims as possible. So you
4:29:44didn't say I didn't I told him because I
4:29:45didn't believe him. You said you wanted
4:29:47as few victims as possible.
4:29:50So you did believe him that night,
4:29:52didn't you?
4:30:00>> Yeah. Yeah.
4:30:02>> No, no, I did not.
4:30:04But I'm saying here now, if I were
4:30:09heading a group and let's say we
4:30:13encountered Serbian forces, I would have
4:30:16told them, kill me, but not my friends.
4:30:19That's part of my DNA and my family.
4:30:23It's better to sacrifice one person if
4:30:27that is required rather than all. But it
4:30:33because it was tired school who told
4:30:36this. I took it with distrust.
4:30:42We are alive as you see. But nobody came
4:30:47to our door even to knock.
4:30:51So that was his fabrication.
4:30:54Maybe I thought that they had decided to
4:30:58do that and I said, "Then kill me and
4:31:00let my friends go return to Christina."
4:31:05But then I realized it was something
4:31:08made up by him. Why he did that, I don't
4:31:12know. He is not alive.
4:31:14But it had got nothing to do with the
4:31:18KLA general stuff. Was
4:31:23that your understanding of what
4:31:24headquarters mean? Is that that's
4:31:26another word for the KLA general staff.
4:31:40>> I didn't know the people of the G of the
4:31:44staff. I didn't know where it was based
4:31:47or what it thought.
4:31:49Only one thing I know that it is the
4:31:52stuff that brought Kosovo liberation.
4:31:58Had that stuff or the ka
4:32:02not been in existence,
4:32:06I wouldn't be here. Kosovo would be
4:32:08deprived of Albania and Kosova would no
4:32:11longer exist.
4:32:15If we look um in that same paragraph or
4:32:27uh towards the bottom of the page there,
4:32:28if you can just scroll up a little bit
4:32:31on the English.
4:32:33Thank you.
4:32:36At the end of that um paragraph, you
4:32:39also say
4:32:41that after he left, after Tahiresu left,
4:32:44the remaining members of the group of 13
4:32:46approached me and asked what he had
4:32:49said. They asked what Taheresu had said
4:32:51to you. You said in order to calm people
4:32:54down, I could not tell them three I'm
4:32:59sorry, let me start again. I could not
4:33:00tell them
4:33:02three were going to get killed that
4:33:04night. I told them all was going to be
4:33:06okay and not to worry. As the leader of
4:33:09the group, I was forced to take
4:33:11responsibility and act as a leader of
4:33:14that group. So again,
4:33:18you didn't say you didn't believe them.
4:33:21You actually were focused on calming
4:33:23down the other delegates and not
4:33:25worrying them because you were going to
4:33:27take responsibility and stand in front
4:33:29of them. Is that right,
4:33:36Knowing the historic mission
4:33:39that of liber liberation by the ka.
4:33:45knowing the
4:33:50affected the suspicious credibility of
4:33:54DESU and believing
4:33:57on the clean
4:34:00record if you like of all the members of
4:34:02the delegation from Bristino were
4:34:05willing to get killed for Kosovo but by
4:34:08the Serbs. I thought it like I took what
4:34:12his horse like I was having a express
4:34:15coffee
4:34:17in but however not to create panic
4:34:22I told them don't worry there there are
4:34:27good news tomorrow we are returning to
4:34:29Christina
4:34:33>> I'd ask the court if we can bring up
4:34:35what I believe is in evidence as P 001
4:34:40158 and it's corresponding P00158-
4:35:09can zoom in in the Albanian on the right
4:35:10>> microphone please
4:35:13>> zoom in in the Albanian on the right
4:35:14side of the screen
4:35:18>> and in the English if we can go
4:35:21to page two
4:35:25of the PDF I believe the ERN at the
4:35:27bottom is 04385
4:35:35and in the Albanian it's the opposite
4:35:36side of the document if you can scroll
4:35:38roll over to the
4:35:41right. Thank you,
4:35:50sir. Do you see that where there is a
4:35:55press release of the military police
4:35:57directorate of the Kosovo Liberation
4:35:59Army from 23 September 1998?
4:36:05By the way, is that the day that you
4:36:07gave that press conference? Is that the
4:36:08day that you got back to Christina
4:36:1123rd of September?
4:36:19>> I'm not sure whether it was 22nd or
4:36:2223rd, one of the two.
4:36:28And uh the title of that is
4:36:30investigations continue on three
4:36:33suspicious persons.
4:36:35And uh it reads, "Based on information
4:36:38from the KLA intelligence service, on 20
4:36:41September 1998,
4:36:44at about 12:15, the KLA military police
4:36:47arrested 13 syndicicalists,
4:36:51quote, institutionalist party
4:36:53representatives in the village of
4:36:55Cherez, Draanicha for their divisive
4:36:58partisan, schismatic institutionalist,
4:37:01anti-liberation,
4:37:03war propaganda for handing over weapons
4:37:06and for a temporary solution of Kosovo's
4:37:10political status within Serbia that they
4:37:14had been conducting on the ground.
4:37:17After conducting investigations in
4:37:19harmony with the customs of war and the
4:37:22KLA military police's regulations of
4:37:26work, these representatives were
4:37:29released from their arrest on 23
4:37:32September 1998. So it says you were
4:37:35released that day. Whereas
4:37:38even though Juredi,
4:37:41president of the Kosovo Liberal Party
4:37:44and self-appointed vice president of the
4:37:46Kosovo Parliament
4:37:48and Agim Kresnichi and Medi Bardi,
4:37:52senior functionaries of the LDK were
4:37:55released.
4:37:57investigative procedures will continue
4:37:59against them until a decision is made by
4:38:03the competent organs of the KLA.
4:38:08Those three names, those are the same
4:38:10three names of people that Tahir Descu
4:38:14came and told you that HQ had said were
4:38:17going to be shot and killed. Is that
4:38:19right?
4:38:28I don't know who has signed that.
4:38:32And the unsigned document
4:38:35is part of propaganda,
4:38:37media propaganda.
4:38:40>> Uh
4:38:42>> sir, that is not my question. My
4:38:44question is
4:38:46>> is it the same three individuals
4:38:49>> that t your desk you set? Let me just
4:38:51finish my question again sir. Is it the
4:38:54same three individuals that Tahiru
4:38:57told you that HQ had decided would be
4:39:00killed?
4:39:07>> If we were to quote
4:39:11and have him speak on behalf of the
4:39:14staff, it's like
4:39:16having VHS speak on behalf of the KA.
4:39:24So, is that a yes that it's the same
4:39:26three members or a no?
4:39:32>> The names are the same. We couldn't
4:39:35change the names.
4:39:38They called me J, which in English is
4:39:41George. That's me. You cannot change and
4:39:44I don't want to I don't wish to change
4:39:47my name.
4:39:51How long were you detained for the
4:39:53group?
4:39:59>> Two days, 48 hours.
4:40:04>> Detained but not arrested.
4:40:09And after the conversation we had with
4:40:13Hashimi,
4:40:14everything changed and we didn't have
4:40:17any problems. Then pseudo patriots from
4:40:22diaspora
4:40:23sitting at comfortable hotels and media
4:40:26and so on. They have they may have
4:40:29written what they liked but from what
4:40:32I've seen in Kosovo regarding the
4:40:35weapons I would have given them
4:40:41uh
4:40:42nuclear weapons to use because the Serbs
4:40:46violated our women, killed our children
4:40:49and torch our country.
4:40:53Who was in charge of your detention from
4:40:55your arrest to questioning or from the
4:40:57beginning to the questioning?
4:41:06>> You you come to good desire as a
4:41:09>> I have repeated it even during the days
4:41:13we discussed together. I told you
4:41:19what my opinion was about the most
4:41:23important person there who made
4:41:25decisions.
4:41:27If we can go back to 034236
4:41:30to 034287
4:41:37and specifically
4:41:40in the English
4:41:42at 034262
4:41:47and in the Albanian the bottom of
4:41:49034280.
4:41:51Zero.
4:42:28If we can just go up a little bit on the
4:42:30English. Oh, I'm sorry. Go up towards
4:42:32the top. Thank you. Okay.
4:42:41You say uh the prosecutor asks you who
4:42:44is they. You say Hashim at all times was
4:42:47the leader of that group. Sabagetti was
4:42:51there as well. He kept coming in and
4:42:53out. The prosecutor then asks, "When you
4:42:56say Hashim was the leader, what do you
4:42:58mean?"
4:43:00Your answer, "He was the leader for the
4:43:02whole event."
4:43:04Prosecutor asks you, "Do you mean from
4:43:06your arrest to the questioning?" Your
4:43:10answer, yes. Since I did not know them,
4:43:13I got to know who was the authority
4:43:16there because he was the one deciding,
4:43:19interrogating us all the time. He wanted
4:43:22to discredit us, thinking that we would
4:43:24get scared because of what was
4:43:26happening.
4:43:30So, was Hashimi the leader of this whole
4:43:33event in your words?
4:43:40Go. This
4:43:41>> I explained to you several times.
4:43:45You are turning me back asking me the
4:43:48same question. Of course, it's your
4:43:50right. I met Hashib Tachi in Bates two
4:43:55hours after we arrived there.
4:44:01And the statements I have given
4:44:06because of my discharge from the
4:44:09position of deputy minister, my
4:44:12emotional state and a lot of attacks
4:44:16against me by other people. I thought
4:44:20that it behind them was Hashimachi but
4:44:24later I realized that this was done by
4:44:27other people to discredit Hashimi and me
4:44:32and
4:44:34these are my arguments and you can prove
4:44:37them. I saw Hashimi only 2 hours after
4:44:42we arrived in Bates and I can say in
4:44:46full min uh moral penal responsibility
4:44:50that it was
4:44:53a good thing that I was sharing the
4:44:56delegation and that President was there.
4:45:03But you didn't just say that the that
4:45:05Hashimi was at least one of the people
4:45:08in leadership of this whole event. You
4:45:11said it back in two not you didn't just
4:45:13say it after your discharge from uh
4:45:16being a deputy minister. You said it
4:45:18back in 2001 to UNMIC. Um you said that
4:45:22Hashimi Sabagetsi and Ref Salimi were uh
4:45:26the main leaders of this and that's 03
4:45:304135 to 034141
4:45:35read 2 um in the middle of the page on
4:45:39034140.
4:45:43And you also said that the individuals
4:45:47that ordered the illegal detention and
4:45:50beating of yourself and other victims
4:45:52were Hashimachi Reepsimi and Sabagetti.
4:45:56And that's 034126
4:45:59to 034127.
4:46:02And that's at the bottom of the first
4:46:04page to the top of the second page in
4:46:06both languages. So you didn't just say
4:46:08it after your discharge, you said it all
4:46:10the way back in 2001. Is that right?
4:46:19>> From 2001 and after the war,
4:46:23I was misinformed.
4:46:27I
4:46:29heard misinformation
4:46:31regarding
4:46:33various important Ka figures.
4:46:37Now if a lie is repeated over and over
4:46:40again it you one may end up believing it
4:46:44they misled me into thinking that
4:46:48Hashimi could have allegedly been
4:46:51responsible or guilty also of our
4:46:53detention. I never heard or saw Hashimi
4:46:56giving an order.
4:46:59Now, this is in 2001,
4:47:03and you seem to have forgotten. I don't
4:47:06understand
4:47:08the context we're dealing with. And
4:47:11we're rearring family members and their
4:47:14burned bodies. How can one in such
4:47:17circumstances give credible and reliable
4:47:20uh statements? You're not taking into
4:47:22account this.
4:47:25>> When did your detention come to an end?
4:47:3248 hours later.
4:47:36>> No, sorry. You're not giving me time to
4:47:39explain. On the next day of the second
4:47:42night, a
4:47:46an offensive launched by the Serbian
4:47:48forces was progressing towards the
4:47:50school.
4:47:52Now, somebody came into the classroom.
4:47:55I'm not sure whether it was Hashimi or
4:47:57somebody else.
4:48:00In any event, I met with Hashimi in the
4:48:03courtyard who and he said, "We need to
4:48:06leave as soon as possible because the
4:48:08Serbian forces have attacked the area
4:48:11and the school was shelled on that very
4:48:14evening.
4:48:15The Serbian forces wanted to catch us
4:48:19alive, kill us, and blame the Ka for
4:48:24that
4:48:26just like they did in the Panda case
4:48:30cafe
4:48:32when they tried to discredit and blame
4:48:34the KLA.
4:48:37So, and it is because of this these
4:48:40process of discrediting and blaming
4:48:43others that we are here today.
4:48:48I have never in my life witnessed,
4:48:52heard, or seen a case where victims are
4:48:55put on trial.
4:49:00All right. So you're saying your
4:49:02testimony now is that you're not sure
4:49:04who came into the classroom, but you saw
4:49:08Hashimachi in the courtyard. Is that
4:49:10what you're saying now?
4:49:22viewing this as if this event happened
4:49:25today and if I'm supposed to have all
4:49:27this recorded in my mind. This happened
4:49:2925 years ago at a time when I was
4:49:33collecting
4:49:36body parts of my family members of our
4:49:38loved ones and to this day we still have
4:49:41over 1,700
4:49:44disappeared
4:49:47and you're expecting us to be flexible,
4:49:49accurate, precise, distant. This is
4:49:52impossible. I'm a human being as well.
4:49:55Um you might might think certain things
4:49:59about Albanians, but I'm a human being.
4:50:02I don't know if Hashimi came to the
4:50:04doorstep or came inside or said stand up
4:50:07and leave. But what I do know is Hashimi
4:50:11wanted to protect and save us because he
4:50:13didn't want us to be killed by Serbs and
4:50:17have the Ka blamed and blame the Ka for
4:50:20that. It this is the answers of it. I
4:50:24cannot know and nobody can know the
4:50:27exact time minute after minute how it
4:50:30happened and this and that because there
4:50:32were
4:50:34armored
4:50:35military vehicles coming towards us.
4:50:37There were tanks shelling us and I I'm
4:50:40grateful to them because they saved us.
4:50:57Sir, do you recall when we met at the
4:51:00end of last week that you actually made
4:51:02a clarification to one of your
4:51:04statements about this very part of what
4:51:07happened? And this is at uh the
4:51:10preparation note. The specific page is
4:51:12116776
4:51:15paragraph 31.
4:51:18And you specifically said as a
4:51:20correction to make sure that your
4:51:21statement was clear and it was read back
4:51:23to you and you confirmed it that Hashimi
4:51:27came into the classroom and he was very
4:51:30concerned.
4:51:32That told you get
4:51:35>> Yes. This is what I'm explaining.
4:51:40>> But you're not letting me speak either.
4:51:44>> Let you speak. Let me just finish my
4:51:46question.
4:51:47I'm reading back to you what you said as
4:51:49your clarification.
4:51:51You said that Hashimi came to the
4:51:53classroom and he was very concerned.
4:51:56That then told you to get up and get
4:51:58ready. We need to get moving because the
4:52:01Serbs are coming. You didn't say
4:52:04anything about the courtyard and that
4:52:06you may have run into him there. You
4:52:08told you you said specifically that he
4:52:11is the one that came in and told you all
4:52:14to get up and to leave to get ready to
4:52:16leave.
4:52:18>> It's
4:52:20Yes. Can I ask you now how's that
4:52:24important if he was one meter outside
4:52:28the classroom by the doorstep or 10 cm
4:52:32inside? The act is important.
4:52:35>> Answer questions.
4:52:39Okay, your nani,
4:52:43>> I understand. I will do so. Your honor,
4:52:49>> in the course of um
4:52:53being released and being told to get up
4:52:55and get ready, were you um were you
4:52:58released directly from the schoolhouse
4:53:00in Bita or did you go somewhere else?
4:53:04Yo, can we
4:53:06>> now we got into vehicles,
4:53:09civilians were moving in tractors,
4:53:15trailers, everybody was leaving the area
4:53:19to move away from the Serbian offensive.
4:53:23Then we reached the village of Chz
4:53:29where we were told you know about this
4:53:32in in investigations and things and
4:53:35everything was fine. We were all
4:53:38everything was in order and now we were
4:53:40just uh considering options how to get
4:53:42back to Pina.
4:53:47If we can go to 034236
4:53:51uh I'm sorry the specific page is uh
4:53:54034265
4:53:56in English and the middle of 034282
4:54:00in Albanian
4:54:17So you were asked um whether you saw
4:54:20some of uh the persons mentioned again
4:54:24but your part of your answer you start
4:54:26by saying yes they were in the column
4:54:29with us but we went in different
4:54:31vehicles. They did not actually release
4:54:34us until that evening when we were
4:54:36brought back to Cherz.
4:54:38So it says they first talked to each
4:54:40other and I'm sorry they talked to each
4:54:43other then first took us to a house on
4:54:47the outskirts of Chz.
4:54:49So were you put in vehicles and driven
4:54:52back to Chz from Bita with um with
4:54:56Hashimi?
4:55:00>> This was not in the evening because
4:55:05are close to one another. It's a short
4:55:08distance.
4:55:09I cannot be sure, but I think it's
4:55:11between four and five kilometers.
4:55:17>> We arrived in Chirz sometime in the
4:55:20morning hours.
4:55:24>> Vehicle when you were driven in the
4:55:26vehicle. Um, do you recall any conver?
4:55:29Well, first of all, who was who was
4:55:30driving the vehicle?
4:55:32>> Uh, look,
4:55:35>> I didn't know the drivers.
4:55:38I never I had never seen the driver
4:55:51and finally if you
4:55:53>> sorry are you referring to the travel
4:55:56from B to Chiraz I don't know who was
4:55:59the driver so that we can be precise
4:56:03>> thank you for that clarification
4:56:07Then when you Um,
5:00:18Sabagetti was the driver and Vi Bichuchi
5:00:21and I were in the back seat. And then
5:00:24I'm going to skip just so I don't have
5:00:25to read. We only have three minutes
5:00:26left. Then in the in the uh middle of
5:00:30that paragraph where I just uh asked you
5:00:32about the news on the radio, you say
5:00:35they switched on the radio to listen to
5:00:37the news and we heard that there that
5:00:40the minister of defense Amed Kresnichi
5:00:43was assassinated in Tyrana. Hashim and
5:00:46Sabat were very pleased. They were
5:00:48enthusiastic actually. They talked to
5:00:51each other. We could not understand what
5:00:54they said but they were very happy.
5:00:57Do you remember that in the car ride?
5:01:04>> I don't remember. I don't think it
5:01:06happened.
5:01:10>> They might have talked to one another. I
5:01:13don't know the content of that
5:01:14conversation.
5:01:18>> Is you don't know the content of the
5:01:19conversation between Hashimachi and
5:01:21Sabikets?
5:01:22>> No.
5:01:25>> No. Absolutely not.
5:01:29>> And to tell the truth, I was
5:01:33focused on my thoughts and on how to get
5:01:36back to pristine, how to get back to my
5:01:38family. I was not listening to what they
5:01:40were saying.
5:01:42They were part of the war. We were part
5:01:46of the politics. We were sitting in the
5:01:48back. They were in front. I don't
5:01:50remember a single word of their
5:01:52conversation.
5:01:55conversation that Sabit Gatsy had with
5:01:57you where he told you that not 13 but 12
5:02:02of you would be going back to Christina
5:02:05and that he said Aim Kresnichi would not
5:02:08actually that that he would be killed.
5:02:11Do you recall that Sabaki saying that?
5:02:16>> No.
5:02:20>> Are you planning on destroying me and my
5:02:23family as a court?
5:02:26>> Are you planning on?
5:02:30>> Yes. Yes.
5:02:35Now we are on a closed session now.
5:02:38I want a closed I want to be in a closed
5:02:40session now
5:02:44>> to about what
5:02:48do
5:02:49>> because I do not want to answer publicly
5:02:54about these when to questions involving
5:02:58these persons. I actually asked for this
5:03:01uh for my testimony to be given in
5:03:03private session and you deny this
5:03:05request to session temporarily.
5:03:11>> I'm sorry.
5:03:24>> Your honors are in private session.
5:03:26>> All right, witness. You are in private
5:03:28session now. Now listen to the question
5:03:29and answer it directly. Do not add
5:03:32>> other.
5:03:38Thank you, your honor.
5:08:50It'll be at least the five um that we
5:08:52have reserved
5:08:54>> from
5:08:55>> we have no change from our estimate. I
5:08:56think we have a half an hour estimated
5:08:58and we have no change.
5:08:59>> Okay.
5:09:00>> Uh Mr. President, we have three
5:09:01estimated. I would hope to cut that
5:09:03down, but we'll see how it goes with the
5:09:05witness.
5:09:06>> Thank you.
5:09:06>> Thank you,
5:09:06>> Mr. Ellis. Uh your honors uh we have 1
5:09:09hour estimated. I I think it's much more
5:09:11likely to be of the order of half an
5:09:13hour.
5:09:13>> Okay. Thank you very much.
5:09:14>> Also half an hour for the other uh for
5:09:16the next witness after that. Okay.
5:09:18>> I think.
5:09:20>> All right. Then we are adjourned until
5:09:229:00 a.m. tomorrow.
5:09:25>> Rise.

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