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03 Taking Mountains: A Christian Faith Podcast || Can We Trust The Bible? — Transcript

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0:00How do I trust the Bible? Nobody's
0:02really going to come to the Bible
0:03immediately and trust everything that it
0:05[music] says. I still don't believe
0:06everything the Bible says.
0:08I want to know about those.
0:10>> [laughter]
0:11>> Those are And the reason why I say that
0:13is The reason why I say that is because
0:15Jesus didn't come to make us Christians.
0:17>> Yeah. He was Jewish. Yeah. And [music]
0:19when God made Adam and Eve, he didn't
0:21make them Christians. Mhm.
0:23>> He made them humans.
0:24>> Yeah. Well, we can only be human if
0:26we're engaged with the creator. [music]
0:28Because when we're disengaged with the
0:29creator, immediately we go to our lower
0:32parts of ourselves, [music] the animal
0:34side.
0:34>> Yeah. Human beings are interesting
0:36creature because we are a mix of divine
0:38and animal.
0:39>> Mhm. Everybody is [music] a theologian.
0:41The question is, are we a good
0:42theologian? In order to be good
0:44theologians, we've got to be in line
0:46with the scriptures.
0:47>> Mhm.
0:48Welcome back to the podcast. I got
0:50Pastor Terry with me, one of the
0:52absolute smartest people I know. And uh
0:55man, uh maybe one of the coolest parts
0:57about Terry is his desire to learn
1:00consistently. Um I remember growing up
1:04randomly and his kids would babysit me.
1:07And I mean we kind of grew up as and in
1:09church and
1:10I think for since I can remember, he's
1:12been learning more about the Bible,
1:14learning more about Jesus for 40 plus
1:16years, just a journey of
1:19just learning what God has and so we got
1:20Terry with us and we're going to dig
1:22into the Bible, why it's valuable, how
1:24to dig into it, how to start it. I think
1:26so many of us today are nervous about
1:29how to study it, how to read the Bible.
1:31Um it's just sometimes overwhelming.
1:34And uh so let's talk about that, how to
1:37make it less overwhelming. You know, how
1:39can I approach it? How can I process it?
1:42Is it for me? Is it just for preachers
1:44and pastors and people with degrees? And
1:48uh let's just let's kind of jump into
1:50that. How
1:51how do you how do you approach the
1:52Bible? Or maybe maybe I should start
1:54with how did you start approaching the
1:56Bible? Yeah.
1:58I was 14 years old and
2:01I would walk by my dad's bedroom and see
2:04him reading the Bible.
2:05And we'd been going to church and uh he
2:08would always say to us kids, you need to
2:09read your Bibles. Well, I I uh started
2:12to notice he was reading his Bible and I
2:15thought, I should start doing that.
2:16>> Yeah. So at 14, all we had was the old
2:19King James version. I am talking really
2:21old. I mean the language is here I'm 14
2:23years old and I'm trying to sort through
2:25all this old King James English, but
2:27uh by the time I was 18, I'd read
2:29through the Bible, entire Bible six
2:31times. No way.
2:33>> And um after reading through a couple of
2:35times, I started to
2:37be able to figure out how to interpret
2:39the old English just because I got
2:41accustomed to
2:42>> Mhm. reading it. It's like reading any
2:44book, you know, the more you read
2:45something, the more familiar you get
2:48with the language, the author, where
2:49they're going, the style, what they're
2:51trying to accomplish. And so for me and
2:54just starting to read the Bible, it
2:56started to make sense.
2:57>> Mhm. I could start connecting the dots.
2:59And now I think part of it is because
3:02God called me to do this. Yeah. So
3:05everyone's experience is going to be
3:06different. But just like with anything,
3:08any book, any movie, the more you watch
3:11it, the more you see things that you
3:12didn't see before.
3:13>> Yeah. And but it's always with this
3:16motivation that this is God talking to
3:18me. This is what God has to say to me
3:21about how to live life.
3:22>> Yeah. And
3:24I you know, when you when you listen to
3:26the news and you listen to all these
3:28ideas that are thrown out there, it's
3:30like, wow, it's it's just messing people
3:32up. What
3:34more important book is there than the
3:36Bible then to really teach us how to
3:38live?
3:38>> Yeah. And the Bible has shown itself to
3:40be true centuries after centuries. It's
3:43outlasted. It's it's
3:46it's gone way beyond any other books.
3:48>> Mhm. Um it has proven itself to be true.
3:51When people follow it, it makes life
3:54better. Yeah.
3:55>> It just does.
3:56And so that was my experience even from
3:58the time I was 14. Then when I was 16, I
4:01got filled with the Holy Spirit and I
4:03just knew from that point on, I had to
4:05be in ministry. There's there was just
4:07no other option for me.
4:09At that time, I there was only three
4:11options for ministry.
4:13Pastor your own church, be a missionary
4:16or a traveling evangelist. Okay.
4:18[laughter]
4:18>> That was the only three models that were
4:20out there for ministry at the time. So
4:22in my mind, I ruled out two of them. I
4:24knew I didn't want to be a missionary
4:26>> Yeah. and I didn't want to travel. So
4:28that left pastoring my own church.
4:30>> Yeah. So it was that idea then that
4:34motivated me in in um getting involved
4:36in in the church that I was at.
4:37>> Mhm. I I served everywhere I could find.
4:40Any opportunities that were there, I
4:41wanted to be involved.
4:42>> Mhm. Um and then I went to Bible school
4:45with the thought in mind, I'm going to
4:47start my own church one day.
4:49Um and so when I went through Bible
4:51school, that's where I met your dad,
4:53Casey and um and then we I graduated and
4:56then we my wife and I went out to
4:57Madison, Wisconsin, worked in there for
4:59four and a half years in a church.
5:01Always with the mindset, okay, how's
5:03this going to help me plant my own
5:04church?
5:04>> Mhm. So then we were in touch with Casey
5:07and Wendy and Casey invited us to come
5:09out and see what they were doing in
5:10Seattle. So we came out, saw what was
5:13happening. We were really fired up and
5:14when we were flying back to Madison,
5:16both Lorelei and I knew our next step
5:18was to move out to Seattle. No way. And
5:20uh so three months later, we packed up
5:23everything, uh three and a half year old
5:26boy, year year old daughter and jumped
5:30in a big U-Haul truck, all four of us in
5:32the cab
5:33>> No way. and all our belongings in the
5:35truck.
5:36Didn't didn't have a house, car or job
5:38lined up in Seattle. We just knew the
5:40next thing was to go to Seattle. Yeah.
5:43And it all worked out. But um
5:46when we got here then after
5:49oh it's several months, just
5:52I I don't know if it was God or what,
5:54but uh we were at a conference in
5:56Seattle Center, Kenneth Copeland
5:57conference, I think it was. And there
6:00was a break and so I got up to to
6:30>> [laughter]
6:55>> bathroom or whatever, but there was a
6:56lady sitting at the end of the aisle and
6:59I just thought I'd greet her and see how
7:00she's doing and how she's enjoying the
7:01>> Bible
7:02>> Yeah. and help people worship God in the
7:04good music.
7:04>> Yeah. And that's what I could do here
7:06and so that's what I've been doing ever
7:08since. Man. Yeah. It's amazing. You
7:10know, [clears throat] it's funny I'm
7:11hearing I mean I've you know, I've heard
7:13you know, your story over the years and
7:15you know, your influence in teaching
7:17here, but I never connected those dots
7:19cuz I remember growing up in church,
7:21almost feeling that same way of looking
7:22at the options of ministry
7:25and thinking, I don't fit any of the
7:27boxes that I saw. Mhm. Uh when I grew
7:30up, there was a few more options at
7:31least than missionary, traveling
7:33>> Yeah. and uh senior pastor, but I
7:35remember thinking, well, I'm not good
7:37enough to be uh a worship leader, you
7:40know, music and that lane, like I loved
7:42it, but I wasn't good enough and I knew
7:44that's
7:45I didn't I didn't have the burden on my
7:47heart to be a youth pastor forever or
7:49you know, young adult and just I just
7:52couldn't find my my spot either and it
7:53was it's fascinating that we kind of
7:55both found our spots
7:58just doing it. Mhm. Sometimes I feel
8:00like
8:01people are so apprehensive to take a
8:04step because that first step doesn't
8:06look like the perfect end goal, that
8:08they end up doing nothing, just waiting
8:09for that first perfect step to like show
8:12up. And it's like and if you just go for
8:15it, it's you know, you've heard the
8:16analogy forever. It's like God you know,
8:18gets to steer a bike that's rolling. You
8:20know, you got to you got to get it
8:21moving.
8:21>> Yeah. And once it's rolling, God can
8:23help steer it. And so many people are
8:25just waiting for that perfect
8:27opportunity. Mhm. Um but your
8:30willingness to go, I'm just going to go
8:31for it. I feel called to ministry. Mhm.
8:33Let's just see where it goes and I don't
8:34have to wait for that perfect box to
8:37show up on my doorstep. Yeah. It's like
8:39Paul, you know, in Acts 16 where the
8:41Holy Spirit well, Paul wanted to go to
8:43particular area, so he had head in that
8:44direction. Holy Spirit said, no, don't
8:46go there. So Paul said, okay, well then
8:48I'll try this one. Holy Spirit said, no,
8:50don't go there. But at least Paul was
8:51trying to do something.
8:53>> Yeah. And then the Holy Spirit could
8:54lead him from there and so yeah, I
8:55really see that that's how it worked out
8:57for us. But it's always been a part of
9:00my life to to teach the Bible. I love
9:03the Bible. I love the truth. I love the
9:07the life it offers. And now as course
9:09it's not the Bible itself, it's just
9:11it's the book, but it's Jesus and you
9:13know, the Bible speaks of Jesus.
9:14>> Mhm. But that's why to me, the Bible is
9:17so important because if I want to know
9:18Jesus, I've got to read the Bible cuz
9:21Jesus isn't living in our time.
9:24He's not here on the planet.
9:25>> Yeah.
9:25>> So the only way I'm going to get to know
9:27him is through the records that have
9:28been left
9:29>> Yeah. of him and then by the Holy Spirit
9:32of course, having that internal
9:33knowledge, but uh I can't reach out and
9:36touch him. I can't watch what he's
9:37doing, Yeah.
9:38>> but I can if I'm reading the Bible. And
9:41I can be in contact then with God
9:42himself and what he wants from me and
9:45what what he's what kind of life he's
9:47laid out for us. You mentioned earlier
9:50when you said you were reading that six
9:52times in those four year span that you
9:55read it because you wanted to learn
9:57about Jesus.
9:59That's a That's got to be a massive
10:01breakthrough that people are missing. I
10:03think a lot of times in in our world
10:05today, Christians almost have a guilt
10:08towards reading the Bible enough. Like I
10:10got to read enough. Yeah. How much is it
10:12that I'm supposed to read? And what am I
10:15supposed to know? As opposed to that
10:17pursuit of knowledge or the pursuit of
10:19growth or just
10:21the excitement to learn about Jesus is
10:24much more uh fulfilling and driving and
10:28motivating than a guilt or a are you
10:31better read your Bible, you know, four
10:33chapters today or else you know, you're
10:35not a good Christian. I think you Can
10:37you speak to that? How did you capture
10:39that or get that or how can you help us
10:43us get more of that? Yeah. Just getting
10:45out of that guilt of you better read,
10:47you know, a chapter a day. Yeah. I'm
10:50convinced still that the majority of
10:52people who call themselves Christian or
10:54who affiliate with a church
10:56still have this mentality that it's it's
10:59a religious duty.
11:02Um that we we just got to live good
11:04lives. We just got to be good people.
11:06>> Yeah. And and so they're very
11:07moralistic.
11:08>> Yeah. Uh I think it was the early 2000s
11:10there was a couple of sociologists,
11:12Christian sociologists that had done
11:14some studying on the millennial group, I
11:18think it was. And they from their
11:20studies, they came up with um a term
11:23called
11:24moral moralistic therapeutic deism. Wow.
11:28Is is what uh
11:30millennials or people at that time
11:32really thought Christianity was. So
11:34moralistic, in other words, you got to
11:36be a good person. That's who goes to
11:37heaven is a good person.
11:39Uh therapeutic in that God is our cosmic
11:42therapist. He He's just going to make us
11:44feel better. So you go to church to feel
11:46better.
11:47And then deism where God is distant.
11:49He's off in the distance, but he's real,
11:50but he's he's just not engaged with your
11:52life.
11:52>> Yeah. And then he's your he's your
11:54butler. So whenever you need him, you
11:56call on him. Mhm.
11:57>> And so that was the mentality and I
11:59think it's still the mentality of people
12:00today. They have a wrong concept of what
12:03our relationship with God is meant to
12:04be.
12:05>> Mhm. So we always couch it in these
12:07religious terms of obligation and duty
12:10as opposed to
12:12God created humans to be human.
12:14>> Mhm. He uh a few years ago I was through
12:17my studying in seminary that it started
12:20to stir in my life.
12:22God didn't come to make us Christians.
12:24Jesus didn't come to make us Christians.
12:26>> Yeah. He was Jewish. Yeah. Um and when
12:30you look back in Genesis 1 when God made
12:32Adam and Eve, he didn't make them
12:33Christians. Mhm. He made them humans.
12:35>> Yeah.
12:36And that's always been God's intention
12:38is to make us human.
12:39>> Yeah. Well, we can only be human if
12:42we're engaged with the creator because
12:44when we're disengaged with the creator,
12:46immediately we go to our lower parts of
12:49ourselves, the animal side.
12:51>> Yeah. Human beings are interesting
12:52creature because we are a mix of divine
12:54and animal.
12:55>> Mhm.
12:56Um
12:57So God created the animals which are
12:59pure animals. God created angels which
13:02are pure divine, but then he created
13:04humans that are a mix.
13:05>> Mhm. And so in order for us to be the
13:08proper humans that we were created to
13:09be, we've got to be in proper
13:11relationship with the creator. Yeah. And
13:13if we're not, we are going to devolve to
13:16our animal side.
13:17>> Yeah. And so for me, reading the Bible,
13:21knowing what it says, following it is
13:23not a an obligation. It's not a duty. It
13:26is the way that I learn how to be human
13:29again. Okay, wow.
13:30>> Jesus came to restore our humanity.
13:32Yeah. Um that he became human. He showed
13:35us what a human actually is meant to
13:36look like.
13:37>> Yeah. He was the Torah walking around in
13:40a human body.
13:40>> Mhm. This is how it looks to fulfill the
13:43law. Yeah. This is what it means to be
13:45human.
13:46>> Mhm. And so when we read the Bible,
13:49that's the thinking that we engage with
13:52which to me is is vital. It's amazing
13:55how
13:56humanity for all of time keeps
14:00defaulting back to works. Yeah. You
14:02know, finding the way to earn it
14:04ourself. Mhm. So, you know, the Old
14:07Testament, it's the it's the law and
14:09circumcision. You if as long as you
14:11follow all these and then Jesus comes
14:13and then all of a sudden in the New
14:14Testament you see another spring of
14:16teaching telling people, okay, we don't
14:18have to be Jewish, but you still have to
14:20follow our laws. Okay, you have to be
14:21circumcised. You have to do this.
14:22And still today when we're not telling
14:24people to be circumcised or not and to
14:26follow the Old Testament, but we are
14:27still carrying this weight of what can I
14:30do to check the box?
14:31>> Mhm. And read the Bible enough and study
14:34enough and go to church enough and um
14:37but you're just nailing it on like no
14:40the pursuit is to know Jesus and then it
14:43brings you to your your truly created
14:45self. Yeah.
14:47You know, there's a scripture 2 Timothy
14:492:15 where it says study to show
14:50yourself approved unto God.
14:52Um but recently I I started thinking,
14:56yeah, but who is Paul writing to when he
14:57said that? It was to Timothy, a
14:59spiritual leader in Ephesus.
15:01He wasn't writing this to all
15:03necessarily all the believers because um
15:07all the believers all have other
15:08occupations, other things that are
15:10taking up their time because of their
15:12call and what God has given to them.
15:13>> Yeah. Not everyone is called to spend
15:16hours a day studying the Bible. Uh-huh.
15:18Okay.
15:19I get to do that. That's a privilege.
15:21That's a
15:22I just say, God, thank you I get to do
15:24this. Yeah.
15:25>> This is I get to do this for a living.
15:26Yeah. Well, that's but but that's
15:28because God wants me to do that.
15:30>> Yeah.
15:31So I study so that I can be approved so
15:34that I can then communicate that to
15:36other people and help them learn
15:38>> Yeah. cuz they don't have the time to
15:40study that I do. Mhm. It's like and I
15:42use this analogy a lot. It's like when
15:44my car breaks down, I don't fix it. I
15:47take [laughter] it to a mechanic.
15:48>> Yes. I don't spend hours a day studying
15:51on how to fix cars.
15:53>> Mhm. That's not my deal. Yeah. Uh I
15:56should know some basics. I should know
15:57when to change the oil, if a tire's
15:59flat, how to change it. You know, if the
16:01light comes on, what does that mean? So
16:03there's some basic things I should know
16:04in handling a vehicle and it's the same
16:06thing with every believer. Every
16:08believer should know some basics that
16:10they can get on their own in reading and
16:12so forth. But I really believe that the
16:15Bible was meant to be studied and talked
16:18about in a communal Okay. aspect, not
16:22individually as much. You know, back in
16:24the first century, nobody had their own
16:25Bibles. They would have to go to an
16:28assembly to hear the word of God and
16:30then talk about it together.
16:32And I think that is has
16:34I think that's the way it's meant to be.
16:36Yeah. So, you know, when we have church
16:37services, that's one way that people
16:39come and they get taught the word of
16:40God.
16:41>> Yeah. But then we have Bible studies, we
16:43have life groups, we have all kinds of
16:45situations where people can gather
16:46together in a community setting
16:48>> Mhm. and engage with the word of God
16:50together.
16:51>> Yeah. That to me is the healthiest and
16:53most vital way of actually growing in
16:56our understanding of the scriptures.
16:57>> Yeah.
16:58It seems like it's also at least for me,
17:00it's like that's perfectly in line for
17:03my learning style. Mhm. You know what I
17:05mean? I think I think a lot of us learn,
17:07grasp things, hold on to things better
17:09when it's worked out, not just read
17:12once.
17:12>> Mhm. You know, yeah. Mhm. I'm just I
17:14don't I don't read a scripture and I got
17:17it. I'll remember that the rest of my
17:19life. Like
17:20>> know, I work on memorization and holding
17:22the you know, holding those in me. But
17:24when I'm talking about it with friends
17:26and I got a group of guys who are
17:27working through an idea for marriage or
17:29a parenting issue or man, it seems like
17:32those get inside of me so much deeper
17:36when I've worked through a thought or
17:37two as opposed to just read the chapter
17:40once a morning and then move on with my
17:42day as if it just had nothing else to to
17:44do with my life. Yeah.
17:46And I I think I've come to appreciate
17:48this more and more especially since uh
17:50COVID. Mhm.
17:53Appreciating just coming together as
17:55believers around the world. Now, of
17:57course, I'm a teacher, so that's going
17:59to be a priority for me, but I have seen
18:01it differently now. Rather than me just
18:03teaching people, I see it as we are
18:05coming together around the word of God,
18:08spending time in our day focusing on
18:10what God has to say and what he expects
18:12of us and what he's looking for from us
18:15and us us doing it together. So there's
18:17a a human connection that takes place
18:19Yeah. along with the spiritual
18:21connection with God.
18:22>> Yeah. And to me, that's the beauty of
18:26church. That's the beauty of the
18:29community of believers.
18:31>> Yeah. So talk to me about
18:34if I'm not
18:36called to be this in-depth teacher,
18:38study or
18:40um
18:41what am I still called to? Mhm.
18:43>> I'm still called to engage with the
18:44Bible, read the word. You know, it's not
18:46not for me. Right.
18:48>> So how do I if I'm if I'm in a if I'm in
18:50the mechanic, Yeah. you know, how much
18:53do I still need to engage with and
18:55that's the wrong way to context it cuz
18:57I'm not trying to create a new box for
18:58someone to check, but how is it that I
19:00engage with the Bible and studying the
19:02word um if I don't think I'm that deep
19:05theologian
19:07gifted Mhm. you know, kind of type of
19:10person? So um and again, really
19:13everybody is a theologian. The question
19:15is are we a good theologian?
19:17>> [laughter]
19:17>> Right?
19:18>> Okay, yeah.
19:18>> Cuz everybody has a belief about God.
19:20>> True.
19:20>> Everybody has their beliefs about the
19:22spiritual world and how the things
19:24operate. So we're all theologians, but
19:27in order to be good theologians, we've
19:29got to be in line with the scriptures.
19:30>> Mhm. And again, I think if we study in
19:33community and we study together,
19:36people then are able to take what
19:37they're learning and gathering in that
19:39communal setting Yeah. and then applying
19:41it when they're by themselves
19:43reading the scriptures on their own.
19:44>> Mhm.
19:45I
19:46I am glad that we live in a society
19:49today where we have technology. I've got
19:51so many translations of the Bible on a
19:54YouVersion app that I can download on my
19:57phone for free.
19:58When I was going to Bible school back in
20:00the '70s, if I wanted all these
20:02translations, I would have invested
20:04thousands of dollars and I'd have to
20:06carry around bags.
20:08Yeah, suitcases in order to have that
20:10available to me. And the dictionaries
20:12and the encyclopedias, all the resources
20:15that are so available.
20:17So, we are so blessed in that regard.
20:21On the other hand, if we don't know how
20:23to use them, we can use them to our
20:25detriment.
20:26>> [laughter]
20:28>> We know just enough to get ourselves
20:29into trouble.
20:30Right? And so, that's why I believe
20:32that's the role of the teacher is to is
20:34to help people engage with these
20:36resources and learn how to use them so
20:38that then in their personal times they
20:41can use them for their benefit as well.
20:44They may never engage with it on the
20:46level of teachers and and there's
20:48scholars that I'm amazed at. And I think
20:50boy,
20:51I'm so glad that they do their work so
20:52that I can benefit from it.
20:55So, we all have different places in the
20:57body, different roles, but in the end,
21:00does it help us love God more? Does it
21:02help us to be examples and
21:04representatives of him in a way that
21:06people can look at us and say, "Wow, if
21:08that's what following Jesus looks like,
21:10that really is the better way to go."
21:12So, that's what we want to see happen in
21:15every believer. And we
21:17we don't need to study the scriptures
21:19intensely to get there. You know,
21:23years ago we often would use this this
21:25phrase, the milk of the word and the
21:27meat of the word. And I remember
21:30hearing that the meat of the word was
21:32things like I'm the righteousness of God
21:34in Christ and that I'm
21:35who I am in Christ is the meat.
21:38And I got to got to thinking, "No,
21:40that's more like milk."
21:42That's that's
21:43good stuff. That's easy stuff to take
21:44in.
21:46The meat of the word is love your
21:47neighbor.
21:48>> [laughter]
21:49>> Be kind to one another. Forgive each
21:51other. That's the meat. That's where it
21:54you got to really grind down on this and
21:56and work at it. Um
21:58and so, every believer can do that with
22:01the knowledge that they have of the
22:02scriptures because it doesn't take a
22:04whole lot of scholarly knowledge to
22:06understand what loving our neighbor
22:08looks like. Just read the parable of the
22:10good Samaritan. That's that's simple
22:12enough.
22:13And anybody can understand that reading
22:14that parable.
22:16So,
22:17um
22:18as far as studying the scriptures, I
22:20think that's that's there's a place for
22:22teachers, scholars, and people like that
22:24who do those kind of things that provide
22:26them the tools and the resources for
22:28people to engage with the word on a
22:30level that works in their lives.
22:33Yeah. You still what
22:35I think you said this to me a few times.
22:36You still think every Christian should
22:38should read through cover to cover
22:40multiple times. Yeah. Like you got to
22:42get through it, just
22:43engage with it. Yeah.
22:45Um
22:46I was just reading a book on you said
22:48some some theologians can just so deep
22:51and I love the beauty of it. Um I've
22:53read Romans a number of times. I've read
22:55through the Bible quite a few times and
22:57and then the New Testament, you know,
22:58probably countless times. And I got a
23:00book recently and he
23:02the entire book was on Romans 8.
23:05And I was like, "Wait, I have an entire
23:07book. This is hours of reading and it's
23:10on one chapter of one book and I feel
23:15like I was swimming in the deep end. I
23:16mean, I was
23:17I read each chapter two or three times
23:19before I moved on to the next one. So,
23:22like you're saying, it's amazing there
23:24are people in the body of Christ that
23:25are so gifted and so called to be able
23:28to pull out these truths for us.
23:32How do I trust the Bible?
23:34So, I I maybe I just came to
23:35Christianity.
23:37Maybe I have some friends that are still
23:39skeptical.
23:41What says that the Bible's true or is
23:43real or is relevant or trustable?
23:48How how do I know that I
23:50I can use this as the
23:53both foundation and the
23:55the guide of the compass of my life?
23:57I think it
23:59just in general, how do we learn to
24:00trust anybody?
24:02You engage with them.
24:04You get to know them. You watch their
24:06track record.
24:07And in time, trust is developed.
24:11It's the same thing with the scriptures.
24:13Nobody's really going to come to the
24:15Bible immediately and trust everything
24:17that it says. I still don't believe
24:18everything the Bible says.
24:20I want to know about those.
24:22>> [laughter]
24:23>> Those are the And the reason why I say I
24:24want to hear some of that stuff.
24:26>> why I say that is because
24:28you know, James says faith without works
24:30is dead. How do you know what you
24:31believe? It's by what you do.
24:33Okay, well, I can tell by some of my
24:35actions that I still don't believe some
24:37of the scriptures cuz I don't do them. I
24:39don't follow through with them. They're
24:40not a part of my life yet. Yeah. So, I'm
24:43in process.
24:45So, I'm growing in my trust.
24:48But it's it's it's all a part of that
24:49process of engaging with scriptures.
24:52Watching it over time, how's it working?
24:55Does it does it come come come to pass
24:58as it says it will?
25:00We look at the prophecies especially in
25:01the Bible that prophesied of Christ
25:03coming and we see how he fulfilled so
25:07many of those prophecies.
25:08So, there are a number of different ways
25:10that the Bible has shown itself to be
25:12true.
25:14And truth is truth no matter where you
25:15find it. So, you could go to another
25:18religion and they'll be talking about
25:20loving your neighbor.
25:21Okay, why? Cuz that's the truth.
25:23That that is just the way the world
25:25works. It's meant to work. So, truth is
25:28truth and but the Bible to me is the one
25:31location of the ultimate truth and
25:33that's Jesus himself. No other religion
25:36presents Jesus. And Jesus is God in the
25:40flesh. God is saying, "I I love you
25:42people so much. I want to become one of
25:45you and I want to experience what you're
25:46experiencing so I can truly be the
25:49savior that you need me to be."
25:52And no but no other religion offers
25:53that.
25:54They they offer myths. They offer
25:56stories and they're not even concerned
25:58whether it's historical or not.
25:59But with Christianity, history is very
26:01important. If it's not historical, if it
26:04didn't actually happen, then then what
26:07good does it do? Now, there are
26:08obviously different genres in the Bible
26:10and some genres are metaphorical and
26:12symbolic and allegorical so they didn't
26:14really happen in history, but they
26:16present a truth. But that's only because
26:19it's based on historical truth
26:22that that it makes sense. And so, the
26:25Bible to me has proven itself in many
26:28different ways in my life. I've seen it
26:29work in my life in
26:31many different ways. Um
26:34back in 1981, I think it was, I was
26:37reading through the Bible. I came across
26:38Exodus 15:26 where it says, "I am the
26:40Lord that heals you."
26:42Now, I when I was a kid, I'd been sick a
26:44lot. I think a lot of it's cuz I my
26:46diet. I ate a lot of sugar. My parents
26:48didn't care and I didn't know any
26:50difference.
26:51And but I got was sick a lot and was in
26:53the hospital a lot and all that kind of
26:55stuff.
26:56So, when I read this verse and I'd been
26:58raised in a Pentecostal church that God
26:59is our God will heal you and so forth,
27:01but I always saw it as a hit and miss
27:03type thing.
27:04>> [laughter]
27:05>> So, when I when I read that and I'd read
27:08that verse a number of times, but this
27:09particular time it just jumped out at me
27:12and said, "Terry, I am your doctor."
27:15And I I man, I it just ignited something
27:18in me and I realized, "Okay, God is my
27:21physician, my doctor."
27:23Well, the next day then and I I've
27:25testified about this that I got I woke
27:26up with a headache. And I never get
27:28headaches.
27:29And it was a dull throbbing thing and it
27:32just grew during the day and then
27:33subsided at night and I thought, "Okay,
27:35well, maybe I just need to get some
27:36rest." Next day, same thing. Dull
27:39throbbing headache grew throughout the
27:40day, subsided at night.
27:42This lasted for 9 days and I remember on
27:44the 9th day I was in my office. I was so
27:47tempted to take an Excedrin. I
27:49I was thinking, "Terry, you've done
27:51good. You you've fought the fight. You
27:53just take an Excedrin. You're doing
27:54nobody any good. You're tired and worn
27:56out." And I was so tempted. I could just
27:58see it going down my mouth throat and
28:00then everything would be fine. And all
28:02of a sudden I realized what was going
28:03on. I slammed my fist on the desk. I
28:05said, "No. God is my physician. God is
28:09my doctor."
28:10And after that it broke. So, it was
28:12gone. So, it was [clears throat] a test.
28:14You know, the testing of our faith,
28:16right?
28:17Well, throughout the years then that
28:20that revelation was a commitment then
28:22for me and my family that God is our
28:24physician. And so, we look to him as our
28:27doctor. Not not that medical doctors are
28:29wrong or bad, but so many people go
28:32there first. They look to the medical
28:34field first rather than going to God.
28:36And I think [clears throat] in
28:37especially in America, so much of our
28:39issues are centered around psychosomatic
28:43problems. Or the way we think, the
28:45attitudes we take on, the bitterness,
28:47the whatever, the anxiety creates a lot
28:50of physical problems. But see, when God
28:52is our healer and he's our source, we
28:55find peace. We find
28:57um
28:59not not a Pollyanna
29:02everything is just hunky-dory.
29:05But amidst the storm, there's this sense
29:07of everything's going to be okay.
29:10Now, it takes work to get there.
29:12But I have experienced in my life that
29:14when I follow these things and believe
29:16those things, it works.
29:18It it it just resolves things. It it
29:21turns things around. So, anyway, I
29:23remember
29:25one year our daughter she was I think
29:27third grade or something like that.
29:29She
29:30woke up and she had a fever or
29:32something. So, we didn't take Maybe we
29:35she did go into school, but then the
29:37they said that she had a fever so we
29:38needed to take her home.
29:40So, we took I took her home and put her
29:42in into bed and and
29:45we believed because God is our doctor
29:47that sickness is not an excuse for
29:49anything.
29:50That God's our healer and so let's let's
29:52do what we can to trust him and and let
29:55him work. So I put her to bed, put Vicks
29:58on her chest. She had had a harder time
30:00breathing. So she went to sleep and then
30:02she woke up and she wanted to sit up and
30:04so we went out in the living room and
30:05she was sitting on the couch and all of
30:06a sudden she couldn't breathe. She she
30:10And I tell you as a parent,
30:12that is freaking awesome. The
30:15immediate thing that came into my mind
30:17was call 911.
30:19And I was getting all anxious and all of
30:21a sudden I had to grab myself, no, God,
30:23you are our physician. You are our
30:25doctor. So I went over to her and I laid
30:28my hands on her and I just lightly said,
30:30Alyssa,
30:31breathe. It's okay.
30:34And she caught her breath and everything
30:36was fine after that. But again it's it's
30:40The Bible says that God is our doctor.
30:42Okay, do we believe that? That's the
30:44thing. But it will be tested. So it's
30:46not going to be easy. Well, and so many
30:48people think that God is a magician,
30:51that he just waves his wand and then
30:52fixes everything. And I think that's
30:54where a lot of people get disillusioned
30:57because they expect God to operate in a
30:58particular way that they think he should
31:01operate and then when he doesn't, they
31:03get mad at him
31:05and they think well that Bible stuff
31:06doesn't work. No, no, God never said he
31:09was a magician that he's just going to
31:10wave his wand.
31:12We have to always put our trust in God
31:15in all these different ways. Is he our
31:17peace? Then we've got to trust that he
31:18is our peace. But trusting takes work.
31:22There's an interesting scripture in John
31:236:29 where it says, Jesus said, this is
31:26the work that you must do. Believe on
31:29Jesus Christ whom God has sent.
31:31That's the work. And that is work to
31:34trust in Jesus.
31:36Because it's
31:38everything around us is
31:40begging for our attention, fighting for
31:42our attention. Say no, believe me,
31:43believe me. And Jesus is saying, no,
31:46believe me.
31:47Trust me. And I believe that that's
31:50really the
31:51the main issue here in in our world is
31:55this battle of ideas. Which ideology are
31:59you going to believe? And Jesus is
32:01saying, believe mine. Believe me. I am
32:04the truth.
32:05And so again this is why reading the
32:08Bible is so important because if I don't
32:09understand what the scriptures are
32:11saying,
32:11I don't know what's true
32:13and I don't have any filter to know or
32:15discern what's true.
32:17And but yet the scriptures, the truth of
32:19the scriptures have proven themselves
32:21over and over if people will actually
32:24believe it.
32:25Romans 1:16 says, I'm not ashamed of the
32:27gospel of Christ for it's the power of
32:29God and if you stop there you think,
32:31well yes, see then the then the gospel
32:33itself is is powerful and it'll change
32:35your life. No, to those who believe.
32:38So it always goes back to will we
32:41believe it?
32:42And I'm only going to believe something
32:43if I'm taught it over and over and over
32:46from a credible source.
32:48I've never seen an atom.
32:51And yet I believe in atoms.
32:53There's a diagram in my science textbook
32:56but anybody could draw a diagram. But
32:58why do I believe in atoms? Because year
33:00after year in school, I had a teacher
33:03that I respected telling me there are
33:05atoms.
33:06And I think, okay, well, then I believe
33:08that. I trust that. And and it's just
33:12assumed.
33:13Well, when it comes to the Bible, we
33:16don't read it enough to really get it
33:18that embedded in our lives and then
33:20maybe we don't even respect the source.
33:23We don't maybe we don't respect the
33:25pastors or the teachers or whoever's
33:27presenting the truth
33:28but ultimately then we don't really
33:30respect the source, God himself. We
33:32don't believe that God himself is the
33:34author of the book and that it's just
33:36written by humans. Well, if we have that
33:38attitude, of course then we're going to
33:39look at the Bible like any other book
33:41and not respect it. I guess it was such
33:43a it's such a fascinating and
33:46I mean I I love your take on how do you
33:48build trust cuz I think a lot of people
33:51would instantly go to a defense style.
33:54Well, because we found these scrolls and
33:56this and historically speaking in the
33:58Bible and when it writes about Jesus it
34:00uses all these historical figures who we
34:01can prove existed and
34:03which is all there and true and the
34:06Bible's probably the most studied and
34:08claimed and tested book that's ever
34:10existed on the planet. So you could take
34:12it from that angle of proving its
34:14factual basis of events and people and
34:17historical figures.
34:19Um
34:20but the the flip side is go, no, just
34:22trust it because you you you lean into
34:25it. You experience it. You read it and
34:27see that it proves itself true and
34:29allowing it to grow true in your life
34:32and grow trustworthy in your life is
34:34just like a relationship. And it's it
34:36goes back to this, you're reading the
34:38Bible to to know Jesus, not to check a
34:41box. And the way I trust the Bible is
34:44because I'm learning who Jesus is and
34:46I'm I'm growing in my trust with him.
34:48It's not it's it's not I'm proving the
34:51Bible's true because of facts and
34:52history and
34:54digs and scrolls and all the things that
34:56we could argue about that have proven
34:59why it's true but it's still that's
35:01that's still going back to checking a
35:02box of
35:05you know
35:06as opposed to leaning into the person
35:07behind the whole thing. Yeah.
35:09There are you know we talk about reading
35:12the Bible devotionally or reading it to
35:14study it. It is two different approaches
35:17and both are important.
35:19Some people always want to do either or
35:22but both are important. Do you do both
35:25the same time? Do you separate that? How
35:26do you how do you do that?
35:27>> Yeah, sometimes I do it at the same
35:29time. So like when I especially when I'm
35:30studying for a class that I'm teaching,
35:33of course I'm I'm gathering information
35:35together but I'm always gathering it to
35:37see how it's going to benefit me. How
35:39what can I learn from this?
35:41Um
35:43there's a scripture in Ezra 7:10 which
35:45to me is is my kind of a theme verse for
35:47a teacher where Ezra set his heart to
35:50study the law,
35:51to obey it
35:53and to teach it.
35:55So notice the order, study, obey, then
35:58teach.
35:59And it goes along with Matthew chapter 5
36:01where Jesus said, those who
36:03teach those who do and teach
36:07rather than teach and do. So the the
36:09doing of the word is important before
36:12you teach it. So for me I I always want
36:14to say, okay, what what is this saying
36:16to me?
36:17What can I learn from this? What how
36:20does this change how I view things?
36:22Um and then that helps me reflect on it,
36:25get it so that I understand it better
36:28and that it's a part of me. That way I
36:30can communicate it better to others cuz
36:32if I if I've never really reflected or
36:34thought about it and engaged with it,
36:36then if I teach it it's just going to be
36:38a bunch of dry information and facts
36:40rather than something that comes from an
36:42engagement. And so I I really try to to
36:45do both at the same time but there are
36:48times where you just just need to sit
36:50down with the scriptures
36:51which is hard for me because my tendency
36:53is to want to grab every word and say,
36:54well, wait a minute now, how's this used
36:56here in other places? And no, no, no,
36:58just let the word itself soak in,
37:01meditate on it for a minute and just
37:02think, God, thank you so much. And and
37:05let that be the devotional aspect.
37:08Um
37:09I don't know where I was going with that
37:11but anyway,
37:12that's important part of our engagement
37:15with the word. That's that's how it
37:17becomes applicable to everyone. It's the
37:20husband,
37:21it's study so that you could use this in
37:23your marriage and then it's the dad,
37:26study
37:27so that when you tell your kids we're
37:29Christians, you're actually been obeying
37:30the Bible and leading from your
37:32devotional and study time.
37:35Um and I I mean it's that's how you got
37:37into the Bible to begin with. Your dad
37:38was telling you you got to read your
37:39Bible but then you saw him actually
37:41reading his Bible.
37:43Um and so it's like
37:45study so you can apply it to your life.
37:48Maybe you're not a teacher, a Bible
37:49preacher, a whatever that is but
37:52you're still a Christian. So it's like
37:53live this out in your marriage and your
37:55parenting and your friendships. Yeah. I
37:58heard someone say the other day that the
38:00Bible was written
38:02for me but not to me.
38:04And so understanding the audience the
38:07the author and the audience. So the
38:09gospels are written by four different
38:11men. All the letters are written from
38:13from different apostles to different
38:15church or different personalities and
38:16people.
38:18How much does that matter for us today?
38:20I think it's really important in the
38:23sense that if I don't do that, what I'm
38:26going to do is immediately
38:29interpret a first century document with
38:32a 21st century mentality.
38:34And there that's going to miss it right
38:36there.
38:38Cuz there's a world of difference
38:39between the people that lived under the
38:41Roman rule in the first century and us
38:44living in a democracy.
38:46And so it's
38:47that mindset can often be disconnected
38:50then from the scriptures. And I think
38:52that's why a lot of people find a
38:53disconnect when they read the Bible
38:54because they're trying to
38:56uh see it through their 21st century
38:58lens.
39:00And thank God for scholars and
39:01archaeologists and historians and people
39:03who have done their work to bring us
39:06information from that time period into
39:08our day so that we can understand what
39:11was going on and see from their
39:12perspective. So it's got to to me it's
39:15got to start there. As best as we can,
39:18get into the mind of the original
39:20hearers first. And what would they have
39:22heard when this was spoken?
39:25And then once we understand that, then
39:28we can start seeing how the what the
39:30principle is that we can carry over into
39:33our generation, into our time period.
39:36Um
39:37and so that's that's what we call the
39:39inductive method of study, observation,
39:42interpretation, application. So, if if
39:45I'm going to look at a scripture,
39:47uh you know, "God so loved the world."
39:49Yeah. Okay, well, immediately what I'm
39:51going to say is, "Well, what I think
39:53this is saying" Yeah.
39:55Uh wait a minute. You're interpreting
39:57before you're observing anything. Yes.
39:59Take a
40:00few minutes to even look at that passage
40:03and actually see what is it saying.
40:05Yeah.
40:06And but immediately we want to interpret
40:08it or apply it.
40:09>> Mhm. We've got to take step number one
40:12first. When I was in junior high, we did
40:14this experiment where we had to
40:17write our observations of a candle that
40:18was burning.
40:20And we did it in pairs. And so, me and
40:23this other person, we we were done like
40:25in 15 seconds. We'd written six
40:28observations and we thought we had it
40:29all. The teacher came and we said,
40:31"We're done." The teacher came along,
40:33looked at our list and said, "No, you're
40:34not done." Wow. [laughter] We said,
40:36"What? No, this is everything. This is
40:38all everything." She said, "No, you need
40:40to take more time." Yeah, look at it.
40:42>> we did. And we started seeing things we
40:44hadn't seen before. Wow. And we came up
40:46with more things and a longer list.
40:48>> Mhm. Well, that's See, when we read the
40:50Bible, most of us don't take time to
40:52even observe what it's saying. We think
40:54we know what it's saying cuz we've heard
40:55it maybe preached or whatever, but we
40:57haven't never really taken the time to
40:59see what it's actually saying without
41:01interpreting it. And by doing that, we
41:05actually will let the scripture speak to
41:07us Yeah. rather than us speaking to the
41:10scripture and saying what it should
41:11mean.
41:11>> Yeah. And you know, uh that that is not
41:15helpful.
41:16So, yeah.
41:17>> Okay. As a, you know, I love Jesus, I
41:20love church, I'm you know, but I've
41:21never gone to Bible school. Mhm. How do
41:23I under- start to figure that out? Yeah.
41:26How do I get the background of who the
41:28author is, who the audience is? Is it
41:30just simply getting a study Bible?
41:33How much more time am I signing up for
41:35right now in my in my Bible reading
41:37plan?
41:37>> Right. So, again, I I think we are so
41:41blessed today, you know, like you said,
41:43a study Bible. There are a number of
41:44study Bibles out there that have done
41:46some basic homework for the average
41:48reader. Yeah. So, that when you're
41:50looking going into the let's say the
41:52book of Ephesians, it starts off with an
41:53introduction about the book and the
41:54background. Some really fundamental
41:56things that will help Yeah. uh everyday
41:59reader understand the scriptures better.
42:01>> Yeah. So, we are blessed in that regard.
42:03>> Yeah. And I think those fundamental
42:06things are enough to help uh the average
42:10reader just engage with the scriptures
42:12on a on a new level.
42:14But again, I the reason why God has
42:17given the body teachers is because
42:19teachers have the time to really do the
42:21digging so that they can present some of
42:23these things to people who don't have
42:25the time to dig
42:26so that they can then use those tools to
42:28help them. Now,
42:30most of the scriptures don't need a lot
42:33of analyzing. Mhm. Okay, they're pretty
42:35up front.
42:36>> Yeah. A narrative some a lot of stories
42:38in the Bible that give us basic
42:39fundamental principles and so forth.
42:41>> However, one of the things that happens
42:44is when people read Old Testament
42:45stories, for example, is they moralize.
42:48They say, "Well, the moral of the story
42:50is" Yes.
42:51when really it's it's it may have a
42:54moral there, but that wasn't the
42:55original intention of the scripture. It
42:57was meant to show how God is faithful in
42:59his covenant with his people Israel.
43:01Yeah.
43:02>> even with David and Goliath, you know,
43:04sure, well, look at a young boy uses
43:06sling.
43:07See, you can face any giant. Well, yeah,
43:10that's true, but the purpose of the
43:11story is to show here is an
43:14uncircumcised Philistine railing on the
43:16God of Israel and God shows up in a boy
43:18who's
43:20committed to this covenant of Israel
43:22that God has with Israel and he obeys
43:24God and God shows himself faithful.
43:26Yeah. And that's really what's going on
43:28throughout the entire Old Testament.
43:30>> Yeah. Um and so, a lot of people miss
43:33that though. And and I would miss it if
43:34I wasn't studying, if I wasn't learning
43:36from other people who've done the
43:38research.
43:39So, again, it's this it's this
43:42um
43:42What is it? Paying it forward type of
43:44thing where
43:46I will engage with somebody who's known
43:48been there before me. I will benefit
43:50from it and now I get to pay it forward
43:51and give it to somebody else. And then
43:53they will learn that and be able to give
43:55it to their life group or the people
43:57that they're
43:58associated with.
43:59>> back with making sure you're in
44:00community. Mhm. Working the Bible out
44:02with people.
44:02>> Exactly. I love that. Years ago, I
44:04remember coming to you with a lesson
44:05that I was all excited to preach. And I
44:08I
44:09pitched the main thought to you and
44:10you're like,
44:11"I'm not sure that that's what the
44:13scriptures are actually trying to say. I
44:15think you're stretching it." And I
44:16remember thinking, "Okay, I got to work
44:17this out again." And I remember you
44:19saying, "Listen, your your concept is
44:21biblical, but I think you're using the
44:22story a little too loose." And it's
44:24true. It's like sometimes we'll get a
44:26story that we're all excited about or
44:28verse that you think, "Oh, this is what
44:29it means." And then you when you
44:31dialogue with other believers and other
44:33people that have studied and
44:35it gets you back on track. And it that
44:37way you just don't got you don't start
44:38off track a little bit and all of a
44:40sudden you you live your life two,
44:42three, four, five years and that that's
44:43developed a little too far off and now
44:45you're, you know, out in the boonies
44:47Yeah. because you've just allowed
44:49scripture to be misused to to fit what
44:52you're needing it to fit as opposed to
44:54you fitting into what it is. Yeah.
44:56Yeah. How do you um
44:59help us make sense of the Old Testament?
45:02I mean, it's a big question and we won't
45:03get, you know, we can't answer every
45:05issue in the Old Testament or every
45:06every misunderstanding.
45:08But just as a
45:1021st century person living in America, I
45:14some of it doesn't make sense. You know,
45:16some of it is like, "How could this be
45:17the God of the old and the new? And how
45:20could God want that? And how could God
45:21tell them to do that?"
45:23When I'm reading through the Bible
45:24today,
45:25um how do I process through some of
45:28those
45:29touchiers
45:31verses and stories that are kind of hard
45:33to process? How do you navigate through
45:35[clears throat] that um as a Christian
45:38today?
45:40Yeah. Well, and especially, you know,
45:41the killing of the Canaanites, that's
45:43always a big deal. People don't
45:44understand how could God be so mean and
45:46that's genocide and
45:47>> Yeah.
45:48Okay, well, first of all though, a
45:50person to who would say that is already
45:53showing that they don't regard God as
45:55supreme.
45:56Okay.
45:57They're saying they can tell God what to
45:59do.
46:00>> Yeah.
46:01If if if we can tell God what to do,
46:03he's not God.
46:05That's true.
46:06>> just a puppet. That's true.
46:08>> He's he's in service of us. He's our
46:10slave.
46:12God's not going to be anybody's slave.
46:14He is the one in charge. He's the one
46:16who created everything.
46:17He's also the one who has the right to
46:19judge everything. And so, when he
46:22renders judgment, it's based on who he
46:25is as God.
46:27And sometimes that's not going to make
46:28sense to our pea brains. Yeah. You know,
46:30now, the interesting thing is that was
46:33only done once. God only said to do that
46:35one time. Mhm.
46:37To to wipe out those Canaanites. He
46:39never told Israel or anybody to ever do
46:42that again.
46:44Um but also we do have some insight on
46:46the the Canaanites who lived in the land
46:48at the time, they were sold out to evil
46:52and immorality and corruption. They were
46:54gone.
46:54>> Mhm. They were sacrificing their own
46:56kids. Uh and and brutally. They They
47:00would make these, you know, like one of
47:02the Molech was one of the gods of Moab.
47:04He was a bull god and they they would
47:07make him out of copper
47:09and with his arms outstretched. And then
47:12they would feed the fire through his
47:15probably stomach portal and make it hot
47:18so all the copper would just turn red
47:19hot. Then they'd place their babies on
47:22those hands. And the babies would sizzle
47:26to death. Yeah.
47:28Where does human Where does a human have
47:31to be to do that?
47:32>> Yeah.
47:33And and this was typical. Bestiality was
47:36normal, all that kind of stuff. It was
47:37crazy. Yeah. And so, God was saying,
47:40"No, you need to go in and wipe them
47:42out. There is no redemption for these
47:44people. They are way past the point."
47:46>> Yeah. Which is interesting cuz in
47:48Genesis 15, which is about 500 years
47:50earlier, God appeared to Abraham and
47:52said, "Your people are going to be
47:54entering into that land, but not yet
47:57because the cup of the Amorites is not
47:59yet full." In other words, God had given
48:01500 years for these Amorites to repent
48:05and they didn't. Yeah. So, it wasn't
48:07like God just showed up and all of a
48:08sudden wiped them out.
48:09>> Yeah, yeah. He had warned them. He had
48:11given them all kinds of opportunities to
48:13change and they refused. So, you know,
48:16sometimes we don't think about that and
48:18we think all we see is God ordering them
48:20to be wiped out.
48:21>> Yeah. Um but again, even if God did, he
48:24has every right to. He's the God of the
48:27universe.
48:28And I that premise right there, which is
48:31very typical of our modern age where we
48:33think that we can call the shots,
48:35just shows our arrogance and our hubris.
48:38I I remember one of the uh pastors and
48:41theologians I read the most, he said,
48:43"If just because you can't
48:46come up with a reason,
48:48doesn't mean one doesn't exist." Right.
48:50And Yeah. I think about that even as a
48:52parent, you know, my kids will get upset
48:54at me for, you know, if I say no to
48:55something. And in their mind, there's
48:57zero reason why they can't have that
48:59sugar or that.
49:01But in my mind, I I see a bigger
49:03picture. Uh-huh. And even the smartest
49:06of humanity, even the most astute and
49:08the studied and they we still can't
49:10compare to God. So, you're it's like us
49:12assuming that we could see the whole
49:15picture and because we could see it, we
49:17can make judgments off of it.
49:19>> Yeah. You're right. It's like, "No, you
49:20still got to let God be God." Yeah.
49:23Um as a New Testament or as a believer
49:25today, does the Old Testament is it so
49:27relevant to me? Yeah.
49:29Um and I I didn't really address, you
49:31know, how to understand the Old
49:32Testament. I think if we first if we
49:35have this overall understanding that the
49:37old covenant was an old agreement that
49:40God had with a nation called Israel.
49:42>> Mhm. That's what the Old Testament is
49:43all about is this agreement and
49:45relationship that God had with a
49:47national people called Israel.
49:49>> And it was all leading to the Messiah
49:53who is to come.
49:53>> Mhm. So, when Jesus came, he fulfilled
49:57everything that the old covenant had
49:59been talking about.
50:00>> Mhm. So, it was fulfilled in Jesus.
50:02Therefore, it was no longer necessary.
50:05So, now Jesus has established a new
50:07covenant.
50:08>> Mhm. And so, for to understand the old
50:10covenant, we have to understand that the
50:12prophecies, the the stories, all that is
50:15to show that God has been faithful to a
50:17people called Israel.
50:19When we see that, then we understand
50:22that God will also be faithful to a
50:24people he calls the church. Mhm.
50:26>> Which is comprised of Jews and Gentiles.
50:29It's not just a national group anymore.
50:31It's comprised of people from every
50:33nation and tribe and tongue. Um, and so,
50:36if I don't understand the old, which has
50:39to do a lot with sin and sacrifice, um,
50:42then I'm not going to appreciate what
50:44Jesus did. Okay. I'm I I I can't I'm not
50:47going to see him in context of why did
50:49he even need to come? And why did he
50:51need to die on a cross?
50:52>> Yeah. Right? It just doesn't make sense
50:54or really mean that much to me unless I
50:57realize, "Oh, wow. All those sacrifices
51:00of those innocent animals throughout the
51:02centuries for the sins of the people was
51:04to show that an innocent is going to pay
51:06for the guilty. That's God's way." Yeah.
51:09And that's what we see in Jesus. The
51:10innocent paid for the guilty. That's
51:12what forgiveness is is the innocent is
51:14paying for the guilty. When I forgive
51:16somebody, I was violated, but yet I am
51:19choosing to take on the penalty of that
51:21sin.
51:22>> By not holding it against you.
51:24>> Yeah.
51:25That is impossible to do unless I see it
51:28in the context of this sacrifice of
51:31Jesus in the context of the old
51:34covenant.
51:35And so,
51:37if I if I don't And the old covenant
51:39really sets me up to see why God became
51:42Jewish. Yeah. Right? Why did he become
51:45Jewish? He could have come as a
51:46Ukrainian. He could have come as a South
51:48African.
51:49He came as a Jew. Why?
51:51>> Because his covenant was with a people
51:53called Jews. And he had promised them
51:55that they were going to be blessed and
51:57that through them the earth was going to
51:58be blessed.
51:59>> Yeah. How so? Through a coming of the
52:01Messiah.
52:02>> Yeah. And God showed himself faithful to
52:04his covenant with Israel by becoming one
52:06of them. Yeah. And and of course,
52:08Matthew 1:21 says, "He shall be called
52:11Jesus, for he shall save his people from
52:14their sins."
52:15>> Mhm. So, he became Jewish to save his
52:18Jewish people.
52:19>> Mhm. And again, that just shows his his
52:22faithfulness to his covenant. Well, if
52:23he's that faithful to such an unfaithful
52:25people. And when you read the Old
52:26Testament, you think, "How [laughter]
52:28can these people still be loved by God?"
52:30>> Yeah. Why do they keep doing this?
52:31>> Yeah. And yet God was committed to them.
52:34Mhm.
52:34>> Well, then now we know that he's
52:36committed was committed like that to a
52:37group of people who are so rebellious,
52:40certainly he's going to be committed to
52:41the church that submits themselves to
52:44Christ. And so again, that just it
52:48creates a solid foundation of trust in
52:51the God of the covenant. How much How
52:54much time,
52:55you know, I'm not trying to create a box
52:57again, but
52:59you know, a guideline. God, you know,
53:01kind of
53:02um, helping someone that's leaning into
53:04God. I want to lean into the Bible more,
53:06read How much energy, you know, space
53:09and their time should they invest in
53:11that Old Testament cuz some of that
53:13stuff I mean, I I've studied it, you
53:15know, for years now and it still gets
53:17me, you know, confused and turned around
53:20and especially if you're on like a Bible
53:21reading plan and you're just going
53:22straight Genesis Revelation.
53:24>> Uh-huh. You can hit some chapters in
53:25there and you are you're you're walking
53:27through mud sometimes.
53:28>> Yeah. And you start dreaming about the
53:31day you're going to get to the Gospels
53:32and you're like, "My goodness, please,
53:34uh, Jesus come." But just as a, you
53:36know, a
53:37uh, a
53:38everyday Christian,
53:40um, that isn't, you know, gifted in
53:42study and teaching and um, how much time
53:46can we should we um, is there a healthy
53:50balance to help people just feel,
53:52um,
53:54you know, empowered to study, to read
53:56the Old Testament?
53:58First of all, like we talked about
53:59earlier, first of all, I would recommend
54:01that we all read through the Bible.
54:03>> Yeah. And when you're reading through
54:06the Old Testament, when you come across
54:07passages that don't make sense, don't
54:09try to understand them. Just keep
54:10reading. Okay.
54:11>> Just keep moving on.
54:12>> it easy.
54:12>> Because eventually, you may read
54:14something later on that actually makes
54:16sense of what you didn't understand
54:17earlier. Yeah. Um, Yeah. Now, there are
54:20a couple of things that people always
54:21trip up on is Leviticus and in
54:23Chronicles. So, Leviticus is is the
54:25whole sacrificial system. What in the
54:27world is all Yeah. Okay.
54:29There's a passage in Leviticus 11, I
54:31think, that explains or helps us
54:32understand the the the entire book. God
54:35is giving them these laws to help them
54:37to see that the some things are right
54:39and some things are wrong.
54:40>> Mhm. Some things are acceptable, some
54:42things are not.
54:43>> Mhm. In that day and age, cultures
54:45around Israel, they had no morality.
54:48Everything was okay.
54:49>> Yeah. And so, God was giving them
54:51distinctions to say, "No, even in what
54:53you eat, I'm training you to think Yeah.
54:56>> some things are okay, some things are
54:57not." So, if if you just get that out of
55:01reading Leviticus, that'll that'll
55:02benefit you cuz that that can that can
55:04be translated into modern day language.
55:06Okay, some things are okay and some
55:08things are not. So, don't buy into our
55:11society today that says, "Hey, it's
55:12whatever you feel, you know, it's it's
55:14all relative." No, it isn't. There are
55:16some things that are good, some things
55:18that are bad. I got that from Leviticus.
55:20Okay. Then when you get to Chronicles
55:22and you get all these genealogies, the
55:24begats and all that, what in the world
55:26is that all about? Okay, well, for us,
55:27it doesn't mean much. But for the Jew at
55:30that time, it meant so much because they
55:33were returning from captivity from
55:35Babylon.
55:37And they had to reestablish their their
55:39temple system with a priest and so
55:41forth. Well, how would they know what
55:43who are truly priests, who should
55:44operate in the temple? They would have
55:46to prove their genealogy that they were
55:48descended from Levi.
55:50Okay, well, that's written in Chronicles
55:51to help with that. Well, what about
55:53those people that are returning who want
55:55to get their land back? How can they
55:57prove that they have rights to that
55:59land? They have to show that they were
56:01descended from the particular
56:02forefathers that owned that land. And
56:05that's done through genealogy. So, those
56:08are things that are important to the Jew
56:10at that time, but not to us. So, I don't
56:12need to understand all that. Just keep
56:14reading cuz eventually, you're going to
56:16come across enough in the Old Testament
56:18that's going to hit you between the eyes
56:20and say, "Ooh, boy. I got to change
56:22this." Or, "Man, I don't want to live
56:24like that." Or, "I'm going to learn my
56:26lesson from from this." So, there's lots
56:28of, you know, good things that people
56:29can get from the Old Testament. And some
56:31of the best stories. You just get into
56:32these stories, you're like, "What is
56:34These are incredible." Yeah. I remember
56:36I don't know how much Do you do much
56:38audio Bible? Or is it You mean listening
56:40to audio Bible? You just listen or do
56:41you
56:42occasionally? Okay. Yeah.
56:44I'm like I'm shallower in my faith. I've
56:46always listened [laughter] to
56:48I love listening. Originally, that's how
56:49the Bible was was heard was by
56:51listening. See, oh, so I'm going back to
56:53the original roots. I'm trying to hear
56:54it and
56:55I remember, um,
56:58uh, you know, about a year and a half
56:59ago going through a pretty big struggle
57:01personally with our my family and I had
57:03a health crisis with my kid.
57:05But I remember
57:07it's it's the it's the kind of most
57:09incredible thing. About 2 months before
57:12my oldest Willow gets diagnosed with
57:13cancer. You know, you're familiar with
57:14that.
57:15About 2 months before, I just had on my
57:17heart to get through the Bible as fast
57:19as I could.
57:21And I mean, I've read I mean, I read the
57:22Bible at least every year and the New
57:24Testament quite a bit and
57:26you know, so I you know, I I put into
57:28that study to show yourself approved and
57:30but I just felt get through the whole
57:31thing as much as you can.
57:33And it was about a 7-week journey where
57:36I was reading and listening almost all
57:38day long. I mean, I was trying to get in
57:40as much as I If I was in my car, I was
57:41listening. If I'm working out, I'm
57:43listening. In the morning, I'm reading.
57:44In the evening, I'm I was getting
57:46through as much as I could as fast as I
57:49could and it took me about 7 6 and 1/2
57:51weeks to get through the whole thing. I
57:54was I mean, I had to audio a lot of it
57:56to get that much cuz I'm still working
57:58and parenting and I'm still married and
58:00with my date nights and
58:02and I finished and a few days later, we
58:06found out that Willow had been
58:07diagnosed.
58:09And I remember just in that moment,
58:12one, you know, as a dad, you were
58:13talking about Alyssa earlier, you know,
58:15not being able to breathe and you just
58:16the panic that
58:18but also felt like I was the strongest
58:20in my faith that I'd ever been.
58:23And I was ready for a fight because I
58:26was I was I was prepared for it. You
58:29know, like it was like, "No, I I have
58:30been living in this word.
58:33There haven't There hasn't been a moment
58:34in my day that if it was spare, it
58:36wasn't in God's word."
58:38And I I don't do that, you know, every
58:40It's not every 7 weeks I'm going through
58:41the Bible right now listening or
58:42reading. But it I think it when God is
58:45like, "Lean into to my word." There's a
58:47reason he's wanting us to build up our
58:49faith.
58:50And he didn't promise us that there's
58:53never going to be a struggle. But he is
58:55faithful in all of it. And I remember
58:56just looking back going, "I was I was
58:58prepared for the battle."
59:00But what would have happened if I
59:01wasn't?
59:03What would have happened if I just left
59:04it off? It's not for me or I've already
59:06read it before. I know what's in there.
59:09I'll read a few verses in the morning
59:10and call it a day.
59:12I felt stronger because of the
59:14engagement, the investment, the also
59:17just the sheer word of God. Just
59:19just throughout, you know,
59:21story after story after story of his
59:23faithfulness, of his
59:25mercies, of his healing power, of his in
59:27the valley with me. And I think leaning
59:30into God's word, it is going to build
59:33your faith up. Maybe not in the moment,
59:36but, you know, when you need it.
59:37>> Yeah. You know, it's like you read that
59:39you read a verse that day, read a
59:40chapter that day, you read a whatever it
59:41is, a a letter, a shorter letter that in
59:44a day setting, you might not need it
59:46that day, but you don't know what's
59:47coming next week.
59:48>> Right.
59:49So, just to lean into God's word really
59:53builds you up. Also, it was a challenge
59:54for me. It was a good stretch for me. I
59:57get competitive, so I'm trying to get
59:58there as fast as I can and while still
1:00:00actually processing it, you know, you're
1:00:02not just turning it up as fast as you
1:00:03can. You don't have you have no idea
1:00:04what they're actually saying anymore.
1:00:05>> Yeah. Um but, it built me up in a way
1:00:08that I I I needed that strength for the
1:00:10season that God knew was coming. Yeah.
1:00:14Reading the Bible is good and um
1:00:17because it it slows you down and and it
1:00:20gives you the opportunity to actually
1:00:22stop and and say, "Wait, what's going on
1:00:24here?" But, that can also be a problem.
1:00:27When you listen to the scriptures, you
1:00:29don't do it that way.
1:00:30>> Mhm. It just it just kind of pours over
1:00:33you.
1:00:33>> Mhm. And so, you're you're highlighting.
1:00:35You're you're skipping over the top.
1:00:37You're getting the the the the
1:00:38highlights,
1:00:39which to me is interesting cuz when I uh
1:00:42there was a uh
1:00:44few years back, I decided I was just
1:00:46going to listen to scripture on audio
1:00:47for a while and
1:00:49I noticed that the vocabulary of the
1:00:52Bible, the words that uses are so
1:00:55different than our everyday language.
1:00:57>> Mhm. So, it transports you to a
1:00:58different world. Mhm. And when you read
1:01:00it, you don't observe it as much, but
1:01:02when you hear it, when you listen to it,
1:01:04the vocabulary for it it's it's
1:01:06different. It it you it causes you to
1:01:08think about different terms and
1:01:10different ideas. It's it's always
1:01:12talking about this heavenly place and
1:01:14and spiritual places in Christ and
1:01:16blessings in the Lord and and it's it's
1:01:18you don't use that language everyday.
1:01:20>> [clears throat]
1:01:20>> So, immediately you're transported to a
1:01:22different world and I think listening to
1:01:25the scriptures is very very important
1:01:27and I think because Mhm.
1:01:29>> again, we're so blessed with technology,
1:01:31we can do that. We We don't have to go
1:01:33to a synagogue to hear somebody read the
1:01:35scriptures. We can do it on our own, but
1:01:38take advantage of that and and so, I
1:01:40think listening to them, the scriptures
1:01:42are very important. Reading them has its
1:01:44benefits,
1:01:45>> Yeah. but uh don't dismiss one or the
1:01:48other. I think both are good. Do you,
1:01:51from your expert opinion, value all
1:01:53translations? Is there is there value to
1:01:56different translations?
1:01:59Um
1:02:00You know, there's a lot out there today.
1:02:01>> Yeah. From paraphrase and it's and so,
1:02:04some of them that are easier easier to
1:02:06understand, are they as true are they as
1:02:09real as they as are they as valuable?
1:02:11You know, are those the real Bibles?
1:02:13Yeah.
1:02:13>> Um you know,
1:02:15can you speak to your expertise and just
1:02:18your perspective on on the the
1:02:21differences? Yeah, I think I call them
1:02:23tiers or layers.
1:02:24>> Okay. So, level one should be a
1:02:27translation that's more what we call um
1:02:31uh formally equivalent.
1:02:33>> Okay. It's it's trying to translate as
1:02:36much as possible word for word from the
1:02:38original languages. So, that way
1:02:41the translators are not interpreting the
1:02:43passages for you. Okay. They're just
1:02:45trying to give you what the original
1:02:47Greek and Hebrew would have communicated
1:02:49in English. Now, there's never going to
1:02:51be an exact word of for word. If that
1:02:53was the case, it'd really be hard to
1:02:54read.
1:02:55>> Yes. But,
1:02:56uh there are some formal equivalents
1:02:58like uh ESV, uh King James, NASB, um
1:03:04they're they do as little interpretation
1:03:06as possible. So, that that allows you
1:03:08then to dig in and see what it's saying
1:03:11for yourself. I think that should be a
1:03:13level one reading. That's where you
1:03:15should start.
1:03:16Then, you have a level two where it's
1:03:19like a New Living Translation to me,
1:03:21where a committee has come together and
1:03:25interpreted some of these passages that
1:03:27maybe are a little bit more difficult
1:03:29>> Mhm. and given us a possible
1:03:32interpretation of how this should be
1:03:34Okay.
1:03:34>> Yeah. received. Okay, so that helps
1:03:37unlock maybe you were reading that level
1:03:39one passage in NASB or whatever and it
1:03:41wasn't making sense. The wording wasn't
1:03:43quite jiving. So, then you go to NLT and
1:03:45it may say it in such a way that it kind
1:03:47of unlocks, "Oh, okay, that's the
1:03:49approach I should take."
1:03:50>> And then, level three would be like
1:03:52paraphrase, like a Message Bible, uh
1:03:55Good News Translation,
1:03:58um
1:03:59Amplified. So, those things then can
1:04:03really help maybe give a different
1:04:05perspective.
1:04:06>> Mhm. But, I think all three are
1:04:08important and I always remember
1:04:10listening to a scholar who was asked the
1:04:13question, "Which translation is the best
1:04:15one to read
1:04:16best translation?" He said, "The one you
1:04:18read."
1:04:18>> Yes. Right? So, just read something.
1:04:21>> Yeah. Um
1:04:21>> Whatever one you're going to get into.
1:04:22>> Yeah. So, I wouldn't recommend making
1:04:25the Message Bible or the Passion
1:04:26Translation your your fundamental
1:04:28reading. Um
1:04:30because as a one person's
1:04:31perspective, but
1:04:34uh you can use it as a third tier
1:04:36supplement to kind of help bring a
1:04:39different perspective.
1:04:40>> How do you Okay, last question for you
1:04:42today. Mhm.
1:04:44How do I hear from God when I read? Mhm.
1:04:46So, you know, that's a big question to
1:04:48end with, but
1:04:50how do I
1:04:52you know, I I I want to hear God. I want
1:04:54you know, I I think every Christian
1:04:55wants to hear God more. How
1:05:00>> How do I
1:05:02read that verse or two, read that
1:05:04chapter two, read that story or that
1:05:06letter and go, "Okay, that was God
1:05:09talking talking to me."
1:05:11Okay, so my first response
1:05:13>> Well, yeah, my first response is what do
1:05:15we mean when we say hear from God?
1:05:17What's what are we looking for?
1:05:19What does that what's what kind of
1:05:21experience is that you're looking for?
1:05:22>> me. I want the heavens to open.
1:05:24>> [laughter]
1:05:25>> I want an audible voice. I still haven't
1:05:27gotten that yet, but
1:05:29>> if you're going to give me an option,
1:05:30I'm going to make it as clear for me cuz
1:05:32I am a C student with no degree. So, I
1:05:34need it to be all just write it on the
1:05:36wall like Daniel, but but but
1:05:39practically speaking.
1:05:40>> Okay. Yeah, so again, I think we really
1:05:42need to be clear in what we mean by
1:05:44hearing from God. Number one, when
1:05:46you're reading the Bible, you are
1:05:47hearing from God.
1:05:48>> Mhm. That's God's word
1:05:51>> a record.
1:05:51>> That's a great perspective.
1:05:52>> He He wrote it down. Yeah. It's it's
1:05:54it's like saying I received a letter
1:05:56from my wife when she was overseas and
1:05:58but I really want to hear from my wife.
1:06:00That's [laughter] so true.
1:06:01>> I just heard from her. She wrote me a
1:06:03letter.
1:06:04>> Um and that's what the Bible is.
1:06:06>> Yeah. So, it's a it's the recording of
1:06:08God's uh word to us. And I am so glad
1:06:13for it. So, every time I'm reading the
1:06:15Bible, I'm hearing from God.
1:06:16>> Yeah. Now, I think so what we're
1:06:18referring to is the subjective
1:06:20experience of feeling like it's God
1:06:22himself just riveted this scripture in
1:06:24my life and
1:06:25>> Okay, I think there are times where the
1:06:26Holy Spirit does illuminate a passage
1:06:29where the light goes on. It's a we call
1:06:31it an epiphany.
1:06:32>> Mhm. We call it your healing verse. Like
1:06:34it just hits you. It really connects.
1:06:37>> And um and those
1:06:40times are awesome, but if we're relying
1:06:42on those experiences to be our common
1:06:44everyday experience, then we are going
1:06:46to be disappointed.
1:06:47>> Yeah. Because that's
1:06:49just by reading the Bible, we're hearing
1:06:51from God.
1:06:52>> Mhm. There are times though where God
1:06:54will take a passage and will hit you
1:06:56right in the heart because that's where
1:06:58you are right now and it is a vital
1:07:00need.
1:07:01>> Mhm. And uh it's it's like a it's a
1:07:04wake-up call.
1:07:04>> Mhm. Um and then those those are
1:07:07important, but they I don't think
1:07:08they're the norm.
1:07:09>> Mhm. And when we're looking for that to
1:07:11be the norm, see, that's why I think
1:07:13people get discouraged in reading the
1:07:14Bible because they'll go days without
1:07:15having that experience and thinking that
1:07:17God's not speaking to them.
1:07:18>> Yes. Yes.
1:07:20But, he is.
1:07:20>> He is.
1:07:21>> Yeah, every time you read, he's
1:07:22speaking.
1:07:23>> Yeah.
1:07:24Man, that's such a great perspective to
1:07:26shift our
1:07:27engagement when we open the word to go,
1:07:29"If as long as I read, he's speaking."
1:07:32Mhm. And uh and this for me and then it
1:07:34goes to that next level where the Holy
1:07:35Spirit comes in and, you know, really
1:07:38you know, convicts you, challenges us,
1:07:41loves us, brings that peace into our
1:07:44life. Um and just the consistency of it.
1:07:48Sometimes we feel like I just need a
1:07:49revelation, a big moment.
1:07:51>> Mhm. But,
1:07:53if you just follow him daily, it's
1:07:55easier actually to become like Jesus
1:07:57with small steps than thinking I need
1:07:59these big massive trans
1:08:01transformations. Can you imagine if you
1:08:04got a massive revelation every day you
1:08:06read the Bible?
1:08:07>> [laughter]
1:08:07>> You wouldn't be able to handle it.
1:08:09>> There's no way. I mean, the depths of of
1:08:12what God is saying, to get a revelation
1:08:14of that, a one revelation can carry you
1:08:16for years. Right. Right. You you
1:08:19[clears throat] think of the Old
1:08:20Testament when God spoke to Abraham, he
1:08:21didn't speak to Abraham every day.
1:08:23>> Yeah. Spoke to him once every 10, 15
1:08:25years.
1:08:26>> Yes. Right?
1:08:27>> Yeah. And that's all he needed.
1:08:28>> Yeah.
1:08:29>> One word from God that'll that'll take
1:08:30care of you. So, when we're looking for
1:08:32revelation or this experience of, "Oh,
1:08:35wow, God really sh
1:08:37Okay, you can't live at that level every
1:08:39day. That
1:08:40we couldn't handle it.
1:08:41>> Yeah. Um so, to me,
1:08:45God has gifted us with the Bible to say,
1:08:48"Okay, you want to hear from me? Open it
1:08:49up." Yeah. Man, that's so good. Man,
1:08:51well, thanks so much for being here
1:08:53today with us breaking down just the
1:08:54word and I think so many Christians
1:08:57value the Bible,
1:08:59want to read it more, uh wants to engage
1:09:01with God more and I think most most
1:09:04people really have that pursuit or that
1:09:06desire to pursue Jesus, but making it
1:09:08practical, making it, you know,
1:09:10applicable to us and um and just that
1:09:13understanding that when you open your
1:09:14word, that's a letter God [music]
1:09:17already wrote to you. So, he already is
1:09:18speaking. Mhm. Man, I believe it's going
1:09:20to help a lot of us today. Thanks for
1:09:21being here. Yeah, glad to be here. Thank
1:09:24you.
1:09:31>> Mhm.

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